Deathnipping Warchanter

[geezee]

Here's an idea I had for a TWF warchanter. Just wondering what people think before I roll. Requires 32 point build and a DEX tome.

Human Bard 14/Barbarian 2
16 16 14 8 8 14, levelups into STR
feats: WFierce, PA, TWF, ITWF, oversized TWF, IC: pierce, GTWF

The idea is to dual wield heavy picks, and eventually deathnips. More DPS and survivability than the "Icy" build, which has been my favorite bard so far. Should be pretty nasty, eh?

[EinarMal]

Here's an idea I had for a TWF warchanter. Just wondering what people think before I roll. Requires 32 point build and a DEX tome.

Human Bard 14/Barbarian 2
16 16 14 8 8 14, levelups into STR
feats: WFierce, PA, TWF, ITWF, oversized TWF, IC: pierce, GTWF

The idea is to dual wield heavy picks, and eventually deathnips. More DPS and survivability than the "Icy" build, which has been my favorite bard so far. Should be pretty nasty, eh?

I wonder if deathnips would be better than khopesh without Barbarian crit rage? I bet they are pretty close, those new green steel khopesh look pretty nasty.

[geezee]

Havent seen the green khopesh yet, but that would require another feat. The main thing I'm debating is if 2 levels of rogue would be worth it for evasion and lockpicking.

[Schmackdown]

It doesn't look sufficiently different from your other build- both are built for DPS, and I don't see what the two levels of barb really get you past a few junior rages, a bit more HP, martial weapons and some speed on the ground. Why not just swap out some feats on your current Icy build to tinker?

(note that if I were answering this question, I'd just say that the build is so **** fun to play that you want to level another one all the way to the cap. I did that on one of my builds, and had a blast. So more power to you if that's the case.)

IMO deathnips are a bit overrated on all but full barbs. If you already have the tome pages to get them, great, but spending the plat or grinding for them is a PITA ime.

I don't know if oversized TWF is really worth it. Have you tinkered with swinging two heavy weapons on your Icy build sans oTWF and noticed you're missing more often? I don't see much difference on my TWF builds atm. Until you get the 'nips, is having a heavy pick offhand really worth it over a light pick? It's 1d6 vs. 1d4, and imo the mods you can pile on to leverage the x4 crit to the hilt means more than the additional 2-12 damage. Elemental/alignment burst light picks of maiming and seeker on your specs or trinket, that sort of thing.

I like the rogue levels over the barb, to tell you the truth. But I'm having trouble discerning what you find attractive about those two barb levels- can you expand on it?

[EinarMal]

If the goal is to really crank out the DPS for a Bard the best way to go is Rogue. With only 4 levels of Rogue (eventually) you get 2d6 +4(Enh.) +5(Backstabbing) = 16 more damage per swing.

I have a strength based Bard/Rogue, only Bard 8/Rogue 2 at the moment and I can tell you sneak attacks do make a difference. Even with only 1d6 + 2, 5.5 more damage per swing on top of Bard buffs makes a difference.

Something like Bard 14/Rogue 4/Fighter 2 would be a really powerful DPS build with TWF. Think about this, that +16 damage per swing from sneak attacks is like adding a big fat +32 to you strength score.

I find that as long as you do not grab sight agro first, you do end up getting a lot of sneak attack swings in.

So, I guess I would pick Rogue over Barbarian for evasion and DPS. I think if you tried it you would really like it. People way underestimate what even 4 levels of Rogue can do for DPS.

I have a build somewhere, in my build thread I think but it is similiar to every other Drow TWF for the most part. I am planning on Bard 13/Rogue 3 to the current cap now. The fighter level comes at level 20 for STWF if/when they put that in.

[geezee]

Very good points, Schmack.

2 levels of barb get you 3 rages on a warchanter, martial proficiency, sprint, and faster run.

Human is a bit better than Drow for picks because you cant use Drow melee enhancements, but you get skill boost, human recovery, 4 more points of CON, the extra STR point which gets you to 30 standing STR in the end game, and the extra feat, all at a cost of 2 CHA.

The -4 penalty for not taking oversized TWF can be noticable, depending on what youre fighting.

[skraus1]

The main thing I'm debating is if 2 levels of rogue would be worth it for evasion and lockpicking.

Evasion is very noticable, and this builds should have a decent reflex save.

Bard gets a decent amount of skill points so unlike batman builds that need a 15 or 17 int to rogue effectively, bards only need an 11 or 13 int. OL, DD, and Search = 6 cc skill points UMD and Perform need 2, so 8 total skill points per level to do everything without relying too much on the second rogue level skill points. As a human you might be able to get away with an int as low as 9 +1 tome, but all of your skills won't be able to be maxed all the time.

The kopesh is +5 1d10 and normal otherwise. You can get it upgraded further.

[Schmackdown]

The -4 penalty for not taking oversized TWF can be noticable, depending on what youre fighting.

I guess it comes down to the percentage of typical mobs you face where it's actually noticeable- I think what I'm missing here is that I don't use Power Attack for anything, so the -4 would be heaped on top of the -5 from PA, which could make a big difference. Regardless, I think it's a build decision based on said percentage- if it's noticeable for 70%+ mobs you face, sure, it makes sense. But if it's for 20% of mobs or something, I'd start to wonder if you'd be better off with a good bane light pick, or a simple destruction utility weapon on the hard targets to effectively eliminate that -4 penalty.

If you have depth of experience with DDO mobs, which you do, you'll know when you think that -4 would make a difference and adjust accordingly. But again, if it's a large %age of mobs, oTWF fits well.

I don't think there's another obvious feat out there to take for this build rather than oTWF anyway, though. The usual suspects(Extend, FoP) are all I can come up with. Weapon Spec might fit the DPS synergy.

[skraus1]

If the goal is to really crank out the DPS for a Bard the best way to go is Rogue. With only 4 levels of Rogue (eventually) you get 2d6 +4(Enh.) +5(Backstabbing) = 16 more damage per swing.

I have a strength based Bard/Rogue, only Bard 8/Rogue 2 at the moment and I can tell you sneak attacks do make a difference. Even with only 1d6 + 2, 5.5 more damage per swing on top of Bard buffs makes a difference.

Something like Bard 14/Rogue 4/Fighter 2 would be a really powerful DPS build with TWF. Think about this, that +16 damage per swing from sneak attacks is like adding a big fat +32 to you strength score.

I find that as long as you do not grab sight agro first, you do end up getting a lot of sneak attack swings in.

So, I guess I would pick Rogue over Barbarian for evasion and DPS. I think if you tried it you would really like it. People way underestimate what even 4 levels of Rogue can do for DPS.

I have a build somewhere, in my build thread I think but it is similiar to every other Drow TWF for the most part. I am planning on Bard 13/Rogue 3 to the current cap now. The fighter level comes at level 20 for STWF if/when they put that in.

I don't know, maybe it's because I had a lot of rogues in early game, or maybe it's the fact my guild traditionally has had a lot of defensive fighters and vorpal users, but I really don't see backstabbing as adding a whole lot of dps. Oh, I understand that if you get them they add a WHOLE LOT of dps, but the fact that you're getting them means you will be drawing aggro. That was the whole advantage of the rogue subtlebackstabber enhancements + the reaver SS, getting sneak attack eternally without aggro. Bards don't get those, and therefore can't count on not getting aggro.

Literally about the only character types that Zhaffy doesn't draw aggro within 2-4 sneak attack GA hits on are full bore DPS Barbarians, frequently with dual dithnips. So for the 5 secs that mob is alive, they never swing at Zhaffy. Other than that, Zhaffy must plan on drawing aggro. I literally have given up trying to do support style melee, because it just doesn't work for me. Instead, the guild rogues follow Zhaffy around unless a barbarian is in the group.

I guess my point can be explained this way: some backstab is great. Too much and it can harm your character more (by not allowing you to take something more beneficial) than help unless you run with a whole lot of DPS based toons. If you run with defensive fighters and special effect builds, you're going to be getting lots of aggro unless you too go special effect in which case your dps doesn't matter a whole lot anymore.

In short, I think backstabber gloves+2 levels of rogue+weapon specialization is better than Backstabber gloves + 4levels rogue because the fighter 4/rogue 2 does better with aggro than the rogue 4/Fighter 2......however, people are tending to save fighter 4 for level 20 so they can get STWF so that is kind of a moot point now.

In my mind, the degree that sneak attack is useful really depends on who you tend to group with and therefore the degree to which you draw aggro.

My 2 cents

[maddmatt70]

It doesn't look sufficiently different from your other build- both are built for DPS, and I don't see what the two levels of barb really get you past a few junior rages, a bit more HP, martial weapons and some speed on the ground. Why not just swap out some feats on your current Icy build to tinker?

(note that if I were answering this question, I'd just say that the build is so **** fun to play that you want to level another one all the way to the cap. I did that on one of my builds, and had a blast. So more power to you if that's the case.)

IMO deathnips are a bit overrated on all but full barbs. If you already have the tome pages to get them, great, but spending the plat or grinding for them is a PITA ime.

I don't know if oversized TWF is really worth it. Have you tinkered with swinging two heavy weapons on your Icy build sans oTWF and noticed you're missing more often? I don't see much difference on my TWF builds atm. Until you get the 'nips, is having a heavy pick offhand really worth it over a light pick? It's 1d6 vs. 1d4, and imo the mods you can pile on to leverage the x4 crit to the hilt means more than the additional 2-12 damage. Elemental/alignment burst light picks of maiming and seeker on your specs or trinket, that sort of thing.

I like the rogue levels over the barb, to tell you the truth. But I'm having trouble discerning what you find attractive about those two barb levels- can you expand on it?

I dual wield deathnips on rabiez my warchanter (pure 16 bard). I really like them for the following reasons: 1. it is easier and less expensive to get 2 sets of tomes then two sets of greater banes or a w/p with some other quality weapons. This was especially true when everybody was running the litany in the last mod, although it is a little less true now. 2: you can use them on crittable red named. 3: they do alot of dps. A battle bard when taken in isolation does more damage then any other class other then maybe a barbarian so the damage numbers per x4 makes more sense... 4: If I run with wizards or sorcs who flesh to stone or mass hold monster I do a ridiculous amount of damage.. See gianthold...

[maddmatt70]

I guess it comes down to the percentage of typical mobs you face where it's actually noticeable- I think what I'm missing here is that I don't use Power Attack for anything, so the -4 would be heaped on top of the -5 from PA, which could make a big difference. Regardless, I think it's a build decision based on said percentage- if it's noticeable for 70%+ mobs you face, sure, it makes sense. But if it's for 20% of mobs or something, I'd start to wonder if you'd be better off with a good bane light pick, or a simple destruction utility weapon on the hard targets to effectively eliminate that -4 penalty.

If you have depth of experience with DDO mobs, which you do, you'll know when you think that -4 would make a difference and adjust accordingly. But again, if it's a large %age of mobs, oTWF fits well.

I don't think there's another obvious feat out there to take for this build rather than oTWF anyway, though. The usual suspects(Extend, FoP) are all I can come up with. Weapon Spec might fit the DPS synergy.

By the way I nearly always have power attack on with the deathnips and I dont have otwf. I try to use divine power clickies and will occasionally use human versatilitiy attack boost, but I prefer to use damage boosts where possible to make up the difference..

[geezee]

Yeah, I cant imagine running a warchanter with PA off all the time. Especially with picks, when the difference is 20 damage per crit.

Now I'm leaning towards 13 bard/2 rogue/1 barb.

[EinarMal]

I don't know, maybe it's because I had a lot of rogues in early game, or maybe it's the fact my guild traditionally has had a lot of defensive fighters and vorpal users, but I really don't see backstabbing as adding a whole lot of dps. Oh, I understand that if you get them they add a WHOLE LOT of dps, but the fact that you're getting them means you will be drawing aggro. That was the whole advantage of the rogue subtlebackstabber enhancements + the reaver SS, getting sneak attack eternally without aggro. Bards don't get those, and therefore can't count on not getting aggro.

Literally about the only character types that Zhaffy doesn't draw aggro within 2-4 sneak attack GA hits on are full bore DPS Barbarians, frequently with dual dithnips. So for the 5 secs that mob is alive, they never swing at Zhaffy. Other than that, Zhaffy must plan on drawing aggro. I literally have given up trying to do support style melee, because it just doesn't work for me. Instead, the guild rogues follow Zhaffy around unless a barbarian is in the group.

I guess my point can be explained this way: some backstab is great. Too much and it can harm your character more (by not allowing you to take something more beneficial) than help unless you run with a whole lot of DPS based toons. If you run with defensive fighters and special effect builds, you're going to be getting lots of aggro unless you too go special effect in which case your dps doesn't matter a whole lot anymore.

In short, I think backstabber gloves+2 levels of rogue+weapon specialization is better than Backstabber gloves + 4levels rogue because the fighter 4/rogue 2 does better with aggro than the rogue 4/Fighter 2......however, people are tending to save fighter 4 for level 20 so they can get STWF so that is kind of a moot point now.

In my mind, the degree that sneak attack is useful really depends on who you tend to group with and therefore the degree to which you draw aggro.

My 2 cents

You actually can take subtle backstabbing I with 4 levels of Rogue which helps a bit, you can also use treason if you want to or a plain diplo weapon and backstabbing gloves. If you are building with skills in mind fighter levels really stink, and you get better reflex saves for evasion so there are other reasons to avoid them. To each his own, I find I do get a lot of sneak attack damage with my Bard. It also lets you use debuff type weapons if you wish and still crank out very good damage. For example I can use a paralyzer, and still do ok in the kill department because of the extra sneak damage for an otherwise inferior DPS weapon. Personally I prefer Bard 14/Rogue 4/Fighter 2, but you can of course do whatever, going Bard 14/Fighter 4/Rogue 2 is probably only a little worse. Your build is not a TWF build, which changes quite a bit the value of sneak attacks and how agro is generated. You tend to do more smaller hits with a rapier and less big crits that quickly grab agro.

It also is good for bypassing DR for things like wounding in the off hand, if you want to use a light weapon like a shortsword. I think it is nice in that it opens up more weapon choices like enfeebling, curspewing, etc...without totally killing your damage output. Leading in kills is all well and good but sometimes a nice debuff offhand weapon helps the group more in the end.

The other problem with a 4 Fighter Bard build is you cannot take weapon spec and STWF, so you really don't even get the +2 you are talking about.

[EinarMal]

Yeah, I cant imagine running a warchanter with PA off all the time. Especially with picks, when the difference is 20 damage per crit.

Now I'm leaning towards 13 bard/2 rogue/1 barb.

I think this is a good build, although personally I would take the fighter feat over the run speed. It is not huge though, running fast is a really cool "feat" in and of itself. The DR boost is awesome at low levels as well, like a free stoneskin light.

The one problem is you will not be able to get STWF with that type of build as you would need a 2nd level of fighter later on to grab the feat when you have the BAB for it.

[geezee]

I'm not holding my breath for STWF. I'll probably be playing another MMORPG by the time these devs get their **** together.

[EinarMal]

I'm not holding my breath for STWF. I'll probably be playing another MMORPG by the time these devs get their **** together.

By Crom you must always plan to level 20

[brshelton]

I wonder if deathnips would be better than khopesh without Barbarian crit rage? I bet they are pretty close, those new green steel khopesh look pretty nasty.

yes they beat khopeshes

[geezee]

By Crom you must always plan to level 20

I bet my Lich will be level 20 by the time we ever see STWF.

[A_Sheep]

RE: The Khopesh vs. Deathnip

I've run a bit of math with Taalisyn and if you have mentau's goggles (seeker +4), then a +5 Holy Khopesh of Pure good is 2 DPS ahead (about 1%) of deathnip's (and with the higher seeker bonus, Deathnip pulls ahead at higher and higher ACs.

So, the estimated difference is really nothing. As bonuses to damage increase (Human Daamge boost or something), deathnip pulls ahead. If you have martial proficiencies, then deathnip doesn't cost a feat and saves you a seeker slot, so I'd say the deathnip route is probably better than the khopesh route. +5 Holy Pure good khopeshes are pretty rare (high demand), too, although as the Eldritch system becomes more powerful/used this perhaps might change.

[Mad_Bombardier]

+5 Holy Pure good khopeshes are pretty rare (high demand), too, although as the Eldritch system becomes more powerful/used this perhaps might change.

Yup. In the new raid, +5 Holy Green Steel Khopeshes of Good Burst are relatively easy to make. When they fix "good burst" (or update the description), then it should be wonderful.