2-Year Anniversary is the PERFECT time

[GuitarHero]

I was pointing out that saying WOTC put it out also isn't an argument for it.

Sorry but complete respecs still make no sense from a roleplaying, background, balance, logistical, or common sense point of view.
You make your choices in life and you live with them. Same thing with your character. It's not gonna happen.

well, in a certain sense, it could. Take a real life example. When i was in high school, i played a lot of sports. And i mean a LOT of sports. My sister played as well, and even though she was 5 years younger than me, she still wanted to play with me, and therefore was pushed to be my equal, rather than be on par with her peers. As a result, her athletic career soared due to that push, and she plays on a college scholarship right now. However, I recieved several knee injuries in short sucession, thereby benching me for a while. During this time, i took up writing. Now, even though my knee is *mostly* healed, I don't have near the skill i formerly had, only a few years ago. But i am a much more skilled writer. At a tabletop game, i wouldn't let my players do it on a whim, but i could understand trading out a bit here or there for something equitable.

[Invalid_86]

well, in a certain sense, it could. Take a real life example. When i was in high school, i played a lot of sports. And i mean a LOT of sports. My sister played as well, and even though she was 5 years younger than me, she still wanted to play with me, and therefore was pushed to be my equal, rather than be on par with her peers. As a result, her athletic career soared due to that push, and she plays on a college scholarship right now. However, I recieved several knee injuries in short sucession, thereby benching me for a while. During this time, i took up writing. Now, even though my knee is *mostly* healed, I don't have near the skill i formerly had, only a few years ago. But i am a much more skilled writer. At a tabletop game, i wouldn't let my players do it on a whim, but i could understand trading out a bit here or there for something equitable.

Sounds like you took a bit of stat damage, which lowered your overall modifier in Skill: Athletics. However you didn't lose and skill points spent, nor did you trade in any levels of Athlete for Writer. You just became higher level overall. Guitar Hero Level 18 FTW!

Now if they give use Presitge Class Sports Writer you may qualify for it. Although knowing our luck it will be a Bard enhancement and most people who want it will not qualify!

Oh man, I slipped into serious nerdspeak there. Suffice to say if you are playing in a group with an involved DM you might make this work. In DDO, not so much.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Man, Guitar Hero, or G-Funk as we call him, is a level 1 n00b.

As for the OP, well, is a skill respec VAST and MYSTERIOUS? No? Then thats not what we're getting.

VAAAST AND MYSTERIOUS!!!!!

[QuantumFX]

I was pointing out that saying WOTC put it out also isn't an argument for it.

Actually my problem is with the fact that the other guy wants to ignore it because HE doesn't like it. It's a real rulebook, and nothing anyone here says is going to change that. It's wishful thinking on his part to say that it doesn't exist and isn't part of the argument.

Sorry but complete respecs still make no sense from a roleplaying, background, balance, logistical, or common sense point of view.
You make your choices in life and you live with them. Same thing with your character. It's not gonna happen.

Actually I'd rather have a choice of remort (reroll with bound gear, must earn all XP over again) and retrain (Keep all gear, Favor, XP, must choose from the original classes you have in your build and must keep original race.) options.

Remort is a way to encourage people to enjoy content again without making the grind manditory. The common sense PoV is that other games have it and it's considered fun by some players. (Otherwise people wouldn't start threads asking for a feature like it.) I don't like the idea of magically going from a level 16 dwarf fighter to a level 16 drow wizard unless the player actually has to play through the new class. (I have no problem with moving bound gear from one to the other though.)

Retraining actually has a basis in reality and doesn't destroy the role the player has in groups. A tank is still a tank, a caster is still a caster. Skills are honed and skills are forgotten. Physical and mental attributes do change in reality.

[Pellegro]

Full respec FTW.

[Invalid_86]

Actually my problem is with the fact that the other guy wants to ignore it because HE doesn't like it. It's a real rulebook, and nothing anyone here says is going to change that. It's wishful thinking on his part to say that it doesn't exist and isn't part of the argument.

There is alot of "real" rulebooks out there, most of which are of dubious use.

Actually I'd rather have a choice of remort (reroll with bound gear, must earn all XP over again) and retrain (Keep all gear, Favor, XP, must choose from the original classes you have in your build and must keep original race.) options.

That's where the balance problem comes in. All you are doing is making a refined ubercharacter.

Remort is a way to encourage people to enjoy content again without making the grind manditory. The common sense PoV is that other games have it and it's considered fun by some players. (Otherwise people wouldn't start threads asking for a feature like it.) I don't like the idea of magically going from a level 16 dwarf fighter to a level 16 drow wizard unless the player actually has to play through the new class. (I have no problem with moving bound gear from one to the other though.)

Other games have alot of things that players consider fun that have no place in DDO. And actually more gear should be bound- and if the new raid/damage rules are an indication the devs are starting to realize that.

Retraining actually has a basis in reality and doesn't destroy the role the player has in groups. A tank is still a tank, a caster is still a caster. Skills are honed and skills are forgotten. Physical and mental attributes do change in reality.

Yes people lose attribute points over time due to age, and can be thought to gain them as they "go up in level", which affects skill modifiers. But people do not rework from the ground up, people build on past experiences- it's how we learn. Again, a faulty argument.

[QuantumFX]

There is alot of "real" rulebooks out there, most of which are of dubious use.

So what's your point? You still haven't shown why PHB2 should not be allowed in this arguement other than it shows that arguing against respecs/remort/retraining is wrong.

That's where the balance problem comes in. All you are doing is making a refined ubercharacter.

There is no balance issues since the character would still be based off of the current rules of DDO. Oh I get it... Appeal to fear.

Other games have alot of things that players consider fun that have no place in DDO. And actually more gear should be bound- and if the new raid/damage rules are an indication the devs are starting to realize that.

Once again there is no balance issue since stuff has a ML requirement. And for your information: I support adding ML's to tomes as well.

Yes people lose attribute points over time due to age, and can be thought to gain them as they "go up in level", which affects skill modifiers. But people do not rework from the ground up, people build on past experiences- it's how we learn. Again, a faulty argument.

You can lose and gain attributes/skills by more than "levelling up" or "age". Bad exercise and diet = loss of STR/DEX/CON within 2 years. Put an emphasis on getting that college degree and your INT and WIS can go up. Have some bad life experiences and they can go down.
You lose skills from a lack of use. Past experince us useful for skill synergies but doesn't explain the fact that you lose knowledge if you don't use it. Personal example: I worked for 2 years as a network cable installer during college. Nowadays I need a diagram to make sure I don't mix up the colors and don't even bother asking me how to make proper ends for a piece of coax.

[Venar]

Here would be a nice reward:
A +3 skill point tome. For characters above lvl 10 only. Bound too.

[Invalid_86]

So what's your point? You still haven't shown why PHB2 should not be allowed in this arguement other than it shows that arguing against respecs/remort/retraining is wrong.

It's not a core book, nor a setting specific one. The burden is on you to show why it should be included.

There is no balance issues since the character would still be based off of the current rules of DDO. Oh I get it... Appeal to fear.

Once again there is no balance issue since stuff has a ML requirement. And for your information: I support adding ML's to tomes as well.

It's been discussed to death in other threads why rerolls that let you keep favor, bound items, tomes used, and gear won't work. At this point it's a dead horse. Suffice to say it should never happen.

You can lose and gain attributes/skills by more than "levelling up" or "age". Bad exercise and diet = loss of STR/DEX/CON within 2 years. Put an emphasis on getting that college degree and your INT and WIS can go up. Have some bad life experiences and they can go down.
You lose skills from a lack of use. Past experince us useful for skill synergies but doesn't explain the fact that you lose knowledge if you don't use it. Personal example: I worked for 2 years as a network cable installer during college. Nowadays I need a diagram to make sure I don't mix up the colors and don't even bother asking me how to make proper ends for a piece of coax.

That doesn't really apply. D&D doesn't have a "haven't used the skill in a while" penalty, nor does it imply that it should allow rejuggling everything you've spent and learned. And technically going to college doesn't raise your stats, it gives you skill points. Many, many people go to college as morons and graduate as morons- now they just have a new skill.

[QuantumFX]

It's not a core book, nor a setting specific one. The burden is on you to show why it should be included.

No, it's still an officail WotC book. YOU are the one with the burden of proof.

It's been discussed to death in other threads why rerolls that let you keep favor, bound items, tomes used, and gear won't work. At this point it's a dead horse. In my opinion it should never happen.

Fixed that for ya.

That doesn't really apply. D&D doesn't have a "haven't used the skill in a while" penalty, nor does it imply that it should allow rejuggling everything you've spent and learned. And technically going to college doesn't raise your stats, it gives you skill points. Many, many people go to college as morons and graduate as morons- now they just have a new skill.

You stated that there is no real life comparison to respec and I called you on it. Deal with it rather than changing your arguement.

[Gornin]

It would be nice if my 28 point characters could become 32 pointers without re-rolling them. That is the only thing I really want, so that all of my characters would be equal, especially the one who earned the original 1750.

[Invalid_86]

No, it's still an officail WotC book. YOU are the one with the burden of proof.

You seem to misunderstand the difference between official rulebooks and optional books. WOTC has put out many optional, non-core books. PHBII is one of them. Ditto with the Book of Vile Darkness, most campaign settings books, the Complete X guides, and so on.

Basically if it isn't the Player's Handbook, DMG, or a Monster Manual it's optional. Technically you don't need anything else.

You stated that there is no real life comparison to respec and I called you on it. Deal with it rather than changing your arguement.

You called me on nothing. Nobody has yet provided a real life example of somebody resetting everything they know and have experienced to zero and spontaneously regained a new set of skills and memories. Never. Ever. Nobody forgets and relearns a liftime of memories in a matter of moments.

Changing slowly over time is NOT a respec in any form- it is learning, living life.

[EspyLacopa]

You called me on nothing. Nobody has yet provided a real life example of somebody resetting everything they know and have experienced to zero and spontaneously regained a new set of skills and memories. Never. Ever. Nobody forgets and relearns a liftime of memories in a matter of moments.

Changing slowly over time is NOT a respec in any form- it is learning, living life.

Yea, I don't know anyone that's gone from pasty white nerd to Mr Universe style physique in one month and stayed that way. Respecs in D&D work like that.

[QuantumFX]

Yea, I don't know anyone that's gone from pasty white nerd to Mr Universe style physique in one month and stayed that way. Respecs in D&D work like that.

I know a guy who went from fat outta shape guy into bodybuilder in 6 months. Heck if you wanna see what 2 months of exercise will do just watch The Biggest Loser.

And now back to our reguallry scheduled collection of faulty arguments from Rodain

You seem to misunderstand the difference between official rulebooks and optional books. WOTC has put out many optional, non-core books. PHBII is one of them. Ditto with the Book of Vile Darkness, most campaign settings books, the Complete X guides, and so on.

Basically if it isn't the Player's Handbook, DMG, or a Monster Manual it's optional. Technically you don't need anything else.

And as has been shown on this thread already Turbine makes use of these other books regularly. So, once again the ONLY reason you don't want the book in this discussion is because it undermines your argument.

You called me on nothing. Nobody has yet provided a real life example of somebody resetting everything they know and have experienced to zero and spontaneously regained a new set of skills and memories. Never. Ever. Nobody forgets and relearns a liftime of memories in a matter of moments.

Changing slowly over time is NOT a respec in any form- it is learning, living life.

And there you are misrepresenting my argument again. I have shown, multiple times, how attributes and skills change during a lifetime. You simply choose to ignore or misrepresnt them.

The retraining option requires the end character to be what they've always been (class and race) with an assumed retraining period (like the condenced rest period we have in this game) involving focusing in new skills and possibly a different empahsis on different attributes.

[Invalid_86]

I know a guy who went from fat outta shape guy into bodybuilder in 6 months. Heck if you wanna see what 2 months of exercise will do just watch The Biggest Loser.

Again, changing over time. Nobody spontaneously forgets and relearns a lifetime of experiences. That's a respec. Changing over the course of six months is not a respec. Technically our characters in the game can do what you have suggested already by simply gaining levels and assigning their new attribute points into physical stats.

And now back to our reguallry scheduled collection of faulty arguments from Rodain

Ha!

And as has been shown on this thread already Turbine makes use of these other books regularly. So, once again the ONLY reason you don't want the book in this discussion is because it undermines your argument.

"Can" and "should" are two different things. And you were writing under the assumption that just because WOTC put it out Turbine had to use it. It doesn't.

Also my argument hasn't been undermined. It's an optional book, with an optional rule. That point still stands.

And there you are misrepresenting my argument again. I have shown, multiple times, how attributes and skills change during a lifetime. You simply choose to ignore or misrepresnt them.

You have done a good job of showing how people change over time. You have yet to show how they just instantly hit a reset button and start over from scratch.

The distinction between "instant" and "change over time" seems to be lost here.

The retraining option requires the end character to be what they've always been (class and race) with an assumed retraining period (like the condenced rest period we have in this game) involving focusing in new skills and possibly a different empahsis on different attributes.

????

[Nevthial]

I don't see why there would be a need for changing a characters setup. The character in question should have been done "properly" from the start. It really isn't that difficult to see what direction a game is going in and plan accordingly. Before anyone asks, my first character was created before the current enhancement system and hasn't suffered one bit. As a matter of fact, since it is a multiclassed rogue, it is actualy more powerful than before. Simply create a character as you would in a PnP Monty Haul game and there would be no need for any system to respec anything.

[Jhoran]

"I don't see why there would be a need for changing a characters setup. The character in question should have been done "properly" from the start. It really isn't that difficult to see what direction a game is going in and plan accordingly"


have you been playing this game long? there have been many, many SIGNIFICANT changes to character classes over the 2 years. in addition; there have been many changes to different skills over the years.

no one is talking about enhancements...as you may have noticed....those can be changed every 3 days or so.

[Nevthial]

"I don't see why there would be a need for changing a characters setup. The character in question should have been done "properly" from the start. It really isn't that difficult to see what direction a game is going in and plan accordingly"


have you been playing this game long? there have been many, many SIGNIFICANT changes to character classes over the 2 years. in addition; there have been many changes to different skills over the years.

no one is talking about enhancements...as you may have noticed....those can be changed every 3 days or so.

None of the changes should have been significant unless a character was set up incorrect from the start. To answer your question, I've been playing for 16 months without any re-rolls due to supposed "nerfs". For example: Anyone who had to re-roll because of the "evasion nerf" just wasn't paying attention when the character was created. ( And obviously didn't read the description of the Evasion feat.) Granted, persons without any knowledge of D&D may have been at a disadvantage, but nothing game breaking. I still haven't seen one change made to the system that would demand the ability to respec.

[GlassCannon]

The retraining option requires the end character to be what they've always been (class and race) with an assumed retraining period (like the condenced rest period we have in this game) involving focusing in new skills and possibly a different empahsis on different attributes.

You must be referring to something similar to US NAVY SEAL training.

6 months later, COMPLETELY different person, MAJOR stat boosts. Skill rebalances across the board.

[QuantumFX]

I don't see why there would be a need for changing a characters setup. The character in question should have been done "properly" from the start. It really isn't that difficult to see what direction a game is going in and plan accordingly. Before anyone asks, my first character was created before the current enhancement system and hasn't suffered one bit. As a matter of fact, since it is a multiclassed rogue, it is actualy more powerful than before. Simply create a character as you would in a PnP Monty Haul game and there would be no need for any system to respec anything.

In a lot of cases it isn't as easy to tell where this game is going. Look at Superior TWF and the Tempest 2 enhancements. We know they're coming but don't have enough info to base character builds off of them. The evasion fix caught A LOT of people off guard. I know the 3.3 mod killed my interest in my human Rogue/Ranger for the simple reason that I couldn't take advantage of most of the human enhancements.

You must be referring to something similar to US NAVY SEAL training.

6 months later, COMPLETELY different person, MAJOR stat boosts. Skill rebalances across the board.

Or a changing job fields.