Trap DCs

[krud]

thank you for pointing out, didnt i say mario? yes 'most traps' have safe spots but can u jump in those spots everytime? considering these factors: lag, first 3saves, 1s, amount of damage taken, no healing support, make up of group...etc. oh arnt you glad all the vale quests trap are now doing 0 dmg on elite? wait till they do 400pts of dmg per second and you'll see ppl (beep)ing about it on the forums.

Finding the sweet spot can really suck sometimes. Done that in von5, luckily it was bugged too or i'd have been toast. I guess, jumping in on elite for the first time will pose problems if you've never attempted the trap before. familiarity goes a long way. As far as lag, designers can't and shouldn't try to predict it and model it into quests.

Posts in this thread haven't offered many real values to see how bad things really are. That's why i'm trying to get some real numbers to see if things are as out of wack as some are reporting.

[Vormaerin]

Posts in this thread haven't offered many real values to see how bad things really are. That's why i'm trying to get some real numbers to see if things are as out of wack as some are reporting.

Exactly. There's a lot of "this sucks" and very little of "what are our options" going on. Is it really unreasonable that on elite difficulty the rogue player should have some knowledge of the trap? Which traps have sweet spots that are pretty straightforward no one has bothered with before now? Which ones are really too difficult to expect someone to do by twitch, even though its possible?

[redoubt]

QFT.

No one is complaining that trap damage went up. That is a good fix.

Almost everyone agrees that the increase in trap damage shouldn't extend to traps that can't be disabled. This seems self-evidently foolish and more likely to be an unintended consequence of the above than an actual design decision.

There is debate on trap DC's. It seems that the core of the debate is the 'sweet spot' of DC's for a given quest and difficulty level. Yes, there is some advocacy of the benefits of learning 'safe spots', et al but this is exactly the kind of meta-game thinking that already plagues DDO. Based on my experience and the discussions I've read, DC's have been adjusted to be too high. Perhaps there is a middle ground, above the old levels but well below these current ones? I know that my WIZ9/ROG1 won't be taking his second ROG level for evasion until DC's get to a level where evasion will help him. This seems contrary to Turbine's apparent desire to require MORE of trap responsive toons.

Well put. There are lots of threads that talk about "learning" the quest. Why does my rogue have to learn the quest? If you are going to make it so that you have to jump over spinning blade x to land on tiney space y, then I want a check based on my DD or spot or search to give me a clue as to which small space to crawl into before I hit the DD button.

In any event, I wholeheartedly agree with MiceElf. Turbine, what was your intent here? Are you satisfied that these are the outcomes you'd intended to create or can you consider that perhaps you've moved the slider too far in the correct direction. This is causing many of us frustration and draining fun from the game. We'd like to hear from you.

With respect,

Aladon

in line.

[redoubt]

Exactly. There's a lot of "this sucks" and very little of "what are our options" going on.

True.

Is it really unreasonable that on elite difficulty the rogue player should have some knowledge of the trap?

Yes. My rogue is figuring out how to do the trap based on search, spot and disable device. Not me reading the trick on a website or previously learning when and where to jump and stand. I though the point of the reflex save was so that I didn't have to perfectly twitch the timing through a trap...? (We repeat quest because there is not enough to only do each quest once.)

Which traps have sweet spots that are pretty straightforward no one has bothered with before now? Which ones are really too difficult to expect someone to do by twitch, even though its possible?

By all means, find this info as it appears to be the only way we will survive now. Me? I've almost quit playing my trapsmith... so not likely that I'll do much testing unless we hear from the devs that they are willing to discuss the issue with us. (Or at least amongst themselves.)

[Vormaerin]

For normal and hard the quests work as you desire. The 'know the quest' feature for traps only applies on elite. And only matters for a handful of them. Are we even talking about 1% of the content if you consider norm/hard/elite as separate things? Even if you don't, we are talking about a small minority of the traps. And you can make a rogue that still does the trap solely with reflex saves and protective buffs on elite. Its just pretty expensive to do so.

As an aside, I find it kind of interesting that one of the most often cited 'good things' about DDO is that there is some twitch element to the combat, unlike most MMOs. Yet putting a bit of it into traps on the hardest difficulty is cause for uproar. This is just an observation, btw, not an argument for timing traps.

[Raithe]

Yet putting a bit of it into traps on the hardest difficulty is cause for uproar.

It's because the twitch play for traps is stupid metagaming. I can walk through several force traps while the graphic is showing up on my screen, and it does no damage (and I do so because I know it won't). The inverse is also true.

[Ironwind]

This thread seems to have died, but I did some research last night and wanted to post my results.

Two Marketplace Quests:
Missing in Action & The Sunken Sewer.
Both are level 2 quests.
I entered both on Elite.

Missing in Action has electrical traps and spike traps.
The save DC for both traps was 30 on Elite.
Damage on a failed save (with Improved Evasion) was 12-19 per hit.
Double that to 24-38 for those without Improved Evasion.

Now, a level 2 quest on Elite lists as level 4.

A level 4 rogue has the following stats:
+4 base Reflex save
Uncanny Dodge
Evasion
24 hit points +20 heroic vitality = 44

A level 4 rogue would also be expected to have a minimum 18 dexterity.
16 base +1 boost at 4th level +1 stat item = 18
18 dexterity provides an additional +4 reflex save.

So a level 4 rogue can be expected to have these MINIMUM stats:
44 hit points
+12 reflex save
Evasion

Given even the bare minimum equipment and buffs, these numbers are much better.
Cat's Grace potion, Bear's endurance potion, Aid, +Resistance item (trap blast goggles)

So our little level 4 Rogue needs to roll an 18 to completely avoid all damage from these elite traps, provided he uses NO BUFFS OR EQUIPMENT AT ALL. Should he fail the save, he'll survive anyway.

Give that same rogue a Cat's Grace potion and Trapblast Goggles and now the little level 4 Rogue only needs to roll a 12 to save against the trap.

Roll 12+ to save against an ELITE trap with only the barest of equipment and buffs does not seem overpowered at all.




PS.
Both the traps in Missing in Action can be disabled without triggering the trap.
The poison trap in the Sunken Sewer cannot be disarmed, but can be avoided.

[redoubt]

I think you added something twice. Please check mine to see if I am missing anything.

18 dex + 1 level + 1 item = 20 (23 w/ cats) so...

4 base
5 dex (no buff)
4 trapblast
2 trapsense
15 total (16 w/cats)

Even with max dex and available buffs a 14 roll is needed. A char focused on dex and traps should not fail 70% of the time, even on elite.

[krud]

PS.
Both the traps in Missing in Action can be disabled without triggering the trap.
The poison trap in the Sunken Sewer cannot be disarmed, but can be avoided.

That sums it up for just about all the low level quests (except the fire room in STK). Since a rogue (practically any rogue or MCrogue) can spot the trap, and then disable it, without coming anywhere close to it, then there is no reason to worry about DCs. I don't understand why these low level DCs are even an issue where rogues are concerned. All that matters is that the rogue is able to get the job done, without sacrificing his build, or needing a specific tutorial from someone else in order to do so. If he has enough skills points to spot, search and disable on elite (which aren't too hard to come by) then it doesn't matter if he has a reflex save of 2 or 200, it won't be a factor. It's everyone else that doesn't want a rogue in their group that needs to worry.

[Ironwind]

I think you added something twice. Please check mine to see if I am missing anything.

18 dex + 1 level + 1 item = 20 (23 w/ cats) so...

4 base
5 dex (no buff)
4 trapblast
2 trapsense
15 total (16 w/cats)

Even with max dex and available buffs a 14 roll is needed. A char focused on dex and traps should not fail 70% of the time, even on elite.

Ah, I did make an error.
Cat's Grace doesn't stack with the +1 stat item.

16 dex +1 level +1 item = 18 (21 w/ cat's grace)

4 base
4 dex
4 trapblast
4 uncanny dodge
1 cats grace dex bonus

So 13+ saves on a DC30 elite trap.

Still this doesn't reflect any buffs provided by the other 5 members of the party or trap sense enhancements & feats.

[DNDJESS]

You guys are insane. A 9-page thread complaining that traps hurt? Are you kidding me?? OK, lets give the players what they're asking for. Change the spinning blade traps to spinning marshmallow traps, and the spike traps to feathers that tickle your lil' feet.

Really, what's the problem here? You might actually die when walking into a trap in an elite dungeon? Oh, the horror!! Isn't that the purpose of the trap? And there's no longer even a death penalty to worry about if you do die. Face the facts here, trap damage was such a joke before this mod that it was pathetic. Now it's no longer a cakewalk. Boo freakin hoo.

[Pellegro]

This thread seems to have died, but I did some research last night and wanted to post my results.

Two Marketplace Quests:
Missing in Action & The Sunken Sewer.
Both are level 2 quests.
I entered both on Elite.

Missing in Action has electrical traps and spike traps.
The save DC for both traps was 30 on Elite.
Damage on a failed save (with Improved Evasion) was 12-19 per hit.
Double that to 24-38 for those without Improved Evasion.

...

So our little level 4 Rogue needs to roll an 18 to completely avoid all damage from these elite traps, provided he uses NO BUFFS OR EQUIPMENT AT ALL. Should he fail the save, he'll survive anyway.

Give that same rogue a Cat's Grace potion and Trapblast Goggles and now the little level 4 Rogue only needs to roll a 12 to save against the trap.

Roll 12+ to save against an ELITE trap with only the barest of equipment and buffs does not seem overpowered at all.

PS.
Both the traps in Missing in Action can be disabled without triggering the trap.
The poison trap in the Sunken Sewer cannot be disarmed, but can be avoided.

Thank you !!!

I hope the DEVs see this. This is the type of real feedback that is useful.

Gwylan's (LVL 7 quest) on elite has saves of 38 on traps. Seems quite reasonable to me given that its elite.

I would add that Eladrin recently clarified taht they do not intend for elite to be base level +2, but rather closer to base level +5. I think its more like 3 or 4 but w/e ....

Back to the point of my post: Thanks!

[krud]

You guys are insane. A 9-page thread complaining that traps hurt? Are you kidding me?? OK, lets give the players what they're asking for. Change the spinning blade traps to spinning marshmallow traps, and the spike traps to feathers that tickle your lil' feet.

Really, what's the problem here? You might actually die when walking into a trap in an elite dungeon? Oh, the horror!! Isn't that the purpose of the trap? And there's no longer even a death penalty to worry about if you do die. Face the facts here, trap damage was such a joke before this mod that it was pathetic. Now it's no longer a cakewalk. Boo freakin hoo.

Thank you for that wonderful insight.

that's not really what the discussion is about. Most people aren't complaining that elite traps hurt. They should. It's about how a decent rogue, which, btw, is the only class that can deal with traps, is easily getting killed too. It will pigeonhole rogues into trap builds if DCs are set too high. Either that, or it will require them to have someone show them how to do their duties, or go practice on normal every time. Not very fair for anyone playing a rogue. Get us some concrete numbers and then we can see whether or not all the complaining is justified.

btw - still no definite value on the von5 elec/blade trap DC.

[Ironwind]

I know that this is kind of pointless, since the Devs are reducing trap save DCs on Elite; but...

Halls of Shan-To-Kor ELITE
The dreaded fire trap.
(Combat): You attempt to save versus trap:fire. You roll a 2 (+25): save!
(Combat): You attempt to save versus trap:fire. You roll a 2 (+22): save failure!

Of course I had to go back and deliberately step in the fire to get that result, because I was able to cross through the entire room without making a single save versus fire trap. You can navigate that trap if you are patient and time the fire jets. I did forget about the spike traps and took 14 points of damage from the first one...then I remembered them.

Anyway, the dreaded fire trap in STK on Elite - save DC 25-26

[unionyes]

Not trying to drift away from DC's into a discussion of playstyle, but......

In a necro quest last night on elite, I don't run there that much but I was bored. There were two deaths due to trap, which is lucky as the traps in this quest (I can't even remember the name of it, there are so many tombs out there they all run together) seemed to be mostly spike traps that didn't even cover the whole floor, just parts of it. It happened the same way both times. My spot would trigger, I would say 'trap' and simultaneously the trap would go off and kill the poor soul who set it off. I would disarm it, the cleric would raise the dead guy, and on we would go. It was the same person who died both times. And guess what he was complaining about? Yep. The trap DC's are waaaaaay to high since the mod. One player even pointed out that the trap covered about 12% of the floor in the hallway, and he just said yeah, that's my luck that's where I stepped.

If there are traps and I know they are there but don't remember exactly where they are, I stay behind the rogue (or the barbarian who is running off ahead, more than one way to find a trap ). If I don't know the quest, I stay behind the rogue too. That's just me though.

Are the DC's too high? Maybe some of them. But IMO it comes down to this. Bring a good rogue, or a stack of raise dead scrolls for your cleric. I can't remember the tip number, but one of them is 'Rogues can make good scouts, and save your party time and hit points'

[Riggs]

I think you added something twice. Please check mine to see if I am missing anything.

18 dex + 1 level + 1 item = 20 (23 w/ cats) so...

4 base
5 dex (no buff)
4 trapblast
2 trapsense
15 total (16 w/cats)

Even with max dex and available buffs a 14 roll is needed. A char focused on dex and traps should not fail 70% of the time, even on elite.

Ran my new halfling rogue/pally through stuff recently. On leite, from level 2 up to level 6 stuff so far - 75% fail rate for elite traps.

No cats, so 24 dex, various enhancements, +2 save item, heroism. +20 to save vs traps by level 6, still failing most of the time in House K quests - which are level 5 quests, and one is level 6 I think.

[Lizardgrad89]

It seems to me that the devs are trying really hard to give the "uber" toons something to do, while still having a playable game for everybody else.

Traps, enemy casters and enemy HP seems to be at the heart of this change.

I think the general theory is:

Anybody can run normal, if you are just here to have fun, play on normal.
If you want more of a challenge, move up to hard.
If you are a raid loot junkie that plays 60 hours a week, give elite a shot.

Elite seems to me to be beyond the abilities of almost any pug group, you need to be running a tight guild group to get through level-appropriate elite quests. So yeah, you won't be able to grab a random rogue and succeed on elite, but you aren't supposed to be able to do that.

What I have seen on this thread is a lot of people who just play for fun (which is cool and the right way to do it, IMO) but who don't seem to realize they have been systematically excluded from the elite levels (unless they decide put a lot more effort and committment into the game, and become uber).

The devs have had to deal for a long time with a serious problem: the ability gap between the hard core and casual gamers. This is their answer, to make the normal levels easier so the casual players can succeed, and the elite levels much harder so the hard core gamers have some challenge. I think it's an elegant solution, it's just too bad they didn't have this mind-set from Beta, or everyone would have long ago accepted the different levels for what they only now have become.

[Hvymetal]

It seems to me that the devs are trying really hard to give the "uber" toons something to do, while still having a playable game for everybody else.

Traps, enemy casters and enemy HP seems to be at the heart of this change.

I think the general theory is:

Anybody can run normal, if you are just here to have fun, play on normal.
If you want more of a challenge, move up to hard.
If you are a raid loot junkie that plays 60 hours a week, give elite a shot.

Elite seems to me to be beyond the abilities of almost any pug group, you need to be running a tight guild group to get through level-appropriate elite quests. So yeah, you won't be able to grab a random rogue and succeed on elite, but you aren't supposed to be able to do that.

What I have seen on this thread is a lot of people who just play for fun (which is cool and the right way to do it, IMO) but who don't seem to realize they have been systematically excluded from the elite levels (unless they decide put a lot more effort and committment into the game, and become uber).

The devs have had to deal for a long time with a serious problem: the ability gap between the hard core and casual gamers. This is their answer, to make the normal levels easier so the casual players can succeed, and the elite levels much harder so the hard core gamers have some challenge. I think it's an elegant solution, it's just too bad they didn't have this mind-set from Beta, or everyone would have long ago accepted the different levels for what they only now have become.

Our argument was, the other classes did not have to put as much effort into running elite as a Rogue, it wasn't the theory behind but the actual amount it was raised. Now had they made a melee equally specc out to hit elite mobs (you know as well as I do that hitting with melee on elite content isn't a problem), and made a spellcaster equally specc out as much to land a spell then you might have an argument, however the way I saw it the other classes were not REQUIRED to run with top of the line gear, spend multiple feats + a lot of action points or splash 2 levels of Paladin in order to do what a majority of the player base was going to bring you into the quest to do. So should they have upped all of those requirements to run elite content (which they won't have to now) you might have actually had an argument that held water......

Not to mention pigeon-hole any other class into 1 single aspect of that class in order to run elite content.

[Josh]

You guys are insane. A 9-page thread complaining that traps hurt? Are you kidding me?? OK, lets give the players what they're asking for. Change the spinning blade traps to spinning marshmallow traps, and the spike traps to feathers that tickle your lil' feet.

Really, what's the problem here? You might actually die when walking into a trap in an elite dungeon? Oh, the horror!! Isn't that the purpose of the trap? And there's no longer even a death penalty to worry about if you do die. Face the facts here, trap damage was such a joke before this mod that it was pathetic. Now it's no longer a cakewalk. Boo freakin hoo.

What a delightfully inane post. People aren't complaining about the damage per see...traps should hurt, period. I don't think anyone would (or has) disagree with that. What people are clamoring about is that the save DC's weren't scaling with quest level. There has to be some metric involved with the difficulty of the quest, and the arbitrary boost ****bine gave the DC's was totally out of whack.

Way to totally ignore the idea behind the post and generalize everyone.

[Josh]

Thank you !!!
I would add that Eladrin recently clarified taht they do not intend for elite to be base level +2, but rather closer to base level +5. I think its more like 3 or 4 but w/e ....

If that's the metric they want to use, fine. No argument here. Then the XP and loot should be +5 levels also, not +2.

But don't tell everyone that elite is a +2 EL, but "secretly" make it +5. That's just stupid.