Trap DCs

[Raithe]

If the main trap was working properly i'd probably have been toast if the elite DC is really 45 as many say it is.

The elite traps in VoN 5 are 50+ DC trap saves. Hope all those arguments you made over the last several pages still hold water...

[krud]

The elite traps in VoN 5 are 50+ DC trap saves. Hope all those arguments you made over the last several pages still hold water...

My arguments still stand; DCs should be set so that an average, level apropriate rogue, with a decent array of buffs should be able to get thru and disable traps with little chance for failure. I always said the DC for the main trap in von5 should be ~40. Considering you roll a number of saves in that trap, that particular DC should not be set too high. One shot traps can be higher, but if you must make multiple saves in a trap, the DC should be lower to reflect the multiple chances at failure. If the DC is indeed 50+ for the spinning blade/electric trap, then that is too high. Even with improved evasion a rogue will have trouble. It then becomes a matter of running the cleric thru and rezing him on the other side, rinse and repeat for everyone else.

I just checked some harbor DCs:
waterworks pt1 acid and fire trap at beginning 28 - just need to wait them out if you got no rogue.
sewer rescue 29 - these will require very good timing to get thru unharmed. no rogue sux in here
smuggler's warehouse ~28 - can always run down the middle of the blade trap or do the fire one in reverse and time it for each party member, but every party won't know this.

At least you don't need to run thru most low level traps in order to disable them, but it does look more and more like a decent rogue is becoming almost as necessary as a decent cleric. At least it doesn't cost an arm and a leg to support a rogue

[Raithe]

At least you don't need to run thru most low level traps in order to disable them, but it does look more and more like a decent rogue is becoming almost as necessary as a decent cleric. At least it doesn't cost an arm and a leg to support a rogue

That's not how it's going to work. Trust me. I've been through the search and spot DC debacle.

Only about 5% of rogues that people don't know as a static member of their group will be fully geared and know what buffs they will need. The rest will fail, miserably. Groups will stop PUGging for rogues, and because of the generally poor impression created, rogues will be built less overall.

Plus, it's really easy to metagame or circumvent most of these elite traps. People will just remove their items, die in the trap, and get rezzed on the other side. It costs about 30 spell points or a scroll.

[llevenbaxx]

btw - Imp uncanny dodge does give a +6 reflex bonus in my stat window whenever i activate it (same as the AC bonus). Either the description is off, or the sta window is reporting it wrong.

Minor but incorrect. Read carefully as the AC description is right before the Ref description or check the compendium if you cant access from work. +4 to Ref & +6 to AC IUD.

[llevenbaxx]

That's not how it's going to work. Trust me. I've been through the search and spot DC debacle.

Only about 5% of rogues that people don't know as a static member of their group will be fully geared and know what buffs they will need. The rest will fail, miserably. Groups will stop PUGging for rogues, and because of the generally poor impression created, rogues will be built less overall.

Plus, it's really easy to metagame or circumvent most of these elite traps. People will just remove their items, die in the trap, and get rezzed on the other side. It costs about 30 spell points or a scroll.

Thats exactly what I see happening too. How could they have missed all the posts stating Rogue /= Trapsmith!

[krud]

Minor but incorrect. Read carefully as the AC description is right before the Ref description or check the compendium if you cant access from work. +4 to Ref & +6 to AC IUD.

Yes, I read the description, I know what it says, but that's not what it does. Try it out. Ask any rogue with IUD to look at their reflex save window on their main stat page and then hit IUD to see what happens. The number in the diplay goes up by +6. when i got time i'll check it out by standing in a trap.

Plus, it's really easy to metagame or circumvent most of these elite traps. People will just remove their items, die in the trap, and get rezzed on the other side. It costs about 30 spell points or a scroll.

and how is that any different than the way it used to be? - run thru trap and cast heal scroll on everyone. It just costs more plat now.

Only about 5% of rogues that people don't know as a static member of their group will be fully geared and know what buffs they will need. The rest will fail, miserably. Groups will stop PUGging for rogues, and because of the generally poor impression created, rogues will be built less overall

Most of these same arguements about rogues can be applied to clerics as well. Why do people keep inviting PUG clerics, even when they don't know them or how well they will perform? Because clerics are viewed as being so much more necessary than a rogue that people suck it up and are willing to take a chance on a PUG.

How could they have missed all the posts stating Rogue /= Trapsmith!

agreed, but it also takes very little to make a trapsmith out of a rogue. So little in fact that every rogue should be able trapsmith, just like every cleric, even battle clerics, should be able to heal

[llevenbaxx]

Yes, I read the description, I know what it says, but that's not what it does. Try it out. Ask any rogue with IUD to look at their reflex save window on their main stat page and then hit IUD to see what happens. The number in the diplay goes up by +6. when i got time i'll check it out by standing in a trap.

Ah, must be implimented wrong. Will have to bug report it.

[krud]

Ah, must be implimented wrong. Will have to bug report it.

or the description is off

[llevenbaxx]

or the description is off

We'll know soon enough.

[krud]

more flogging the dead horse:

For the MC rogue - the way I look at it a MCrogue should be able to function as well as the level of rogue they have plus whatever else their other class brings to the table. i.e. my 8ftr/8rog should be able to function as well as an 8 level rogue plus whatever an 8 fighter brings to the table (lots of feats and HV).

Reflex saves:
class (dex).......base.....Dex....TSfeat..total
16rogue (30).....10........10........5.......25
8ftr/8rog (26).....8.........8.........2.......18

I am 7 points behind what an average rogue starts with. If I take lightning reflexes (+2) and resilience (+5?) feats. I should be at the same starting point as that 16th level rogue. Since I don't have resilience yet I have to rely on HV for the extra +5 (not the best solution, but it helps). From there it should only be a matter of enhancement choices, buffs, and loot that separate me from that 16rogue. However, as a 16rogue I would be upset if I were required to take either lightning reflexes or resilience in order to have a chance.

[llevenbaxx]

more flogging the dead horse:

For the MC rogue - the way I look at it a MCrogue should be able to function as well as the level of rogue they have plus whatever else their other class brings to the table. i.e. my 8ftr/8rog should be able to function as well as an 8 level rogue plus whatever an 8 fighter brings to the table (lots of feats and HV).

Reflex saves:
class (dex).......base.....Dex....TSfeat..total
16rogue (30).....10........10........5.......25
8ftr/8rog (26).....8.........8.........2.......18

I am 7 points behind what an average rogue starts with. If I take lightning reflexes (+2) and resilience (+5?) feats. I should be at the same starting point as that 16th level rogue. Since I don't have resilience yet I have to rely on HV for the extra +5 (not the best solution, but it helps). From there it should only be a matter of enhancement choices, buffs, and loot that separate me from that 16rogue. However, as a 16rogue I would be upset if I were required to take either lightning reflexes or resilience in order to have a chance.

LOL you say from there its just a matter of enhancement differences like they are neglegible. They are the largest factor. Bottom line in all of this as a PnP player is that Turbine is making yet more viable builds from PnP and shoving them out the door with their enhancement system. MC is promoted in D&D and frowned upon in MMO... sry DDO. I can see the logic behind it, in D&D being able to fill multiple roles is a good thing(as there may not be enough ppl), in an MMO its not necessary as there should be plenty of ppl for any "role". Dont like it but do understand it. At least I have a freed up character slot to play with.

I just cant stand to see anymore of the well its there job, they should be better dute dee doo excuse. They were already better, this move was just to clear a portion of the field. Score one for the uncreative number crunching MMO crowd. Saying a level 16 character that is 8/8 or w/e should only be as good as either half makes absolutely zero sense from D&D 3.5 standpoint, thats just not the way the game is set up sry. That is starting to hold alot of water in DDO though.

[Vormaerin]

You don't need them on normal and probably don't need them on hard unless you have skimped on Dex in favor of Strength. You might need them on elite, for a small number of traps. The main advantage of Resilience being that it doesn't expire like IUD and Save boosts can. There are a couple cases where they might not last long enough for comfort, IIRC. But in most cases, you don't need the ref save at all and in most of the remaining cases, your IUD and HV/R Saves will last longer than you should be in the trap.

[krud]

LOL you say from there its just a matter of enhancement differences like they are neglegible. They are the largest factor. Bottom line in all of this as a PnP player is that Turbine is making yet more viable builds from PnP and shoving them out the door with their enhancement system. MC is promoted in D&D and frowned upon in MMO... sry DDO. I can see the logic behind it, in D&D being able to fill multiple roles is a good thing(as there may not be enough ppl), in an MMO its not necessary as there should be plenty of ppl for any "role". Dont like it but do understand it. At least I have a freed up character slot to play with.

I just cant stand to see anymore of the well its there job, they should be better dute dee doo excuse. They were already better, this move was just to clear a portion of the field. Score one for the uncreative number crunching MMO crowd. Saying a level 16 character that is 8/8 or w/e should only be as good as either half makes absolutely zero sense from D&D 3.5 standpoint, thats just not the way the game is set up sry. That is starting to hold alot of water in DDO though.

I didn't say an 8/8 should be only good as half. I said half plus whatever the other class brings to the table. In this case it's fighter which is only a slight increase in base reflex save, few skill points, but lots of extra feats. A pally will add his aura to reflex saves, but few skill points. A ranger will add good base reflex saves, and lots of skill points. A bard will bring those as well, plus great buffs. A wizard brings his buffs, and skill points, but only a slight increase reflex saves. However, some expect MORE than what the other class has to offer just because they multi-classed. If you cross class in something that doesn't add anything to a rogue, then you are at a disadvantage.

Currently, the trap enhancements do not add all that much for a pure rogue, unless you are prepared to spend a lot of AP on only trap skills. I agree, that the future enhancement changes will make things worse, and I do not think it should be implemented. Up till now the enhancements actually made it easier to MC.

With regard to rogue functions the standard for dungeons should be what the average level appropriate rogue can handle. There has to be some kind of standard for traps, after all they are part of the game and rogue is the only class that can deal with them. What do you think these standards should be?

[krud]

You don't need them on normal and probably don't need them on hard unless you have skimped on Dex in favor of Strength. You might need them on elite, for a small number of traps. The main advantage of Resilience being that it doesn't expire like IUD and Save boosts can. There are a couple cases where they might not last long enough for comfort, IIRC. But in most cases, you don't need the ref save at all and in most of the remaining cases, your IUD and HV/R Saves will last longer than you should be in the trap.

agreed, I can function on normal and hard as is (what I expected), but for those few elite traps, I will leave it up to the class that can handle it best. However, to be an elite rogue that can handle most every trap in game will require (and should require) something more, in this case, extra feats.

[Redcoil]

I went and played with a toon that has Evasion, and a rather high reflex - 34. Im sure theres higher, just saying thats what I had to play with.
For first few, lowered it a bit to assure accuracy of rolls.

A Few DC's to ponder.
Lv 3-4 Quests:
Elite Goodblades, Healing Elixir. Blades: DC 26 to save.

Elite Water Works 1, Acid Trap: Save on a 30.

Elite Water Works 1, Fire Trap: Same as Above.

Elite Sewer Rescue, Spikes: 31 Saves 29 failes. Never rolled a 30.
- Same for the blades next to the spikes.

On Elite: lv 12
Elite Von 5: Both electrical traps and blades in north hallway: a 19 + 34 failed.

Take it for what you will :-)

[krud]

started a thread for compiling trap DCs

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...69#post1574669

and here in case you don't visit the rogue forums
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...46#post1574746

[llevenbaxx]

I didn't say an 8/8 should be only good as half. I said half [B][COLOR="Yellow"]

With regard to rogue functions the standard for dungeons should be what the average level appropriate rogue can handle. There has to be some kind of standard for traps, after all they are part of the game and rogue is the only class that can deal with them. What do you think these standards should be?

For elite I think they should figure it around the rogues class feats, near max attainable attributes, with max gear(ie. for the level quest 14/15 level quest = +15 skill item and +4/5 save item) with MAYBE a 1st teir enhancement line investment. I also feel that a rogue in a level appropriate quest should need no buffs to handle his own trade, buffs(or investing heavily in trap enhancements) should only be needed when attempting quests above his level or lacking the best equipment. This would allow a pure rogue with the best items and attributes to invest their "enhancements"(use the term very loosly these days) almost totally in lines that have nothing to do with traps. It should be a freebee for them almost, its what they do, you cant structure them the same way you do the other classes. "Master of none" (thats sorta anti min/max right?) comes to mind.

This would also allow various MC rogues to use the enhancements available in conjunction with the rest of their class make-up to cover (wizard buffs/fighter have a little more hp/barbs their own trap sense etc) some of the difference that the rogue class gives rogues for free. This would also mean that would it would be extremely risking taking heavily MCed rogue into an above level quest. I deal with numbers all day long, I kinda a PnP min/maxer, its not that hard to figure out how to ring every last point out of a build. Turbines enhancements system has simply started to dwarf the d20, too many big numbers and they are still making them bigger. This latest move seems extremely standard MMO operating procedure where pure class are all you see. I know it will never be quite that bad in a D&D "based" game but it could be a hell of alot better game also.

I realize MMOs are not typically very flexible and that D&D is kinda made to be flexible, would love this game to continue to be a hybrid.

[krud]

For elite I think they should figure it around the rogues class feats, near max attainable attributes, with max gear(ie. for the level quest 14/15 level quest = +15 skill item and +4/5 save item) with MAYBE a 1st teir enhancement line investment. I also feel that a rogue in a level appropriate quest should need no buffs to handle his own trade, buffs(or investing heavily in trap enhancements) should only be needed when attempting quests above his level or lacking the best equipment. This would allow a pure rogue with the best items and attributes to invest their "enhancements"(use the term very loosly these days) almost totally in lines that have nothing to do with traps. It should be a freebee for them almost, its what they do, you cant structure them the same way you do the other classes. "Master of none" (thats sorta anti min/max right?) comes to mind.

Not very far from what I have suggested +/- a few points. I started compiling DCs to see how far off from that standard they really are.

[llevenbaxx]

Not very far from what I have suggested +/- a few points. I started compiling DCs to see how far off from that standard they really are.

I would like to see that also. Im sure some will say, "Well why even bother having high level enhancements?". The simple ability to have things like str based full rogues that would need that last teir of trapsense because he can only muster a 24 dex. Enhancements seem like they are currently being used to head hunt builds instead of encouraging creative new builds imho.

Whats the point of having options if they have no shot at working in the endgame?

[Ironwind]

Here are my stats:
Lvl 16 pure Rogue
Base Reflex Save 10
Dex 30 (+10)
Resist Item (+4)
Greater Hero. (+4)
Self-buffed Reflex Save +28
vs Traps my Reflex Save is +33 due to Trap Sense Feat.

I have the UMD and foresight to carry a stack of GH scrolls.
I also carry Recitation wands for an extra +2 but rarely need it.
I can also pop Improved Uncanny Dodge for another +4.
I don't have any Trap Sense Enhancements.

Unbuffed Skills
Spot - 38
Search - 46
Disable Device - 47
Open Lock - 51

Considering all of the numbers I've provided, my character is not mathematically optimized for traps. Yet I cannot think of a single trap that I have failed to find or disable since I've hit 16. (cabal elite the only exception)

Reference this post
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=541350&postcount=1
for specific numbers required to spot, search & disable all traps in the game.

Also with my Improved Evasion and mediocre Reflex save, I have yet to be killed trying to disable a trap.
So, honestly, I'd like to say I feel bad for those of you that are upset about the higher DCs, but I don't.
If your old method of doing traps isn't working, maybe you should slow down and think through a new approach.

Now, as a side bonus of not wasting all my build points in Way of the Mechanic and maximum dexterity scores and other goofy shizit, I can also do very well with dps. I'm not always first on the kill count, but I'm always in the top 3, and I've out damaged many a barbarian in my day. I also have 222 hit points; a really nice UMD and 11 capped skills. I can rez, heal, dps and take out traps. I also make a mean cappuccino!

You really do not need to waste all your precious build points into trapsmithing to be a great rogue. Play smarter.



Another excellent reference for trap DCs
http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/DDO_in...raps_and_locks


My skill breakdown.
Spot - 38
19 ranks
+15 item
+2 elf racial
+2 enhancments

Search - 46
19 ranks
+15 item
+6 int bonus
+2 elf racial
+4 enhancements

Disable Device - 47
19 ranks
+15 item
+6 int bonus
+7 tools

Open Lock - 51
19 ranks
+15 item
+10 dex bonus
+7 tools