Trap DCs

[Vormaerin]

Off topic and incredibly wrong. The generic role of every D&D class is adventuring, and some excel at such without any combat at all.



This is sooo confusing. What in the world does this mean?

Characters with evasion should be good at evading.

For the first, D&D is a combat game. All the classes are designed with combat abilities in mind. It is expected that every character contribute effectively to the *combat*. They can also contribute in other ways. First edition didn't have any non combat abilities... except thievery. 2nd and 3rd had more, but they usually came at the expense of combat capability (the argument here about 'useless except for traps). 4e is doing even more to separate the two to avoid the gimp your combat for your RP stereotype. You can blame WotC design if you wish, but its the design this game is based on.

For the second, you are shifting topics. MY comments were directed specifically at your assertion that items shouldn't factor into DCs. That has nothing to do with whether or not wizards can run through traps. The saves bonuses from items are not that big a deal and both 3rd and 4th addition factor in assumptions about those items into their rules. Where items matter for traps is on the disarms and so on. If you don't factor +skills items into those DCs and use the pnp numbers, anyone buying the relevant skills *and* using the items is going to disarm everything automatically by early mid levels. The pnp DCs don't factor in +4 tools combined with +5 items because they don't exist.

What is it you want? The rogue to be able to do traps on elite without gear, feats, or enhancements, just class ability? I'm not trying to be snide with that. I've honestly lost sight of your position.

[Vormaerin]

lol, there isn't any more a str based/MC rogue can do on top of that list you provided.

btw - my first test in von5, the 1st horizontal blade trap to the west 24n/36h/48e. not too bad, imo.

Well, nothing you would want to do most likely, but there are other feats and there may be other enhancements depending on class and race.

And those values are interesting. Its certainly feasible to make a rogue that can do those. But 24 is a huge difference for what is supposed to be a +2 lvl increase in difficulty. They need to up that rating if they expect it represent reality in any way.

[Raithe]

For the first, D&D is a combat game.

No, D&D is a roleplaying game. If you are unsure of whether I am making that up, here is the first sentence of the Wikipedia entry:

Dungeons & Dragons (abbreviated as D&D or DnD) is a tabletop fantasy role-playing game (RPG) originally designed by E. Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson, and first published in 1974 by the Gygax-owned company Tactical Studies Rules, Inc. (TSR).

Apparently I am not the only one who is running under that assumption. Sometimes DDO makes me wonder...

For the second, you are shifting topics. MY comments were directed specifically at your assertion that items shouldn't factor into DCs. That has nothing to do with whether or not wizards can run through traps. The saves bonuses from items are not that big a deal and both 3rd and 4th addition factor in assumptions about those items into their rules. Where items matter for traps is on the disarms and so on. If you don't factor +skills items into those DCs and use the pnp numbers, anyone buying the relevant skills *and* using the items is going to disarm everything automatically by early mid levels. The pnp DCs don't factor in +4 tools combined with +5 items because they don't exist.

What is it you want? The rogue to be able to do traps on elite without gear, feats, or enhancements, just class ability? I'm not trying to be snide with that. I've honestly lost sight of your position.

You seem to be the one shifting topics to skills items rather than saves. Your position is baseless - as I've already pointed out about six times now, DCs are not a measure of loot acquisition. If you don't want characters to be able to operate in quests several levels above them, remove the excessive loot from the random generator. You seem to be saying that a character that has made several trade-offs to achieve high reflex saves and good trapsmithing skills should have a reasonable chance of failure at navigating a trap of which he or she is aware. If you ask me, 5% chance of failure for such a character is excessive.

My position was clear. I said gear and buffs should never enter into any DC creation criteria. Gear items because they are rewards that can be disabled, buffs because they represent an expenditure above and beyond normalcy (also known as the mystical force of magic). I also said that DC creation should largely be a factor of realistic assessment of the scale and sophistication of the trap in question. If the trap is easily overcome without disabling it, there is little reason to make it difficult to evade and/or disarm. In the linear quest structure of DDO, it is also important that all traps that must be traversed to complete the quest be reasonable in nature. It would actually be more realistic and better quest design to drop the linear model and place traps in optional corridors where they could make the trap difficulty pose a question of threat assessment. Unfortunately we can't seem to achieve that (for some unknown reason that must be developer-related).

I'm not sure there is any point in my continuing to post. The understanding of the history and nature of fantasy roleplaying is important to the discussion, and there seems to be a detrimental shortage of it.

[Angelus_dead]

No, D&D is a roleplaying game.

Are humans omnivores?

No, humans are bipeds.

[krud]

If you ask me, 5% chance of failure for such a character is excessive.

that's a 1 on a d20. isn't that always an automatic failure, no matter how good your score is? just like a 20 is an automatic save, no matter how bad your score is?

Well, nothing you would want to do most likely, but there are other feats and there may be other enhancements depending on class and race.
only 1 more feat (lightning reflexes = +2) and no enhancements are left besides stat (possibly +1). That will barely make up the build difference, let alone resilience and +10 enhancements. If those last two are required for even a dex based build to succeed, then there isn't much room for anyone else.

And those values are interesting. Its certainly feasible to make a rogue that can do those. But 24 is a huge difference for what is supposed to be a +2 lvl increase in difficulty. They need to up that rating if they expect it represent reality in any way.

The 24/36/48 values are not for the deadly spining blade/electric trap, but the 1st set of traps you get to. Considering that it typically is a one shot deal, or can be timed to avoid them, it doesn't seem too high. On normal, a good number of people can be buffed up enough to run thru without missing a save, plus the damage taken is not that bad (~40/hit). On hard a good rogue can easily hit those numbers, while an splash or str rogue may need some good buffs. On elite a good rogue with some buffs has a very good chance to make a save, while average or below average rogues would have ~50% or better.

if those same values apply to the spinning blade traps then elite becomes exponetially more difficult. Rogues unfamiliar with the twitch safe spots will surely die multiple times. Even a halfway decent rogue will have trouble if they mistime some blades, which is very easy to do. The only way around those is to familiarize yourself on normal or hard before trying elite. No more elite group dragging in the inexperienced rogue just to do the traps.

[Raithe]

Are humans omnivores?

No, humans are bipeds.

The better analogy:

Humans are carnivores.

No, Humans in general are omnivores. Some specifically are herbivores.


Just because most everyone still playing DDO has combat and loot on the mind does not change the focus of the historic game, which focus is outside of Wizard of the Coast's, Hasbro's, and Turbine's control.

[GORAK]

I guess I would consider myself an "omnivore" since I shop for groceries at Omni Foods.

:-)

[Naash]

Nobody is complaining about being able to find or disable traps... Those numbers didn't change...

Take your pure 16th level rogue into VON 5 on elite with your 33 reflex save and run through the blade traps to get to the box on the other side... tell me how you do...

He would do fine.
I've never seen a good rogue RUN through that particular trap.

All this outpouring of sympathy for rogues is touching but we'll be ok.
Bad rogues will get smarter,real bad rogues will be rerolled.
Splash builds...

[Ironwind]

Btw, IRONWIND

No one is discussing skills. Skills are easy. Any blind monkey can have the skills to do all the traps in the game except cabal elite. Its reflex saves that are the issue in this thread. Ref saves to do Stk fire room, pit lightning, scoundrel's run fire passage and other 'must make ref saves to succeed' traps. You might want to take your low 30s ref saves into those traps on elite now and see how easy it is.

I addressed skills as part of the larger issue.
I also specifically mention my reflex saves and ability to disable traps even when I have to run through the trap (which should be never).

Sure, I haven't been to STK on elite since mod 6, but I have been through level appropriate traps on elite and my lowe 30s reflex save plus improved evasion plus appropriate buffs have gotten me through just fine.

[Ironwind]

<shrugs>
Interestingly, it seems you actually agree with my points. What you disagree about is whether current conditions conform to my suggestions. Yet you provide no hard data, not a single firm point of reference. I cannot then counter you but nor will I simply believe you. I think we can agree that simply because one level capped rogue hasn't found an overly hard trap DC doesn't mean that there aren't any.

I do not agree with all of your points.
I gave very specific hard data in my original post.
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=120
I also provided links to trap DCs for spot, search and disable all around the game.
Trap save DCs are being compiled; but as has been stated many times previously in this thread, "A rogue very rarely (if ever) needs to get hit by a trap to disable the trap."

[Ironwind]

Nobody is complaining about being able to find or disable traps... Those numbers didn't change...

Take your pure 16th level rogue into VON 5 on elite with your 33 reflex save and run through the blade traps to get to the box on the other side... tell me how you do...

I have.
It worked out fine.
Some of you seem to miss the point.

Sure my reflex save is a lousy 33.
But I have improved evasion.
I have resist items, prot potions, stoneskin wands, etc.
I also have 5-11 other people in my party/raid who can buff/assist.

I have disabled the trap in VON5 on elite without dying.
If you can't, perhaps you should try a different tactic?

[Ironwind]

You haven't done all the high-level traps since the change...

You haven't done all the traps as a low-level or mid-level rogue since the change either.

You can't state that "ALL the traps can be handled by an average rogue played intelligently" because you haven't tried them all SINCE THE CHANGE....

Wow, you really got me there.

I was lvl 12 when mod 6 came out and I have done level appropriate quests to get to 16.
So I've done all sorts of Gianthold quests, Orchard quests and Vale quests on elite.
I haven't had any trouble.

Sure, I haven't done ALL the traps IN THE GAME at the right level SINCE THE CHANGE. I am extrapolating based on the level 12+ quests that I have done.

Why don't you name a few level appropriate traps that you haven't been able to do since the change?

Don't make me roll a new level 1 rogue just to prove I'm right.

[Raithe]

I love how everyone is talking about VoN 5... one of maybe 5 quests in the game that really made having a rogue something more than slightly convenient.

How many of the pure rogues who support this change had a problem getting into a group for VoN 5 if there wasn't another rogue already there, before Mod 6?

How many of the pure rogues who support this change had a problem before Mod 6 with people running through the lightning/blender traps without waiting for the rogue to "do his thing?"

How many of the pure rogues who support this change expect to be invited to a VoN 5/6 run if there is already a pure rogue in the raid?

Pure rogue situations haven't improved in the slightest. Everything that was metagamed before will continue to be metagamed. Pure rogues will now have excellent reasons to drop even more of their primary and secondary abilities for trapsmithing, and unless there is a particularly nasty trap in a quest that can't be metagamed without significant expense, they will not be wanted and may not even be welcome.

[ViVid7th]

Wow, you really got me there.

I was lvl 12 when mod 6 came out and I have done level appropriate quests to get to 16.
So I've done all sorts of Gianthold quests, Orchard quests and Vale quests on elite.
I haven't had any trouble.

Sure, I haven't done ALL the traps IN THE GAME at the right level SINCE THE CHANGE. I am extrapolating based on the level 12+ quests that I have done.

Why don't you name a few level appropriate traps that you haven't been able to do since the change?

Don't make me roll a new level 1 rogue just to prove I'm right.

Ironwind, the Rescue quest in the harbor, level 1 quest, made level 3 by the Elite tag, DC 30 save required. Low level elite saves are completely out of whack, and the elite saves in general are a touch too high.

[Ironwind]

Ironwind, the Rescue quest in the harbor, level 1 quest, made level 3 by the Elite tag, DC 30 save required. Low level elite saves are completely out of whack, and the elite saves in general are a touch too high.

Oh, I remember that quest and that trap!!!
I've lost many XP to that darn trap.
But that trap was ridiculous on Elite even before Mod6.
I remember taking my very first toon (a wizard) through there at level 5.
I did all sorts of buffing and potion popping before trying to jump and maneuver through that trap and it still killed me!

Ok, so certain traps are stupidly difficult. I'll grant that.
I'm working all weekend, but starting next week I'll make a lvl 1 rogue and run some level appropriate quests in the harbor through level 5. I'll report back with my findings.

[Vormaerin]

Just because most everyone still playing DDO has combat and loot on the mind does not change the focus of the historic game, which focus is outside of Wizard of the Coast's, Hasbro's, and Turbine's control.

Of course its a roleplaying game. How does that invalidate my point? For the first 20 or so years of its existance, there was no GAME MECHANICS in any edition of D&D (booklets, basic set, AD&D 1/2) to cover any 'roleplaying' activity. It used the same rules as "Let's pretend" did, except for defining a referee. The game mechanics were for resolving combat when you were done with "Let's Pretend". Third edition is the first one to try to put numbers to social actions and the like. A nice thought, though they bungled it. 4e is going to try again.

This is a game mechanics discussion. Third edition absolutely factors player loot into their encounter designs. It says so explicitly in the DMG. Traps are encounters. The CRs and ELs suggested (and hence the xp awarded for overcoming them) do assume certain loot values by character level. The 4e designers are bragging that loot is less important in 4e because they only factor in 1 source of to hit bonuses, one source of AC bonuses, and one source of Saves bonuses into their numbers. DDO does the same thing, that's part of the function of the ML system.. allowing the Devs to evaluate loot effects on difficulty without knowing first hand what the characters are.

What kinds of DCs do you think traps should have? If you don't factor in loot, they need to be pretty low. A level 16 28pt human rogue, naked and unbuffed, has about a +20 reflex save vs traps. That fits with nastiest traps in p&p being between 20-30 to save. Are you proposing that elite mod 6 dungeon traps have Save DCs of 25?

Of course, in DDO that character in actual adventuring situations will have a +30 something reflex save even with subpar equipment and no thought whatsoever put into ref saves. If he puts some basic effort into it, it would be +40ish. Guys who really try are +50. I suppose you can just say... well, nothing wrong with overkill. And there is some truth to that... except that traps are encounters and worth xp. So they need to be a challenge or they shouldn't give any xp.

The rules designers for D&D absolutely factor in +saves item expectations into their encounter design and DDO follows suit. They shouldn't set the bar at the uppermost end of possible.... and its possible that they've done that with the current numbers..... but on elite, it should still require some effort to be able to do the traps. Same as with the fights.

Moving the traps way up in challenge on elite is a great move. I think they've overshot a bit, but I don't think they are in total crazy lulu land. A lot of folks are freaking out because they've always treated the traps as trivial and now they aren't. Its not unreasonable to expect the player on elite to learn the best way to disarm traps to minimize their chance of taking damage. That's no different than fighters blocking doorways instead of running into the middle of a swarm.

Are all the safe spots and twitch options reasonable expectations? Not in my opinion. But things are not as bad as folks are saying.

[wizzy_catt]

Moving the traps way up in challenge on elite is a great move. I think they've overshot a bit, but I don't think they are in total crazy lulu land. A lot of folks are freaking out because they've always treated the traps as trivial and now they aren't. Its not unreasonable to expect the player on elite to learn the best way to disarm traps to minimize their chance of taking damage. That's no different than fighters blocking doorways instead of running into the middle of a swarm.Are all the safe spots and twitch options reasonable expectations? Not in my opinion. But things are not as bad as folks are saying.

over shot a bit? you call that overshot a bit? are you (beep)? go in lv1 quest sewer rescue in harbor that trap save dc has been raised up to mid 30s who in the world has +30 saves at lv1-3? thats overshot too much. how about that quest in 3barrels? the scoundrel's run? that ones got extreme deadly traps with no box to disable. dont forget its designed for lv7-9. what now? they going to make extra trap boxes for that quest? i dont think so. a lot of folks are freaking out? no not really. wanna try chains of flames on elite? you take traps as jokes i dodge them like playing mario like i always do. 19+27 save failure 190-200 pts of dmg per hit. 2 hits youre pretty much done. and box is inside the trap you wanna run over and disable it in that kind of trap? chains of flames is for lv12-14s and lv16 characters cant make a save on that, doesnt make sense at all. not in your opinion? what am i reading? its not your opinion then whos comment is this? your contradicting yourself.

[wizzy_catt]

hey devs are you reading this? so many of the same topic here you cant be miss read all of them right? reply and tell us youre alive and not blind. at least i havent seen any replys from ANY of you since first Trap dc thread was posted.

[krud]

over shot a bit? you call that overshot a bit? are you (beep)? go in lv1 quest sewer rescue in harbor that trap save dc has been raised up to mid 30s who in the world has +30 saves at lv1-3? thats overshot too much. how about that quest in 3barrels? the scoundrel's run? that ones got extreme deadly traps with no box to disable. dont forget its designed for lv7-9. what now? they going to make extra trap boxes for that quest? i dont think so. a lot of folks are freaking out? no not really. wanna try chains of flames on elite? you take traps as jokes i dodge them like playing mario like i always do. 19+27 save failure 190-200 pts of dmg per hit. 2 hits youre pretty much done. and box is inside the trap you wanna run over and disable it in that kind of trap? chains of flames is for lv12-14s and lv16 characters cant make a save on that, doesnt make sense at all. not in your opinion? what am i reading? its not your opinion then whos comment is this? your contradicting yourself.

All the harbor traps have boxes before the trap, so there is no need to run thru them to disable them. STK has the first trap i can think of that a lowbie must run thru to get to the box, don't have numbers on it yet. Don't have numbers for many of those other ones either. rainbow in the dark is reported at 45/50/55. Higher than 46 for chains of flame (lvl12) seems high, but not outrageous. An average lvl12 rogue when buffed with GH, haste should get near +40 when using his improved uncanny dodge boost. If your making multiple saves your chances are pretty bad, however most traps have a sweet spot from where you can disable the trap. The trick is finding it, which isn't always easy.

[wizzy_catt]

All the harbor traps have boxes before the trap, so there is no need to run thru them to disable them. STK has the first trap i can think of that a lowbie must run thru to get to the box, don't have numbers on it yet. Don't have numbers for many of those other ones either. rainbow in the dark is reported at 45/50/55. Higher than 46 for chains of flame (lvl12) seems high, but not outrageous. An average lvl12 rogue when buffed with GH, haste, and a parrying item should get near +40 when using his improved uncanny dodge boost. If your making multiple saves your chances are pretty bad, however most traps have a sweet spot from where you can disable the trap.

thank you for pointing out, didnt i say mario? yes 'most traps' have safe spots but can u jump in those spots everytime? considering these factors: lag, first 3saves, 1s, amount of damage taken, no healing support, make up of group...etc. oh arnt you glad all the vale quests trap are now doing 0 dmg on elite? wait till they do 400pts of dmg per second and you'll see ppl (beep)ing about it on the forums.