Trap DCs

[Aladon]

Once again, the players who like DDO hard, repetitive and unpleasant drown out the other voices.

I urge Turbine to look beyond the weight of posts to the core issue of what's fun for the most people. Traps aren't fun to begin with, that's why zerging is so popular.

Making traps the hardest part of the game is not good for the game. Making it so not only can't people zerg, now even many rogues can't survive in (and therefore disable) many traps is bad for the game. Watching rogues die is bad for the game. Waiting to find a rogue to join your party is bad for the game. Forcing rogues to spend resources on reflex saves at the cost of other skills more consistently useful is bad for the game. Making the best trap strategy that players die, run thru the trap then rez to avoid insufficient reflex saves is bad for the game.

The solution is crystal clear (notwithstanding all the bad advice offered by the hard core players who frequent this board):

Ramp up trap damage, as you've done.

Leave spot, search and disable DC's alone, as you've done.

Increase save DC's on traps that don't have to be triggered, as you've done.

However:

Traps that need to be run thru to be disabled should be survivable by balanced rogues (and reasonable rogue hybrids), even on elite.

Traps that cannot be disabled yet must be triggered to accomplish mandatory quest goals should be survivable by balanced rogues (and reasonable rogue hybrids), even on elite.

Regards,

Aladon

[Ironwind]

Once again, the players who like DDO hard, repetitive and unpleasant drown out the other voices.

This is pure hyperbole.
I am not a hardcore player and in my previous post I note that my rogue's skills and saves are average.
I do not list myself as having any elite raid gear, because I don't have any.

Traps that need to be run thru to be disabled should be survivable by balanced rogues (and reasonable rogue hybrids), even on elite.

Traps that cannot be disabled yet must be triggered to accomplish mandatory quest goals should be survivable by balanced rogues (and reasonable rogue hybrids), even on elite.

This is exactly what Turbine has done. If you read my previous post you will see that all of the traps (save cabal elite) can be done by an average rogue played intelligently.

[Aladon]

This is pure hyperbole.
I am not a hardcore player and in my previous post I note that my rogue's skills and saves are average.
I do not list myself as having any elite raid gear, because I don't have any.



This is exactly what Turbine has done. If you read my previous post you will see that all of the traps (save cabal elite) can be done by an average rogue played intelligently.

<shrugs>

Sure, the first part is hyperbole. I wanted to get the attention off the weight of words and onto the substance of the problem. That is what hyperbole is designed to do.

Interestingly, it seems you actually agree with my points. What you disagree about is whether current conditions conform to my suggestions. Yet you provide no hard data, not a single firm point of reference. I cannot then counter you but nor will I simply believe you. I think we can agree that simply because one level capped rogue hasn't found an overly hard trap DC doesn't mean that there aren't any.

Elsewhere (as mentioned above), there is a growing list of DC's across the game. Having acquired good data, we can then do the math. I'm sure we'll find some quests are ok and some aren't so ok. That's pretty clear from the anecdotal evidence. Which is which, we'll find out over time and with a not inconsiderable effort. What I am hoping is that Turbine does the work for us. They have all the DC's already and they can do the math (or even look at the statistics for the community of rogues and rogue hybrids). All they need to do is say, "Yeah, you're right. We'll fix it". Then the rest of us can go back to playing the game instead of being shadow designers.

Best,

Aladon

[Raithe]

For elite I think they should figure it around the rogues class feats, near max attainable attributes, with max gear(ie. for the level quest 14/15 level quest = +15 skill item and +4/5 save item) with MAYBE a 1st teir enhancement line investment.

I disagree, completely. Gear and buffs should never enter the equation. Gear is treasure, which should be reward-like (in that it helps characters close the gap with deficiencies in their build), rather than a release from punishment. Gear can break, gear can never show up in your particular loot table, gear can have effects that should be able to be suppressed by anti-magic fields. Having a supreme master of a skill fail at a difficulty check because he doesn't have +20 gloves of uberness lacks realism and destroys the trade-off qualities of character building.

If they want elite to be about the maximum possible DCs reachable by standard classes (ignoring race), that would be fine. Personally, since I find absolutely no fun at all in number stacking difficulties, I would either get rid of separate difficulties for dungeons, or make them more about player skill, not treasure accumulation.

[krud]

I disagree, completely. Gear and buffs should never enter the equation. Gear is treasure, which should be reward-like (in that it helps characters close the gap with deficiencies in their build), rather than a release from punishment. Gear can break, gear can never show up in your particular loot table, gear can have effects that should be able to be suppressed by anti-magic fields. Having a supreme master of a skill fail at a difficulty check because he doesn't have +20 gloves of uberness lacks realism and destroys the trade-off qualities of character building.

If they want elite to be about the maximum possible DCs reachable by standard classes (ignoring race), that would be fine. Personally, since I find absolutely no fun at all in number stacking difficulties, I would either get rid of separate difficulties for dungeons, or make them more about player skill, not treasure accumulation.

you can't ignore gear, especially considering it currently supplies up to +15 skill points, almost double what you get from max ranks. It's reasonable to think a level 10 rogue should have at least +7-9 spot/search/DD items and design quests accordingly. With better gear you get a better chance. Buffs, self or otherwise, make up for differences in gear, or build deficiencies.

Again, how many times do you go into a big fight on elite completely unbuffed? How many times do you do that with average characters who have no decent gear? It's going to be difficult.

[Raithe]

you can't ignore gear, especially considering it currently supplies up to +15 skill points,...

One of the chief problems with a Monty Haul loot system...

This could be repaired by putting a cap on magic levels that can be stored on a character at the same time. If a rogue wants to bring his +5 resistance item, he may have to leave his armor behind, or his +15 search goggles.

Upping DCs makes the game unattractive to all but the most loot-hungry - as has been said a thousand times over the last year.

[wizzy_catt]

just wanted to also note the 11 rogue lvls also gives improved evasion cutting the damage in half. rabbit gloves are also another option for +1 more. I personally love the fact that pure rogues/pure dedicated trapsmiths, will make quests easier..

does rabbit glove stack with head of good fortune? i thought it only takes highest value one +2 to luck?

[Naash]

Here are my stats:
Lvl 16 pure Rogue
Base Reflex Save 10
Dex 30 (+10)
Resist Item (+4)
Greater Hero. (+4)
Self-buffed Reflex Save +28
vs Traps my Reflex Save is +33 due to Trap Sense Feat.

I have the UMD and foresight to carry a stack of GH scrolls.
I also carry Recitation wands for an extra +2 but rarely need it.
I can also pop Improved Uncanny Dodge for another +4.
I don't have any Trap Sense Enhancements.

Unbuffed Skills
Spot - 38
Search - 46
Disable Device - 47
Open Lock - 51

Considering all of the numbers I've provided, my character is not mathematically optimized for traps. Yet I cannot think of a single trap that I have failed to find or disable since I've hit 16. (cabal elite the only exception)

Reference this post
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=541350&postcount=1
for specific numbers required to spot, search & disable all traps in the game.

Also with my Improved Evasion and mediocre Reflex save, I have yet to be killed trying to disable a trap.
So, honestly, I'd like to say I feel bad for those of you that are upset about the higher DCs, but I don't.
If your old method of doing traps isn't working, maybe you should slow down and think through a new approach.

Now, as a side bonus of not wasting all my build points in Way of the Mechanic and maximum dexterity scores and other goofy shizit, I can also do very well with dps. I'm not always first on the kill count, but I'm always in the top 3, and I've out damaged many a barbarian in my day. I also have 222 hit points; a really nice UMD and 11 capped skills. I can rez, heal, dps and take out traps. I also make a mean cappuccino!

You really do not need to waste all your precious build points into trapsmithing to be a great rogue. Play smarter.



Another excellent reference for trap DCs
http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/DDO_in...raps_and_locks


My skill breakdown.
Spot - 38
19 ranks
+15 item
+2 elf racial
+2 enhancments

Search - 46
19 ranks
+15 item
+6 int bonus
+2 elf racial
+4 enhancements

Disable Device - 47
19 ranks
+15 item
+6 int bonus
+7 tools

Open Lock - 51
19 ranks
+15 item
+10 dex bonus
+7 tools

Well said sir,couldnt agree more!

[Vormaerin]

I've never played a CRPG type game that wasn't monty haul, unfortunately. If you don't factor in loot, especially at this point, the game is a joke. Personally, +skills items are something I loathe in my p&p games (regardless of system) and always have. But they are integral to DDO now. I don't think its productive to aim for a massive loot nerf at this point.

Normal mode: Should be doable by just about any pure rogue that isn't completely bizarre. Or any MC Rogue that pays attention to trapsmithing (without needing serious sacrifices).

Hard: Pure rogue should have to pay attention... meaning level appropriate gear (even the p&p game assumes this, though the numbers on that are much much less), good stats, and 'something else': buffs, feats, or enhancements. MCRogues pretty much the same, except may need more of the "something else" if there isn't direct synergy between their classes.

Elite: Everyone should have to put some effort into it. Should need buffs and some feats/enhancements. Dex based rogues with resilience, 10pts of the upcoming trapsense or other enhancements, and top of the line non raid gear can get into the mid fifties. That doesn't sound unreasonable to me for elite. Str rogues and MC Rogues would need more feats or enhancements.

I don't think "everything except cabal elite" should be attainable by splash builds with no innate synergy unless they make serious efforts in terms of APs and feats or raid gear or whatever. Again, ref saves are only relevant on a small number of traps. So the fact that the splash build can handle 90% of the rogue content without that high cost seems pretty good to me. Elite does need to be more than the default can handle, imho.

Btw, IRONWIND

No one is discussing skills. Skills are easy. Any blind monkey can have the skills to do all the traps in the game except cabal elite. Its reflex saves that are the issue in this thread. Ref saves to do Stk fire room, pit lightning, scoundrel's run fire passage and other 'must make ref saves to succeed' traps. You might want to take your low 30s ref saves into those traps on elite now and see how easy it is.

[Raithe]

Normal mode: Should be doable by just about any pure rogue that isn't completely bizarre. Or any MC Rogue that pays attention to trapsmithing (without needing serious sacrifices).

Hard: Pure rogue should have to pay attention... meaning level appropriate gear (even the p&p game assumes this, though the numbers on that are much much less), good stats, and 'something else': buffs, feats, or enhancements. MCRogues pretty much the same, except may need more of the "something else" if there isn't direct synergy between their classes.

Elite: Everyone should have to put some effort into it. Should need buffs and some feats/enhancements. Dex based rogues with resilience, 10pts of the upcoming trapsense or other enhancements, and top of the line non raid gear can get into the mid fifties. That doesn't sound unreasonable to me for elite. Str rogues and MC Rogues would need more feats or enhancements.

This is elitism without justification. Why can't a new player join a highly experienced group and fill a role while running with them? Why is a player who knows the game very well removed from consideration for a role because he hasn't farmed the right item?

There are legitimate reasons to put DCs at a certain level - the most notable one being realism. Elitism is not one of those legitimate reasons.

[Vormaerin]

Uhh, nothing I've mentioned is hard to get. I'm not talking raid loot or whatever. Just level appropriate gear, ie stuff within a few MLs of you. I suppose a barbarian would be effective at lvl 10 in plain +1 stuff?

If you don't factor in level appropriate gear (which is a core concept of 3.5e p&p, btw), then everything is a joke. If all the fighters have +3 true chaos cheesegraters of ultimate doom and you balance the monsters as if they were fighting with starter swords, its not going to be any challenge. The same is true of basic rogue items, mainly +skills stuff, tools, and (for elite) +ref save items.

A LotRO 'your loot is almost completely irrelevant' style or a D&D 4e "only three pieces of loot actually matter" style might be better in some sense (a lot of players play for loot, so don't like that kind of game play), but the ship has sailed there. You can't get it back into the harbor until DDO2, which will be 4e and use radically different rules anyway.

[Emili]

does rabbit glove stack with head of good fortune? i thought it only takes highest value one +2 to luck?

No rabbit gloves do not stack with the head... they're both luck bonus.

[Karavek]

I ran STK on elite last night with a pug averaging lvls 5-7.Most of us where ranger hybrids myself a 2/3 rge ranger with decent trap skills( id performed well in many quest up to hard with about 70% success taking traps with a disable skill equal to a lvl 3 pure rogue with decent spot and search(though im starting to think spot is just moot when there is almost always at least one party member who knows where to search for a box already). However we also had a 6/1 rge ftr who was a strong if not master trapsmith. almost every trap we encountered took several trys for the rogue and several blew on him one actually killing a ranger ftr who was standing to close who had been at more then half life( i had no idea the boxes where blowing for so much dmg until then). When we reached the final chapter and got to the acid trap across from the shrine and the box blew there we ended up suffering many fatalities jsut trying to get through and deal with the onslaught of hob goblins on the other side when every attempt to run for and get through to the level after the fire trap ladder cost our rogue another death( I to kept pitting my evasion and 17 ref save agaisnt the rain of spells and the fire trap while trying to reach the lever).

Eventually we beat the hobies back and somehow i made the top of the ladder and took hit the switch and leapt for my life as there where a few shamans left on the top tier who made lingering dangerous. It was however complete and utter disaster when we reached the great room of flaming death pillars. Once upon a time even on elite I had similar builds as my current ranger rogue dance through the flame my evasion being more then enough as it should be even on elite. Now not even our rogue with all the buffs our wizard could summon where enough to give protection enough for the rogue to reach even the first box, my own best run with fire pro and fire resist a cats grace, bears endurance, false life, aid, my 17 ref save with the trapblast goggles id twinked from an old version of my build, couldnt reach past the first spike trap before the flame barrages caught me( maybe my jumping skills are rusty but I doubt I could of done much more to avoid all the fire) and turned me to bacon. after our rogue tried valiantly to recover stones at the least or even jsut run across all failed and he died countless times we had to admit defeat. Now I know STK on elite is around a lvl 7 challenge but that shouldnt mean it takes a devoted trap smith who couldnt of done much in any of the hard fights to take the traps that have to be taken to jsut reach the boss.

My suggestion make even elite trap dcs low again, make it alot more xp to disable each one so people wont want to see a trap skipped through for the sake of xp. Id bet make each trap grant a 20%/30%/40% xp bonus depending on challenge rating would make hybrid rogues invaluable as hell as long as the skill it takes isnt askign us to forsake our combat skills. Rogue are two things thief and ninja and must be able to do both not one or the other. If folks still would rather zerg then see 2 or 3 times the base xp of a quest let em, we rogues can then expect to level faster from one run then they will zerging 3 times.

[krud]

Elite: Everyone should have to put some effort into it. Should need buffs and some feats/enhancements. Dex based rogues with resilience, 10pts of the upcoming trapsense or other enhancements, and top of the line non raid gear can get into the mid fifties. That doesn't sound unreasonable to me for elite. Str rogues and MC Rogues would need more feats or enhancements.

lol, there isn't any more a str based/MC rogue can do on top of that list you provided.

btw - my first test in von5, the 1st horizontal blade trap to the west 24n/36h/48e. not too bad, imo.

[Emili]

Here are my stats:
Lvl 16 pure Rogue
Base Reflex Save 10
Dex 30 (+10)
Resist Item (+4)
Greater Hero. (+4)
Self-buffed Reflex Save +28
vs Traps my Reflex Save is +33 due to Trap Sense Feat.

I have the UMD and foresight to carry a stack of GH scrolls.
I also carry Recitation wands for an extra +2 but rarely need it.
I can also pop Improved Uncanny Dodge for another +4.
I don't have any Trap Sense Enhancements.

Unbuffed Skills
Spot - 38
Search - 46
Disable Device - 47
Open Lock - 51

Considering all of the numbers I've provided, my character is not mathematically optimized for traps. Yet I cannot think of a single trap that I have failed to find or disable since I've hit 16. (cabal elite the only exception)

Reference this post
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=541350&postcount=1
for specific numbers required to spot, search & disable all traps in the game.

Also with my Improved Evasion and mediocre Reflex save, I have yet to be killed trying to disable a trap.
So, honestly, I'd like to say I feel bad for those of you that are upset about the higher DCs, but I don't.
If your old method of doing traps isn't working, maybe you should slow down and think through a new approach.

Now, as a side bonus of not wasting all my build points in Way of the Mechanic and maximum dexterity scores and other goofy shizit, I can also do very well with dps. I'm not always first on the kill count, but I'm always in the top 3, and I've out damaged many a barbarian in my day. I also have 222 hit points; a really nice UMD and 11 capped skills. I can rez, heal, dps and take out traps. I also make a mean cappuccino!

You really do not need to waste all your precious build points into trapsmithing to be a great rogue. Play smarter.



Another excellent reference for trap DCs
http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/DDO_in...raps_and_locks


My skill breakdown.
Spot - 38
19 ranks
+15 item
+2 elf racial
+2 enhancments

Search - 46
19 ranks
+15 item
+6 int bonus
+2 elf racial
+4 enhancements

Disable Device - 47
19 ranks
+15 item
+6 int bonus
+7 tools

Open Lock - 51
19 ranks
+15 item
+10 dex bonus
+7 tools

33 is not very high at all for a pure rogue as most simths can breach 50 reflex save buffed. I have 33 trap reflex on my 12 ranger/4 rogue with the 2 lvls of trapsmith she has add her uncanny on before any buff so goes to 37 (when I get a head of good fortune on her will be 39). I've would consider putting 2 levels of pally on her to push her into 40's ... but in my mind pally and rogue should never meet as backstabbing is not an honorable thing for a pally. However that in itself means she'd still would need about 10 more points in reflex saves for some run in trap boxes. The biggest diff in a pure are just this... improved uncanny, 2 higher levels of trapsense and of course improved evasion. All in all 4 points from my build should I have built a 34dex pure rouge instead. As it stands the best approach now is just to run thru with a high HP barb with dodge on and res plp on the other side via a clicky.

[Raithe]

Uhh, nothing I've mentioned is hard to get. I'm not talking raid loot or whatever. Just level appropriate gear, ie stuff within a few MLs of you. I suppose a barbarian would be effective at lvl 10 in plain +1 stuff?

Yes, of course he would. No offense, but asking that question makes you sound very unexperienced with D&D and roleplaying in general. I'll assume it was just a sudden lapse in understanding.

If you don't factor in level appropriate gear (which is a core concept of 3.5e p&p, btw), then everything is a joke. If all the fighters have +3 true chaos cheesegraters of ultimate doom and you balance the monsters as if they were fighting with starter swords, its not going to be any challenge. The same is true of basic rogue items, mainly +skills stuff, tools, and (for elite) +ref save items.

So what's your argument here? I was going to mention that you could turn what I said before completely around, and the argument remains intact. Why should someone who has farmed everything in the game and knows quests inside out go completely unchallenged by elite? They'll get bored regardless of how high you set DCs, because they have everything. DCs are not set to measure loot acquisition. Aside from primarily being a realistic measure of the complexity of what is being described by the storyline of an RPG module, DCs are set so that the party makeup has differentiated roles. In an MMO they therefore need to be pretty lax because as a developer you have no idea what the party makeup is going to be. With the existing game rules and reasonable DCs, you can be fairly certain that a pure sorceror will not be the primary choice for retrieving the second horn of the Crucible.

I can understand why many of the existing players want to be differentiated by their loot acquisition, because that's all they've got out of DDO so far. If it's allowed to continue, however, they will suffocate themselves out of playing the game, and everyone else who hasn't been playing forever will have already disappeared.

[Vormaerin]

The lvl 10 barb would be effective as long as he didn't meet specific kinds of challenges normally considered with in his level of ability. Go to the wizards of the coast forums (Or any other D&D forums) and hear all about how loot assumptions are integral to the game mechanics. Trust me, I know because I run a very low magic item campaign and everyone is in total disbelief that the game system even functions like that. It does, but the DM (ie me) needs to be a lot more careful about the threats utilized. You aren't fighting a beholder at lvl 8 with the kind of loot you get in one of my campaigns.

In DDO, a negligibly equipped barb would have a very hard time functioning on level appropriate elite quests (he'd do fine on most normals diff quests). He'd still be of some value, but way under the expectations of the challenges presented. Similiarly, the rogue would be effective without trapmongering gear either.. as long as he didn't meet certain kinds of challenges. The primary role of EVERY D&D class is combat. Every class also has a secondary thing that they do. Trap mongering is not why you bring a rogue. You bring a rogue because they scout and do high burst damage through sneak attacks. (DDO devalues both those reasons, but that's another issue).

In p&p, there's not much loot that adds to skills. It mainly adds to combat. So combat numbers are designed with loot in mind, but skill DCs aren't. In DDO, there is a metric ton of skill boosting items. Not my cup of tea, but something that has to be accounted for. They should have wickedly nerfed all skills items when they did it for UMD, but they didn't. There is hardly a DC over 25 in p&p. That's about what skills plus normal stats can manage. If we operated like that in DDO, traps would be irrelevant after about lvl 6.

I really don't know what the elite player with all the uber loot does for a challenge, because I've never played a character like that. Personally, I think I'm one of those guys you think is going to be driven out of the game: I don't have a capped sugar daddy character or piles of phat lewt to twink downwards. Zero raid loot between all my characters (unless you count the Elemental Mithral Breastplate from TS?). Only do one or two quests most nights I play, because I don't zerg. And I've never had a problem finding or buying the skill items needed to meet the challenges my rogue has faced.

The new elite trap DCs are worrisome, though I don't play elite that often. But so far I've heard a lot more hysteria than facts about them. They certainly seem to attainable with the kind of gear that you would think someone playing quests on elite would have combined with a reasonable expenditure of feats and APs. The splashes may need to wade a little deeper (like your example barb/rogue did by picking up another level of rogue) for those handful of traps that ref save is critical for (there aren't many).

The traps were changed, it seems to me, because everyone and their brother could walk right through them. They might as well not even have been there. I think one of the cool things about DDO is that it even has traps. Non D&D based games almost never do. Ideally, they'll matter with or without a rogue along and it is possible, but difficult, to get past them without one. (and I don't mean 'die and rez on the other side'). There are players who claim that every trap in the game is like that already. I don't have that kind of skill or knowledge or whatever, though.

I don't think we are at the 'sweet spot' for trap design in DDO right now. I think we are closer than we were before Mod 6. A little scale back, at least on certain traps, seems reasonable. I don't think we should go back to where the feats and APs spent on traps are a total black hole of wasted effort because they are overkill on even a rogue 2 splash.

[Raithe]

Go to the wizards of the coast forums (Or any other D&D forums) and hear all about how loot assumptions are integral to the game mechanics.

I think Wizards of the Coast (which you know is not the original owner of D&D) is a large part of the problem here. I don't think they are very interested in roleplaying anymore, and it seems they have a large degree of controversy within their own ranks. I am sure I could get any answer I wanted from their forums, just like I can get 7 different answers about simple things like Hold Monster on a warforged, and whether or not heavy fortification protects against vorpals.

The primary role of EVERY D&D class is combat.

Off topic and incredibly wrong. The generic role of every D&D class is adventuring, and some excel at such without any combat at all.

If we operated like that in DDO, traps would be irrelevant after about lvl 6.

This is sooo confusing. What in the world does this mean? Traps do half damage to everyone without evasion. Currently, only rogues and rangers have evasion (in the future, monks). Even if you assume that everyone will be able to make their saves consistently in elite content, the damage done against non-evaders will be a deterrent for all but the highest hit point characters. I would like to see a super high hitpoint character, without evasion, who can consistently save against DC 37 traps yet still remains viable for other purposes besides surviving traps... is someone really that worried about dwarven paladins who can barely hit stuff and when they do the mob goes, "Ow, you poked me?"

Characters with evasion should be good at evading. Period. Even if they are slightly underequipped and new to DDO, but not new to D&D. It kind of makes up for all the times they get ganked by a beholder's disentigrate ray...

[Thrudh]

[FONT=Arial][COLOR=PaleGreen]Here are my stats:
Lvl 16 pure Rogue
Base Reflex Save 10
Dex 30 (+10)
Resist Item (+4)
Greater Hero. (+4)
Self-buffed Reflex Save +28
vs Traps my Reflex Save is +33 due to Trap Sense Feat.

I have the UMD and foresight to carry a stack of GH scrolls.
I also carry Recitation wands for an extra +2 but rarely need it.
I can also pop Improved Uncanny Dodge for another +4.
I don't have any Trap Sense Enhancements.

Unbuffed Skills
Spot - 38
Search - 46
Disable Device - 47
Open Lock - 51

Considering all of the numbers I've provided, my character is not mathematically optimized for traps. Yet I cannot think of a single trap that I have failed to find or disable since I've hit 16. (cabal elite the only exception)

Nobody is complaining about being able to find or disable traps... Those numbers didn't change...

Take your pure 16th level rogue into VON 5 on elite with your 33 reflex save and run through the blade traps to get to the box on the other side... tell me how you do...

[Thrudh]

This is exactly what Turbine has done. If you read my previous post you will see that all of the traps (save cabal elite) can be done by an average rogue played intelligently.

You haven't done all the high-level traps since the change...

You haven't done all the traps as a low-level or mid-level rogue since the change either.

You can't state that "ALL the traps can be handled by an average rogue played intelligently" because you haven't tried them all SINCE THE CHANGE....