weapon finesse & drow bards

[CSFurious]

i have a question for the bard gurus

first, it is easier for a drow to get a higher dex than str

second, rapiers & shortswords are finessable

therefore, does it make sense for a drow two-weapon fighting bard to take weapon finesse as a feat?

i am planning out a 14 bard/2 fighter with the following dex & str:

dex: 17 + 1 tome = 18 + 2 enhancements = 20 + 4 level-ups = 24 + 6 item = 30

str: 15 + 1 tome = 16 + 1 enhancement = 17 + 5 item = 22 + 2 rage = 24

my instinct tells me that since i will be mostly fighting with rapiers & shortswords that i should take advantage of that 30 dex by selecting weapon finesse

thanks in advance for any assistance

[EinarMal]

i have a question for the bard gurus

first, it is easier for a drow to get a higher dex than str

second, rapiers & shortswords are finessable

therefore, does it make sense for a drow two-weapon fighting bard to take weapon finesse as a feat?

i am planning out a 14 bard/2 fighter with the following dex & str:

dex: 17 + 1 tome = 18 + 2 enhancements = 20 + 4 level-ups = 24 + 6 item = 30

str: 15 + 1 tome = 16 + 1 enhancement = 17 + 5 item = 22 + 2 rage = 24

my instinct tells me that since i will be mostly fighting with rapiers & shortswords that i should take advantage of that 30 dex by selecting weapon finesse

thanks in advance for any assistance

I did something like this once and re-rolled. To me you are better off going strength over dex for level ups, the only upside for dex is you can get it a bit higher, but you can get pretty high to-hit regardless.

I always start with

16 Str
16 Dex
12 Con
16 Cha

It really makes no sense to put all your level ups into Dex. Either put them in strength or charisma. Either way even without any level ups into strength you can easily hit 26 strength which is more than enough to do what you need to do with TWF.

If you are worried about STWF do the following:

Str=16(Base) +3(Levels) +1(Ftr) +6(Item) +2(Rage spell)=28
Dex=16(Base) +1(Level) +2(Favor Tome) +1(Enh.) +6(Item)=26
Cha=16(Base) +1(Tome) +3(Enh) +6(Item)=26

Dex is just not worth wasting more than 1 level up into. Save the feat and go strength, or put your level ups into strength/charisma. Heck Con would be better than dex to put level ups into in my opinion.

[CSFurious]

thanks, i am going to split level-ups between str & con to make myself a little less squishy & a little more stronger

& no weapon finesse frees up a feat, i think i will take improved mental toughness so i never run out of mana

peace

[skraus1]

I hate the connectivity issues today...just lost a nice long post. Trying to recreate

I did something like this once and re-rolled. To me you are better off going strength over dex for level ups, the only upside for dex is you can get it a bit higher, but you can get pretty high to-hit regardless.
.

Rage and the +1 str fighter enhancement nullifies the advantage drow bards have toward dex.

16+4 level +1 tome +1 enhancement +2 rage +6 item = 30 str.
So no to hit advantage unless you pretty well max you dex to 20

Str based drow gives you 1) same basic to hit, 2) saves a feat in a feat starved class, 3) saves aps, and 4) gives you more damage.

Avoid finesse builds whenever possible.

If you are worried about STWF do the following:
.

The requirment for STWF will be bab 15 or bab 16. So by going bard 18/fighter 2, you will never be able to take it unless you get a fighter feat at level 20. Level 20 gives a stat level up, so don't even worry about STWF if you start with a 16 dex until level 20....at which point a +2 favor tome and a +1 stat level will qualify you.

Dex is just not worth wasting more than 1 level up into. Save the feat and go strength, or put your level ups into strength/charisma. Heck Con would be better than dex to put level ups into in my opinion.

I second Einar's opinion, as long as you can get a dex 17, dex is a waste on a melee bard. Str and/or cha is more important.

[EinarMal]

Rage and the +1 str fighter enhancement nullifies the advantage drow bards have toward dex.

Avoid finesse builds whenever possible.


The requirment for STWF will be bab 15 or bab 16. So by going bard 18/fighter 2, you will never be able to take it unless you get a fighter feat at level 20. Level 20 gives a stat level up, so don't even worry about STWF if you start with a 16 dex until level 20....at which point a +2 favor tome and a +1 stat level will qualify you.
I second Einar's opinion, as long as you can get a dex 17, dex is a waste on a melee bard. Str and/or cha is more important.

Not entirely true as dex is a cheaper buy for Drow than strength, but again I agree that going dex/finesse is not a good idea.

I would assume he is planning on taking at least 2 more fighter levels to end up something like Bard 16/Fighter 4 so that he can pick up STWF, but that would be just an assumption but I see no reason to go Bard 18/Fighter 2, the 16/4 split will be better.

[Westerner]

Str based drow gives you 1) same basic to hit, 2) saves a feat in a feat starved class, 3) saves aps, and 4) gives you more damage. Avoid finesse builds whenever possible.

Not entirely true as dex is a cheaper buy for Drow than strength, but again I agree that going dex/finesse is not a good idea.

I'm not sure this is so clear cut for sword/board or TWF builds. There's a STR vs DEX thread in the ranger forums discussing the same topic. I'll address Skraus' points to try and explore this question:

1) DEX provides higher to-hit than STR due to racial stat bonuses. Esp. useful on special effects weapons.
2) true, it costs a feat
3) AP costs are justified if it's DPS you're after
4) true, DEX does less damage, but is offset by higher to-hit, and PA on some builds

Additonal DEX benefits include reflex save, AC, and ranging. If DEX is viable for a ranger, why can't it be viable for a bard?

[Schmackdown]

I'm not sure this is so clear cut for sword/board or TWF builds. There's a STR vs DEX thread in the ranger forums discussing the same topic.

From what I can tell, the only thing melee-wise flexing your DEX does is give you +3 to hit over a STR build. A crude summary to be sure, but is it far off?

Additonal DEX benefits include reflex save, AC, and ranging. If DEX is viable for a ranger, why can't it be viable for a bard?

I would say it's certainly a viable focus for those bards that can really get something out of DEX- to me, that's Evasion, and little else. Otherwise, it's a feat sink that limits you to a short list of weapons to get the to-hit bonus, and you can get the +damage racial enhancements regardless of Finesse or not. I don't value AC on any of my bards, and seldom range. I do, however, use Tactics often, which STR assists.

Re: DEX viability vis-a-vis Rangers and Bards, well, it just has more potential upside for Rangers, starting with Evasion, potentially AC and definitely ranged combat if they choose to employ it. They also might need that to-hit more than a bard would, as they lack the inherent self-buffing.

I don't think Finesse means your bard is gimped, but as others have said I just don't think the DEX/Finesse combo gives you as much bang for the buck on a non-Evasion build as STR-based options might. Some build to min/max, others build for fun. "viable" falls somewhere inbetween, imo.

[EinarMal]

I'm not sure this is so clear cut for sword/board or TWF builds. There's a STR vs DEX thread in the ranger forums discussing the same topic. I'll address Skraus' points to try and explore this question:

1) DEX provides higher to-hit than STR due to racial stat bonuses. Esp. useful on special effects weapons.
2) true, it costs a feat
3) AP costs are justified if it's DPS you're after
4) true, DEX does less damage, but is offset by higher to-hit, and PA on some builds

Additonal DEX benefits include reflex save, AC, and ranging. If DEX is viable for a ranger, why can't it be viable for a bard?

Ok, just an FYI Ranger != Bard. As skraus1 pointed out, as did I, dex does not get you much if any higher to hit for a Bard. Rangers have dex enhancements and Bards do not. You cannot copy/paste something from another class thread without thinking things through for yourself and understanding what you are talking about.

Bards have the rage spell which is +2 to strength and the 14/2 build we are talking about here is another +1 to strength. So, even with Drow dex bonus of +2 you are looking at +3 strength versus +2 dex, plus starting 2 higher so really +4 dex or +3 strength.

So at best you have a potential of +1 to hit for a feat (weapon finesse) and 6 AP, not very good eh? So, you do not have higher to hit, at best +1, and you do less damage per swing, sometimes as much as 5 or more per swing depending on your starting strength.

Dex does not increase damage, and unless you are getting a significantly higher to-hit per swing you will do less damage, there is no way a dex based Bard can compete with a strength based one in TWF period. The numbers just do not work out that way.

BTW the whole jist of the elf/drow dex Ranger argument is really an argument for how good w-p weapons are. Take those away and again strength based is better period, especially if Dwarf.

[skraus1]

With connectivity issues, I was not as detailed in my post as I originally was, so a little perspective was lost in the recreation of the post.

Rage and the +1 str fighter enhancement nullifies the advantage drow bards have toward dex.

Let's compare max str versus max dex on a bard 14/fighter2, with +3 tome since those are the current max
str 18+ 1 fighter enhancement +3 tome + 4 levels +6 item +2 rage= 34
dex 20+ 2Drow enhancement +3 tome + 4 levels +6 item= 35

So we are talking about a potential 1 point difference in dex, which isn't even +1 to hit, at the cost of 4 additional aps and one feat for the drow.

Advantages:
The dex fighter has a higher reflex save but doesn't have the evasion to make use out of it adequately. Also can range ok if speced for it (and if so is not a melee bard). Also has a higher AC, but I rarely see ACs posted on Bard builds anymore because they almost always rely on displacement at cap for ACs < 50.

The str fighter can use any type of melee weapon equally well and does significantly more damage per hit.

Bards make better dps melee than defensive melee, hence my comment that bard melee finesse builds should be avoided.
In my opinion, even a wounding of puncturing bard build should be str based because dex buys you so little for a bard.

Not entirely true as dex is a cheaper buy for Drow than strength, but again I agree that going dex/finesse is not a good idea.

Melee builds like the opp was suggesting should start with at least a 16 str if str based and an 18 dex if drow/elf and finesse based, so the cost is the same for most builds.

[EinarMal]

Melee builds like the opp was suggesting should start with at least a 16 str if str based and an 18 if drow/elf and finesse based, so the cost is the same for most builds.

Again I am not arguing with you, about finesse being a poor choice, but last time I checked 18>16 for the same build points so the cost is not the same.

You are also cheating a bit on the max numbers, a dex build could go Bard 14/Ranger 2 and get a +1 to hit, or you could consider that eventually you will get +5 from level ups which would also be +1.

It really does work out to about +1 more to-hit if you fairly look at the numbers.

Still not even close to being worth it.

[Westerner]

I appreciate the points made on Evasion, class enhancements, and ranging all serving to devalue DEX on a bard vs a ranger.

However, if you're going TWF, aren't you forced to make a substantial DEX investment already, to 17 before items/enhancements (19 for future STWF)? Why not leverage that? By comparison, rangers can get away with less DEX b/c they get TWF for free.

[EinarMal]

I appreciate the points made on Evasion, class enhancements, and ranging all serving to devalue DEX on a bard vs a ranger.

However, if you're going TWF, aren't you forced to make a substantial DEX investment already, to 17 (or 19 for future STWF)? Why not leverage that?

Because it gains you nothing, or very little beyond the feats. So you start with 16 and eat a +1 tome for 17 dex. Pure Bards cannot take STWF at all, it is supposed to require 15 BAB which Bards don't hit until after their last feat at 18.

Bards already have a very good reflex save, but no evasion. AC typically is too low to bother with on a TWF Bard. So more dex gets you nothing, you might as well put level ups into strength and gain more damage per swing.

It makes no sense to burn a feat and action points, when you could have simply started with 16 str/16 dex and went strength to begin with. You end up with practically the same to-hit but more damage. It really is a no brainer for Bards.

[skraus1]

Again I am not arguing with you, about finesse being a poor choice, but last time I checked 18>16 for the same build points so the cost is not the same.

I forgot to put the word "dex" in front of the "drow/elf and finesse based."

A drow/elf build gets a starting dex of 10, so an 18 dex costs the same 10pts as a 16 str.

[Amabel]

If you're talking about DPS, STR kills DEX on a bard.

The only reason I can think of to make a DEX bard is if you're interested in parts of the game other than DPS (eg, you want to range, or be able to tumble well, or something else I can't think of). As best I can tell bard AC is meaningless once you get fearsome armour and DEX doesn't help that much. And reflex saves are pretty good anyway.

My main started with 16 DEX and was a TWF warchanter build (although used Carnifex until mid-levels) and was very effective once improved TWF kicked in, especially with the drow melee enhancements. I put points into CHA as I leveled (played it safe). Then I ended up converting her to a spellsinger for a while, and didn't notice too much difference in her melee ability. Now I swap every now and then. She's very versatile and I do like TWF - so enough DEX for that is probably worthwhile on a drow, who can achieve it easily.

However, I'm contemplating a reroll with DEX as more or less a dump stat and using a big axe. Maybe a drow with STR 16, DEX 10, CON 13, INT 10, WIS 8 and CHA 18.

So, after all that rambling my point is really that you should take just enough DEX for any feats you want (TWF) line, and otherwise treat it like a dump stat.

(Oh - and if you want to "tank" as a bard, just roll a dwarf. No drow bard will ever be better than second line DPS in a competent, balanced party. [and I don't mean that badly, cause the drow will likely CC MUCH better than the ugly dwarf])

[Dailus]

I have a dex based sword and board bard and a str based twf bard. AT 15th level my finesse bard only bangs out about 40 points of dmg a blow while my 4th level str bard is already doing that much dmg. Granted I only have one decent pucturing weapon on my high level and usually relys on elemental/holy weapons, but its not hard to see that my str based bard will do way more dps when he catches up in level. Also I usally am riding at about +30 to hit with my high level and I am already sitting at +12/+12 with my 4th level twfer. I predict that my str based bard is going to be far superior to my dex based bard in melee any way you slice it.

-Dailus

[Westerner]

Is it fair to compare TWF vs Sword/Board?

I'm seeing some handwaving on the STR vs DEX arguments. Have the numbers been crunched already somewhere? If not I'll try to pull something together.

[geezee]

This is a very old debate which goes back before the infamous forum wipe. In my experience, STR is far superior to DEX on a melee bard. Back in the day, Einer Mal used to argue against me, but he eventually came around too. Having played both types of bards, all I can say is that the difference is huge. The STR build kills faster, takes less damage, gets an extra feat, and uses less mana for healing. By comparison, I found the DEX build very frustrating to play after having tried STR. And by the way, the STR build can use holy, banishing, puncturing and whatever weapons too, just fine.

FYI, the difference in damage is a hell of a lot more than 5 points per swing. By the time you factor in STR, weapon base damage (finesse weapons are pathetic), and power attack, there isnt much comparison. The bard buffs are so potent that you really dont have to worry about your attack roll, and you can leave PA on most of the time.

But dont take my word for it. Try both and see which one you like better.

[Dailus]

Is it fair to compare TWF vs Sword/Board?

I'm seeing some handwaving on the STR vs DEX arguments. Have the numbers been crunched already somewhere? If not I'll try to pull something together.

Maybe not, but the point I was trying to make was that even with my -2/-2 for twf I believe that my to hit will be comparable and my dmg will be much more. *shrugs* Just relaying my personal experience.

-Dailus

[CSFurious]

i am already level 2 bard & with 16 str, bard song & drow weapon enhancements, i am doing pretty well just fighting 1-handed with nushmar's adamantine tooth

i have 47 hitpoints, sort of squishy but not bad for a pure drow bard

i am not even going to start fighting 2-weapon until i get some better buffs at like level 6 or 7

i am going to increase con at 4, 8, 12 & str at 15

at current level-cap, i will be 13 bard/3 fighter, maybe 14/2 for the improved inspire courage

[geezee]

Looks pretty strong. You should blow through the low levels with this type of toon. And yes, I would go 2 handed til at least level 6. I would almost certainly go 14/2 over 13/3. Only thing I would do different is put levelups into STR instead of CON. Not such a big deal, but STR is a bit more useful than CON on these kinds of builds.