Another heighten query

[Affront]

I took heighten at level 15. I had read some of the comments coming out of Risia about spell penetration being a much bigger thing in the new module and knew that monsters would likely have better DCs with their increased levels. I'm not using it. I'm not finding a reason to use it. When do people who use heighten use it?

Here is my scenario. I have 34 intelligence. I have a spell penetration VII item and all of the spell penetration enhancements (I beat spell resistance most of the time). I have the Stormreaver's napkin (smells like beer). I fail infrequently. I haven't kept track but my success rate with finger of death, banishment, and phantasmal killer is pretty high without using heighten. Would I see something much much closer to 100% success with hieghten turned on?

[Vienemen]

Your not seeing the benefit with heighten much on FoD. It is being increased only 1 DC. You will see lower level spells benefit much more from heighten. I always have it on because I use a mix of spells for my CC. Web and other lower level spells can be adjusted as high as by 7 DC with heighten on.

My advice is choose both heighten and spell penetration unless you dont use low level spells with saves anymore.

I have the Stormreaver's napkin (smells like beer).

heh

[Wu_Jen]

Fear would be a good reason to keep it. As Vienemen said, lower level spells benefit the most from it.

P.s. You'll never see 100% the most you can ever hope to see is 95%.

[Hadrian]

Things do not auto-save on a 20. You can get to 100%

[Osharan_Tregarth]

I took heighten at level 15. I had read some of the comments coming out of Risia about spell penetration being a much bigger thing in the new module and knew that monsters would likely have better DCs with their increased levels. I'm not using it. I'm not finding a reason to use it. When do people who use heighten use it?

Here is my scenario. I have 34 intelligence.
good
I have a spell penetration VII item and all of the spell penetration enhancements (I beat spell resistance most of the time).
Also good, but doesn't have anything to do with Heighten.
I have the Stormreaver's napkin (smells like beer). I fail infrequently.
Me too.. Very nice.
I haven't kept track but my success rate with finger of death, banishment, and phantasmal killer is pretty high without using heighten.
finger of death: level 7, so raising it to level eight will not do that much for you. Same with banishment. Now, with pk being a level 4 spell, you raised it by four caster levels when you heightened it. So that will make a big difference. The lower the spell level, the better heighten will effect it. So you can use charm person, and have a reasonable chance of success with it.
Would I see something much much closer to 100% success with hieghten turned on?
Again, it depends on what level spell you have. Personally, I use quite a few crowd control/charm spells, so having heighten works out very well for me. It gives my suggestion spell the same chance to land as my mass suggestion, and so on.

My thoughts in red...

[Affront]

Thank you for the input. It is very much appreciated. I'll try it on crowd control spells. I think I'll try a heightened web on those supersonic rats to see if that holds them better.

[Locathus]

Just remember that all Heighten does is improve the DC of your spell. It doesn't help damage, ability to get through a Mantle of Invulnerability, or Spell Resistance. That said, at appropriate times, it is an extremely useful feat.

[EspyLacopa]

Things do not auto-save on a 20. You can get to 100%

Yes. Yes they do. They also auto-fail on a 1.

What does not auto-save on a 20 is the Spell Resistance check. This is a roll you, the caster, make.

[MrCow]

Things do not auto-save on a 20. You can get to 100%

True for skills, not for saves. This is one thing that monsters and players do share in common (saving on a 20, that is).

[Hadrian]

Yes. Yes they do. They also auto-fail on a 1.

What does not auto-save on a 20 is the Spell Resistance check. This is a roll you, the caster, make.

Are you sure that this is the case? I know that things auto-fail on a 1, but I have seen Flesh to Stone last over an hour on something that was cursed and deleveled.

I have debuffed and stoned 5 or 6 of the giants in Threnal and gone AFK for a long time to come back and find them all still stoned. It's possible that they didn't roll a 20 in all that time, but not likely.

[MrWizard]

I took heighten at level 15. I had read some of the comments coming out of Risia about spell penetration being a much bigger thing in the new module and knew that monsters would likely have better DCs with their increased levels. I'm not using it. I'm not finding a reason to use it. When do people who use heighten use it?

Here is my scenario. I have 34 intelligence. I have a spell penetration VII item and all of the spell penetration enhancements (I beat spell resistance most of the time). I have the Stormreaver's napkin (smells like beer). I fail infrequently. I haven't kept track but my success rate with finger of death, banishment, and phantasmal killer is pretty high without using heighten. Would I see something much much closer to 100% success with hieghten turned on?

Heighten does not affect spell resistance.

Heighten will only make the spell you cast be treated as the highest level spell you can cast. So fod and banishment are about as high as you could cast anyway, so it should offer no more than +1 to the DC save of the spell.

Heighten will make those pesky spells you never use act as good as FOD.
Hypnotism - will stop high level mobs in tracks
charms will work well heightened

anything with a save is helped with much less failure than without it. The higher level the spell, the less the benefit and the less cost to use it.

If you can cast 8th level spells and heighten a 1st level spell, that gives the first level spell a +7 to it's DC roll.
If you cast a 6th level spell heightened to 8th, that is +2 to the DC roll.

Every plus helps, spends less mana, and I never ever ever ever not have heighten on.

[EspyLacopa]

Are you sure that this is the case? I know that things auto-fail on a 1, but I have seen Flesh to Stone last over an hour on something that was cursed and deleveled.

I have debuffed and stoned 5 or 6 of the giants in Threnal and gone AFK for a long time to come back and find them all still stoned. It's possible that they didn't roll a 20 in all that time, but not likely.

Considering that Flesh to Stone only does the save again every couple minutes. . .yea I can see that happening, especially with cursed and de-leveled enemies.

Good test would be to Curse a kobold or some such in the harbor, hit it with flesh to stone, and wait to see if it ever gets free. Could take a while.

[Hadrian]

The save is every 60 seconds, and I had 5 giants stoned for a long time. Being cursed and deleveled doesn't have any effect on the number of 20s they roll, it just makes sure that their saves are so low that only an auto-success will get them free.

Basically what I am saying is that I have tried the test you're describing, but on giants.

[Riorik]

Things do not auto-save on a 20. You can get to 100%

Odd, they used to in 1st & 2nd edition - pretty sure they still do in 3/3.5.


Oops, just realized 3 or 4 people had already jumped all over you about it.

Good luck

[Vienemen]

Just remember that all Heighten does is improve the DC of your spell. It doesn't help damage, ability to get through a Mantle of Invulnerability, or Spell Resistance. That said, at appropriate times, it is an extremely useful feat.

Although heighten should penetrate mantles of invulnerability if the caster is high enough level. I wont open that up again right now though.

Natural 20 should be auto save.

[EspyLacopa]

Although heighten should penetrate mantles of invulnerability if the caster is high enough level. I wont open that up again right now though.

Natural 20 should be auto save.

If Heighten could help spells penetrate stuff like that, then it should be useable on any spell, including self buffs and spells without a save. Self Buffs are because otherwise they can get canceled by Globe of Invulnerability.

[Vienemen]

If Heighten could help spells penetrate stuff like that, then it should be useable on any spell, including self buffs and spells without a save. Self Buffs are because otherwise they can get canceled by Globe of Invulnerability.

I think I am understanding what your saying and yes if you heightened a low lvl buff above 4th lvl it would not drop in the globe. By nature of the feat it becomes a higher lvl spell in all aspects. Something Turbine either decided they didnt want or its a mistake...havent heard either way yet.

[Hadrian]

Well I know that it used to be the case that a heightened firewall went through the protections of the Wizard King and the skeleton boss of Madstone Crater. Both of these cast a protection from spells level 4 and lower on themselves.

At some point this was changed so that heighten did not allow spells of lower level to penetrate such protections.