Rename Hard & Elite

[Pellegro]

Back before Mod 5 (and 4), these forums were full of posters complaining that the game was too easy, too boring, and not keeping their attention.

Mod 5 was the response, and I in fact recall a DEV post saying "if you think things are too easy don't worry we're upping the challenge on teh Mod 5 raid".

Of course, Mod 5 raid comes out and everyone screams its too hard. It may be - I've never run it.

Now, we're seeing all kinds of complaints that Elite is "too hard", that it alienates "casual" players (which is kind of the point of having an "elite" when you think about it), etc. etc.

Mod6 however went far towards making the game more "casual" frinedly by making normal much easier.

Anyway ... my suggestion is this: Rename Elite. Call it something that doesn't imply that its "better". Call it Twitch. Call it "Modified Rules". Call it anything.

Perhaps then we won't experience the onslaught of sour grapes that "zomg I can't run elite" or "elite is too hard" or "elite took 5 hours (?!?) to complete quest [x]".

[GwenJynx]

Rename elite to Elitist?

[bobbryan2]

Was that really worth posting a thread about? A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

[MysticTheurge]

Perhaps then we won't experience the onslaught of sour grapes that "zomg I can't run elite" or "elite is too hard" or "elite took 5 hours (?!?) to complete quest [x]".

Renaming isn't going to solve the problem unless you also remove the added rewards for elite.

Make everything use the same treasure tables, give the same favor and have the same experience bonuses and then you can have "elite" that's just "different" instead of being "better."

[BLITHELY]

Elite is too hard? Hmmmmm have not read any posts regarding this lately. Have seen some posts about trap DCs being outlandish on elite but too hard? Elite is difficult even for experienced players it requires more resources and dedication. Now the elitist crowd says its too easy to complete on elite; they want it to be harder. I say if its too easy for u; punish yourself more. Take away yr advantages quit using exploits or tricks to complete quests downgrade equipemnt get rid of yr enhancements; u know challenge yrself. Hard and elite r jus fine the way they are with the exception of stupid hard trap dcs. Thye dont need to change the system the majority is who the game is designed for not the elitist. Turbine sometimes forgets this but corrects it eventually.

[moorewr]

Renaming isn't going to solve the problem unless you also remove the added rewards for elite.

Make everything use the same treasure tables, give the same favor and have the same experience bonuses and then you can have "elite" that's just "different" instead of being "better."

Nooo! Devs, ignore this man!

[MysticTheurge]

Nooo! Devs, ignore this man!

I guess I should've been clearer. I don't think that's the right solution.

I think a harder (but still reasonable) elite with better rewards than normal is the right way to go.

My point was, as long as elite has better rewards you can never just have elite be "different" as opposed to "better."

[xanvar]

I'm a pretty casual player and I havn't had any problem with Elite content. Maybe when I get to playing the newer stuff at high levels I will see what the fuss is all about but where I'm sitting now I don't see any problems.

[Raithe]

I'm a pretty casual player and I havn't had any problem with Elite content.

Elite is really easy for everyone. It's just also frustrating for rogues and reflex save builds now.

And yes, things can be both easy and frustrating.

[Eregion2]

In my experience, the common perception seems to be that elite is "normal" and normal is "wimpy" and hard is "fun" (although, granted, I haven't run any serious high-end content yet since my highest character is a L10). This is kind of funny since I was just thinking how fun it would be if they added a fifth level that was actually obscenely challenging and you could actually brag about completing all in one piece. (is that racist against WF? I don't know how many pieces they consider themselves to be).

[redoubt]

The only consistant complaint about elite is the trap save DC.

We are mostly waiting to see or hear from the Devs. As many others have pointed out a needed to make a reflex save of 30 on a level 1 elite quest seems a bit wrong. Other than that, I don't think there are many complaints about elite.

Did I miss something?

[Vormaerin]

Yeah, its just the trap DCs... and the total disconnect between trap difficulty and the rest of the quest difficulty. I don't know about the new "lvl 16+ extra supersized elite" that they mention in the release notes. But the only issue with elite on other quests is that the trap DCs are way out of line with the rest of the quest. This isn't a problem if the trap can be disarmed without needing to pass through the trap, but many quests do expect the rogue to pass through the trap or practically stand in it.

The argument seems to be whether or not its valid to make the character's abilities completely irrelevant (ie trap DCs no balanced rogue can make at appropriate level) and expect the player's mouse control/twitch skills to do it instead. And, if it is valid, why are they only doing it on traps and not the rest of the content on elite mode? Why don't mobs auto hit unless you dodge/block?

Making the traps harder is good, especially the damage causing element; Making the rogue's skills irrelevant in favor of FPS style player skills is not. D&D is a character driven game, not an FPS.

[GlassCannon]

The only consistant complaint about elite is the trap save DC.

We are mostly waiting to see or hear from the Devs. As many others have pointed out a needed to make a reflex save of 30 on a level 1 elite quest seems a bit wrong. Other than that, I don't think there are many complaints about elite.

Did I miss something?

30???

In a Level 3 quest...???

That's not Elite.

That's Psychotic.

That's "Get out of my quest. Now. Once done, go uninstall your client and cry in the corner. If you come back we will Enervate your character to death, then send the CIA Interrogation Team to your house under orders to torture you to death for 3 months. If by the end of the 3 months you do not die, they are to finish the job."

[Vormaerin]

30???

In a Level 3 quest...???

That's not Elite.

That's Psychotic.

Well, 38 at lvl 9 and 46 at lvl 13 aren't a whole lot better, but they are at least possible if you really want to be a walking reflex save with subpar abilities elsewhere.

[GlassCannon]

Well, 38 at lvl 9 and 46 at lvl 13 aren't a whole lot better, but they are at least possible if you really want to be a walking reflex save with subpar abilities elsewhere.

Halfling Rogue Pure with ALL the feats/enhances for Reflex Save maybe...

But... that's a waste of a good rogue.

[MysticTheurge]

Halfling Rogue Pure with ALL the feats/enhances for Reflex Save maybe...

But... that's a waste of a good rogue.

I'm pretty sure you get better saves by going Pal 2/Rogue X.

Which again sort of defeats the purpose.

[Invalid_86]

Maybe they could, you know, have an 8th level quest on elite actually BE a 10th level quest. But that may be crazy talk.

[Vormaerin]

Overall saves, yes. But a pure rogue would get +9 to trap saves through trap sense and its enhancements (+5 with just trapsense). You'd need to be a pretty darn high charisma paladin to match that.

[MysticTheurge]

Overall saves, yes. But a pure rogue would get +9 to trap saves through trap sense and its enhancements (+5 with just trapsense). You'd need to be a pretty darn high charisma paladin to match that.

Yeah but by swapping two rogue levels for two paladin levels you give up, what, +2 trap sense/enhancements? If that.

It doesn't take much charisma to beat that.

[GwenJynx]

I play a rogue with 2 levels of paladin.
With a greater heroism and uncanny dodge I can get a +40 reflex save, but even that only gave me a 40% success rate on the spinning blade traps in the crucible on elite.

So not even a splash paladin rogue is reaching a 50/50 save rate. :/