Dwarven Stability

[Shade]

DnD:

Stability: A dwarf gains a +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground).

DDO:

+4 racial bonus on balance skill checks.

Reported this years ago and has always bothered me. As a maximum strength dwarf I should be very resiilant to being tripped, yet I have no real bonus to it as its currently coded.

Balance only effects getting back up - which isn't that important as the good ol ring of balance does the trick for getting up in 1 roll for 99% of the trips..

But getting knocked down in the first place, a +4 to my str roll would be great.

It's just a thing about dwarves that really should be fixed. I know it's a minor issue, I just wanted to bring it up again to make sure it hasn't been forgotten.

[Emili]

DnD:


DDO:

Reported this years ago and has always bothered me. As a maximum strength dwarf I should be very resiilant to being tripped, yet I have no real bonus to it as its currently coded.

Balance only effects getting back up - which isn't that important as the good ol ring of balance does the trick for getting up in 1 roll for 99% of the trips..

But getting knocked down in the first place, a +4 to my str roll would be great.

It's just a thing about dwarves that really should be fixed. I know it's a minor issue, I just wanted to bring it up again to make sure it hasn't been forgotten.

I agree, but as it stands also I feel they went overboard with the race with it's enhancements, while I know it's to mimic favored class it's inconsistant to give a race near half of one class' enhancements... by that logic a human who's favored class is any should get half the deck Anyway I see it as a very very minor problem since the race is overly benefited vis it's enhancements outside of DnD rules. It's like asking why you're Cadillac no longer comes in racing green while they added climate control and every other option available under the sun. Point being why put more on a race they already overpowered in other aspects?

[Shade]

All I hear lately is that humans are just as good as dwarves if not better with the extra feat and HV or whatever, but thats really not the point.

It's a bug, Bugs should not be fixed or not fixed based on the merits of enhancement design or anything else for that matter.

[Emili]

All I hear lately is that humans are just as good as dwarves if not better with the extra feat and HV or whatever, but thats really not the point.

It's a bug, Bugs should not be fixed or not fixed based on the merits of enhancement design or anything else for that matter.

I said I agree but found it to be minor since it's such a very minor problem and on a race which is just such an easy build tool... making it more attractive? They should add it into the DC of being knocked down but it's not like it's that large of a problem, jump out of the way when the mino charges and watch out for being hit by trip like everyone else does.

[BlueLightBandit]

I always found it enjoyable to get triple raged on my barbarian (with a 42 strength) and then fail strength checks in the marilith room in PoP.

Mob trip/overrun is borked. If only it worked at the same rate player trip worked then it'd be reasonable. As it is cr6 worgs in Tangleroot have improved trip and there's no real effective save for a lvl 16 character.

[Shade]

Im often at 46-50 str and I find that saves a decent amount of times vs most trips. Add in the proper dwarven stability and I will be near-imune as I should be.

And ill say it again: Things that clearly should be implemented like this should never be put into consideration of overall enahncement balance, racial balance or any other game mechanic.

When they fixed evasion it certianly nerfed a ton of builds, but so what, they made the game better and more true to PnP so it was worth it, thats how these things should always be considered.

Your comparison is just plain wrong too. A more accurate one would be: You purchase the top of the line cadillac and read on the website for it that it has dual climate control - a cool but not very important feature... You get the car and are very impressed with it, but it infact does not thave the dual climate control.. When you go to the dealer to ask why, they tell you: Well what are you complaining about? You got a freakin Cadillac, there way better then all the other GM brands so *(!@#) off we aint adding that.

[Turial]

The dwarf bonus to avoiding bull rush and tripped should be properly applied to resisting the initial trip rather then simply standing back up again.

[BlueLightBandit]

they made the game better and more true to PnP

*sigh* this is NOT D&D, this is DDO. And if I pay good money for a Cadillac and it doesn't have dual climate control, then I'm one highly upset customer. I can't speak for anybody else, but I do my homework when investing in a product, down to the size of the spare tire. If I am misled in any of the provided information there's a good chance I'm returning the product on principle alone, because if they lied about something simple like climate control then there's a good chance they lied about other things too.

The dwarf bonus to avoiding bull rush and tripped should be properly applied to resisting the initial trip rather then simply standing back up again.

Very VERY true. That is what BALANCE should be, the ability to resist falling down. Getting back up is a str/dex/weight carried issue, and has nothing to do with the word balance.

[Turial]

*sigh* this is NOT D&D, this is DDO. And if I pay good money for a Cadillac and it doesn't have dual climate control, then I'm one highly upset customer. I can't speak for anybody else, but I do my homework when investing in a product, down to the size of the spare tire. If I am misled in any of the provided information there's a good chance I'm returning the product on principle alone, because if they lied about something simple like climate control then there's a good chance they lied about other things too.


Very VERY true. That is what BALANCE should be, the ability to resist falling down. Getting back up is a str/dex/weight carried issue, and has nothing to do with the word balance.

See thats the tricky thing... The SRD entry for tripping says you make your trip attack against an opposed check based on STR or DEX which ever is higher. Personally I am fine with that as a decent number of people have scores that would let them make a save most of the time. The real problem comes down to mobs that can trip all the time such as air elementals and the poor wording on descriptions in game. If I remember correctly air elementals:
Whirlwind (Su)

The elemental can transform itself into a whirlwind once every 10 minutes and remain in that form for up to 1 round for every 2 HD it has. In this form, the elemental can move through the air or along a surface at its fly speed.
The whirlwind is 5 feet wide at the base, up to 30 feet wide at the top, and up to 50 feet tall, depending on the elemental’s size. The elemental controls the exact height, but it must be at least 10 feet.
The elemental’s movement while in whirlwind form does not provoke attacks of opportunity, even if the elemental enters the space another creature occupies. Another creature might be caught in the whirlwind if it touches or enters the whirlwind, or if the elemental moves into or through the creature’s space.
Creatures one or more size categories smaller than the elemental might take damage when caught in the whirlwind (see table for details) and may be lifted into the air. An affected creature must succeed on a Reflex save when it comes into contact with the whirlwind or take the indicated damage. It must also succeed on a second Reflex save or be picked up bodily and held suspended in the powerful winds, automatically taking the indicated damage each round. A creature that can fly is allowed a Reflex save each round to escape the whirlwind. The creature still takes damage but can leave if the save is successful. The DC for saves against the whirlwind’s effects varies with the elemental’s size (see the table). The save DC is Strength based.


Air Elemental Sizes Elemental Height Weight Whirlwind Save DC Damage Height Small 4 ft. 1 lb. 11 1d4 10-20 ft. Medium 8 ft. 2 lb. 13 1d6 10-30 ft. Large 16 ft. 4 lb. 16 2d6 10-40 ft. Huge 32 ft. 8 lb. 22 2d8 10-50 ft. Greater 36 ft. 10 lb. 25 2d8 10-60 ft. Elder 40 ft. 12 lb. 28 2d8 10-60 ft.

Some how I dont think the air elemental is done right. Should be more like the guardians in wiz king that turn into whirlwinds.

[Impaqt]

Why dont you just jump out of the way when they try to Trip you?

[Mad_Bombardier]

Why dont you just jump out of the way when they try to Trip you?

Then you just get tripped 10' up in the air and 20' away. Queued attacks and automatic hit detection, FTL.

[Impaqt]

Then you just get tripped 10' up in the air and 20' away. Queued attacks and automatic hit detection, FTL.

I know..... I just find it entertainig that when Shade sees a Bug he cant Twitch his way around, its a Issue, But as long as theres a way around the problems, other people need to get better.

[Lifespawn]

Im often at 46-50 str and I find that saves a decent amount of times vs most trips. Add in the proper dwarven stability and I will be near-imune as I should be.

And ill say it again: Things that clearly should be implemented like this should never be put into consideration of overall enahncement balance, racial balance or any other game mechanic.

When they fixed evasion it certianly nerfed a ton of builds, but so what, they made the game better and more true to PnP so it was worth it, thats how these things should always be considered.

Your comparison is just plain wrong too. A more accurate one would be: You purchase the top of the line cadillac and read on the website for it that it has dual climate control - a cool but not very important feature... You get the car and are very impressed with it, but it infact does not thave the dual climate control.. When you go to the dealer to ask why, they tell you: Well what are you complaining about? You got a freakin Cadillac, there way better then all the other GM brands so *(!@#) off we aint adding that.

contradicting yourself here saying this needs to be fixed to make it true to pnp and make the game better but enhancments are what make this not pnp.

I bet you'd flip out if they changed some of the enhancments on dwarves because they were overpowered but yet you want more things to make them even more powerful.

Dwarves are way overpowered alrdy take out something they get first before giving them something else to make them uber.

[Lifespawn]

Im often at 46-50 str and I find that saves a decent amount of times vs most trips. Add in the proper dwarven stability and I will be near-imune as I should be.

And ill say it again: Things that clearly should be implemented like this should never be put into consideration of overall enahncement balance, racial balance or any other game mechanic.

When they fixed evasion it certianly nerfed a ton of builds, but so what, they made the game better and more true to PnP so it was worth it, thats how these things should always be considered.

Your comparison is just plain wrong too. A more accurate one would be: You purchase the top of the line cadillac and read on the website for it that it has dual climate control - a cool but not very important feature... You get the car and are very impressed with it, but it infact does not thave the dual climate control.. When you go to the dealer to ask why, they tell you: Well what are you complaining about? You got a freakin Cadillac, there way better then all the other GM brands so *(!@#) off we aint adding that.

This comparison is also wrong in yours you are Paying for something a more accurate would be You were given the car and it had a ton of stuff on it that no other model could have added on it and then complained about it lacking the climate control.

[Attomic]

Nah. Dwarves are the master race. We should be immune to EVERYTHING in accordance with that fact.

That being said, I think you guys are using the wrong metaphor. Being a dwarf without the PnP stability is like getting a Hummer that doesn't have four-wheel drive - it looks nice and is fancy and such, but it just ain't the same.

[Emili]

Nah. Dwarves are the master race. We should be immune to EVERYTHING in accordance with that fact.

That being said, I think you guys are using the wrong metaphor. Being a dwarf without the PnP stability is like getting a Hummer that doesn't have four-wheel drive - it looks nice and is fancy and such, but it just ain't the same.

LOL, really... personally i'd no problem with them adding every DnD racial trait down to the letter if they just clearly tossed away all the racial enhancements... that is my point. I see no reason to toss in the DnD racial traits to a T because they more than make up for it in other racial benefits - way beyond the DnD racial traits - in the enhancement system.

ie.) if they gave the dwarves exactly this:
Dwarves
Also see the Dwarf monster listing.

+2 Constitution, -2 Charisma.
Medium: As Medium creatures, dwarves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Dwarf base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load (unlike other creatures, whose speed is reduced in such situations).
Darkvision: Dwarves can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and dwarves can function just fine with no light at all.
Stonecunning: This ability grants a dwarf a +2 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework, such as sliding walls, stonework traps, new construction (even when built to match the old), unsafe stone surfaces, shaky stone ceilings, and the like. Something that isn’t stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. A dwarf who merely comes within 10 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as if he were actively searching, and a dwarf can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can. A dwarf can also intuit depth, sensing his approximate depth underground as naturally as a human can sense which way is up.
Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves may treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons.
Stability: A dwarf gains a +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground).
+2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison.
+2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects.
+1 racial bonus on attack rolls against orcs and goblinoids.
+4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type. Any time a creature loses its Dexterity bonus (if any) to Armor Class, such as when it’s caught flat-footed, it loses its dodge bonus, too.
+2 racial bonus on Appraise checks that are related to stone or metal items.
+2 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to stone or metal.
Automatic Languages: Common and Dwarven. Bonus Languages: Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Terran, and Undercommon.
Favored Class: Fighter. A multiclass dwarf’s fighter class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing

And every other race exactly thier due in light... then tossed out the racial enhancements then I can see this being DnD like but to state I want my Trip modifier on top of what they gave you beyond your racial dues seems to me a tad like saying - hey make me more better than you have, cause all the extra perks you gave me (but should not have) are just not enough.

[Lifespawn]

more like getting a hummer vs a ford focus it may not have 4 wheel drive but it's way better than any economy car.

[Attomic]

LOL, really... personally i'd no problem with them adding every DnD racial trait down to the letter if they just clearly tossed away all the racial enhancements... that is my point. I see no reason to toss in the DnD racial traits to a T because they more than make up for it in other racial benefits - way beyond the DnD racial traits - in the enhancement system.

I could get behind that at least to some extent; there are certainly adjustments to be made in accommodation of the fact that this is an MMO, of course, but it would certainly be nice if more PnP stuff were implemented.

[Emili]

How do you know in my two years of play I never had a dwarf?... I most certainly have played them. I just view a character in it's full potential and application. Ok, I concede give dwarves +4 to thier trip checks for near immunity to trip because they want it... they been cheated long enough and are entitled to it, thus challenge of being tripped goes out the window for near all dwarven characters... while were at it maybe we can up the mob trip potential to give these dwarves a hair more of challenge, and let those who did not make a dwarf character always fall on thier bum, so they have more reason to make a dwarf. I for the luv of me am not being condescending here, I am just wondering why you're carrying on about this save while you seem to be fine with others? Am just trying to be reasonable here in the context of balance. You've stated nevermind trap ave DC in one thread - you'll by-pass it anyway, then come here stating you want a better DC vs trip becuase a dwarf is entitled? I've had dwarves... have you any other races who purely melee? Yet again am just trying to understand where you're coming from.

[Impaqt]

No, I see poeple giving you the same courtesy you give others who complain about things that you dont think are important......

Its perfectly acceptable to use twitch and avoidance to bypass the rediculously high trap DC's, but because you get knocked down while fighing a wolf, things need to be changed.... Its a 2-way street here shade....

We could simply say, Your save is Fine, Just let the casters deal with the mobs that can knock you down from a distance.... That way you can stay on your feet and the bug doesnt effect you anymore.

Avoide the issue and all is just fine with the game.....