Making Rogue Sneak Attack Toggleable

[Sydril]

The title says it all.

Rangers got it for improved precise shot.

Rogues should have it for sneak attack.

When you are trying to banish or vorpal or just not draw aggro and do so much damage you should have the option of not sneak attacking. I really enjoy the new content a lot, but running the spider quest last night I could barely attack anything for fear of killing them so I just sat around while the sorcerers fingered everything. Meanwhile in the eladrin stronghold I died 4 times because no one else in the party could do anywhere near as much damage as me to the whirling displaced elves. I would have much preferred to just concentrate on vorpaling or debuffing but all I got was aggro and beatdown from light ray spam.

From what I can tell rangers got the toggle because they were drawing too much aggro and could not control their tactics. Why do rogues continue to get so little dev love? Having tactical variety is something that I think should be encouraged, especially in such an oft maligned class like the rogue.

[Olaff]

Invest in Bluff.

Invest in Diplomacy.

Wait for tanks to draw aggro.

The difference between IPS and Sneak Attack is that (a) IPS is not a class-defining feature for Rangers, but Sneak Attack is for rogues; (b) IPS amounts to an area-effect attack, while Sneak Attack only works on one critter at a time; and (c) IPS is an "upgrade" to Precise Shot which only affects one target at a time, with no fear of hitting anything in front of that target. If IPS were not toggleable, Precise Shot would never work, because you would always hit everything between you and the target you want to hit, instead of just your intended target.

[oronisi]

Invest in Bluff.

You mean diplomacy. And I'd say if you really just want to debuff things, roll a dex ranger. Splash 1 level of rogue and now you have a non-sneak attacking rogue that can cast barkskin and gets your 2 weapon fighting feats for free.

[Olaff]

You mean diplomacy. And I'd say if you really just want to debuff things, roll a dex ranger. Splash 1 level of rogue and now you have a non-sneak attacking rogue that can cast barkskin and gets your 2 weapon fighting feats for free.

No, I mean Bluff. Having a high bluff improves your chances to land additional Sneak Attacks against a creature whose attention you've already drawn. Diplomacy is good too, though, since it helps shift the targets attention elsewhere.

EDIT: Bluff is a toggleable skill, though, so you have to remember to use it on critters for it to work.

[aurus33]

Invest in Bluff.

Invest in Diplomacy.

Wait for tanks to draw aggro.

The difference between IPS and Sneak Attack is that (a) IPS is not a class-defining feature for Rangers, but Sneak Attack is for rogues; (b) IPS amounts to an area-effect attack, while Sneak Attack only works on one critter at a time; and (c) IPS is an "upgrade" to Precise Shot which only affects one target at a time, with no fear of hitting anything in front of that target. If IPS were not toggleable, Precise Shot would never work, because you would always hit everything between you and the target you want to hit, instead of just your intended target.

While I agree with what you said I gotta support the OP, but sneak attack is an attack to vital/weak points, you can as well decide not to.

I used to have a pure rogue back when level cap was 14, with only the of extra dices of sneak attacks were enough to get the aggro back even with subtle backstabber, heck... even with diplomacy, the cooldown time is muuch longer than a couple swings and, like before I ended up having aggro again.

It would be nice for Sneak attack to be an on/off.

[In_Like_Flynn]

Invest in Bluff. Invest in Diplomacy. Wait for tanks to draw aggro.

I agree. Use strategy.

[ViVid7th]

Usage of the feat Precision halves base weapon damage, bonuses from Str and Sneak attack. If you are building a Rogue with debuffing in mind, it is a great feat that lowers your Damage Curve allowing you to stay closer to your over curve. It will also cause you to hit more, so debuff more. If you are using proc on crit effects, naturally you should be using his crit range weapons anyways so it will help there as well (Anything below a 20 isn't an autohit even if it is in the weapon's crit range.)

[Sydril]

I have max ranks in bluff. its useless. if you actually think that using bluff in combat is useful you have no idea what is going on in high level content. 1 sneak attack is nothing in damage. you need deception or sirocco to land killing damage. Diplomacy is not bad, but I don't use it.

Ask yourself this: Why did they make improved precise shot toggleable?

For those of you that actually play D&D theres something called subdual damage. A rogue should be able to choose whether he is actively seeking sneak attack damage or not.

its simple tactics.

[MysticTheurge]

Invest in Bluff.

Invest in Diplomacy.

Wait for tanks to draw aggro.

I agree. Use strategy.

I'm not sure what these responses have to do with the OP.

Like IPS, a rogue should be able to decide whether he wants to deal extra damage via sneak attack or not. That's all there really is to it.

[Olaff]

I have max ranks in bluff. its useless. if you actually think that using bluff in combat is useful you have no idea what is going on in high level content. 1 sneak attack is nothing in damage. you need deception or sirocco to land killing damage. Diplomacy is not bad, but I don't use it.

Actually you're right, I have no idea how Bluff plays out in high-end gameplay. I know what's it's *supposed* to do - I realize full well that the two are not necessarily the same. I do know, though, that when using Bluffing weapons you get extra sneak attacks.

Ask yourself this: Why did they make improved precise shot toggleable?

Already answered this.

For those of you that actually play D&D theres something called subdual damage. A rogue should be able to choose whether he is actively seeking sneak attack damage or not.

its simple tactics.

Subdual damage would be great to see in-game. Problem is, it'd need to be a toggle itself, and it shouldn't be rogue-only, because if memory serves anyone could choose to do subdual damage instead of normal damage.

As noted above, try the Precision feat.

Why is that all there is to it, MT?

[DareDelvis]

The argument for "tactics" aside, it seems logical that if sneak attack damage is from a rogue "striking a vital spot" for extra damage ( http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm ), then a rogue should be able to miss that vital spot intentionally.

Unless, all rogues are completely primitive and lack a frontal cortex "I just can't help myself. I see an open kidney shot, and I just have to go for it "

[Freeman]

The argument for "tactics" aside, it seems logical that if sneak attack damage is from a rogue "striking a vital spot" for extra damage ( http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm ), then a rogue should be able to miss that vital spot intentionally.

Unless, all rogues are completely primitive and lack a frontal cortex "I just can't help myself. I see an open kidney shot, and I just have to go for it "

But, you didn't really need that kidney, did you? I know a guy that will give you a really good price for one of those

Seriously though, I wouldn't have any problem with having sneak attack be on a toggle. It would be convenient for when those pesky sorcs can't keep aggro off of me with their weak little firewalls

[jjflanigan]

The argument for "tactics" aside, it seems logical that if sneak attack damage is from a rogue "striking a vital spot" for extra damage ( http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm ), then a rogue should be able to miss that vital spot intentionally.

Unless, all rogues are completely primitive and lack a frontal cortex "I just can't help myself. I see an open kidney shot, and I just have to go for it "

A lot of the rogues I play with don't have any self-control, so that seems like a perfectly reasonable thought...

Agreed that it should be a toggle, though. If you don't want to do the sneak attack, you should be able to just attack normally.

[QuantumFX]

Ask yourself this: Why did they make improved precise shot toggleable?

Because Rangers were given 2 feats and only got the benefits of one of them. This isn't just for rangers either, it applies to anyone who's taken the Precise Shot/Improved Precise Shot feat chain.

[Turial]

The argument for "tactics" aside, it seems logical that if sneak attack damage is from a rogue "striking a vital spot" for extra damage ( http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm ), then a rogue should be able to miss that vital spot intentionally.

Unless, all rogues are completely primitive and lack a frontal cortex "I just can't help myself. I see an open kidney shot, and I just have to go for it "

Kinda sounds like Belkar from OoTS. But I would be all for a toggle to do sneak attacks if you are a rogue or skip them if you choose. In pnp one generally never encounters a time where you want to turn off sneak attacks because an "intelligent" DM is controling creatures rather then a scripted "intelligence" that works off of a threat/hate meter.

[oronisi]

A lot of the rogues I play with don't have any self-control, so that seems like a perfectly reasonable thought...

Agreed that it should be a toggle, though. If you don't want to do the sneak attack, you should be able to just attack normally.

But what about someone like me that never wants to worry about a toggle because I want it always on? Do I need to pull yet another icon on my toolbar and make sure it's enabled every time I play?

[Sydril]

But what about someone like me that never wants to worry about a toggle because I want it always on? Do I need to pull yet another icon on my toolbar and make sure it's enabled every time I play?

Um. Default on.

the toggle would be to disable it.

[Laith]

But what about someone like me that never wants to worry about a toggle because I want it always on? Do I need to pull yet another icon on my toolbar and make sure it's enabled every time I play?

seriously? is this really a reason to shoot down a good idea that would give your rogue a completely new tactical option?

toggles don't toggle themselves on death/logout anymore. once it's on, it'll always be on: just like IPS. It wouldn't need to be on your hotbar if you didn't want to reserve space for it: just like IPS.

[In_Like_Flynn]

Dear DDO Developers: Please don't let players "should-be-able-to" this game to death.

[Sydril]

Dear DDO Developers: Please don't let players "should-be-able-to" this game to death.

What? Thats like saying:

Dear DDO Developers: Please don't let players offer ideas for improving gameplay. Why is there even a forum entitled "DDO Development Discussion"

Think about what you're saying. Would you say that about an idea you thought was good?