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  1. #1
    Founder Vodac's Avatar
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    Default My thoughts on how to fix the economy

    1: Mod6 from what I’ve experienced at least at level 10.

    You can’t make money unless you do loot runs not questing and dungeon exploring but loot runs. Item damage seems a tad high “Does fighter % to avoiding damage work still?”

    2: AUCTION:
    Prices are over inflated ways to fix it.

    Set a max % an item can be soled for:
    Base the % on the items price and level of the item.

    Remove auction fees and timer: (Previously used to control price)
    An item will sell to the first bidder that hits the items max % or sell to the highest if Max % is not met and timer runs out “when the item is put on auction and no bid is made it will be soled to the auction house at the starting bid after a set amount of time has passed money will be mailed to the seller.

    Starting bid:
    Will be set by the base value of the item + haggle modifier. The same way you do it now for selling items to the vendor.

    3: Vendor Tables:
    Some nights there is absolute nothing on them set a maximum number of inventory if the number is maxed items fall off oldest first if not they stay until soled or maxim innovatory is met

    4: Bound items:
    The new crafting system is nice but because every thing you make has to be bound there is no way to trade: set up a system for those times to be unbound when soled to auction or vendors and rebind on use of new buyer.
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  2. #2
    Community Member Zenako's Avatar
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    Replies..

    1) Not making money? Not my experience here at all. I was making some decent coin while running my level 9 fighter over the weekend in level appropriate quests. Even when solo.

    2) Auction House fixes: The auction house works fine right now and serves the purpose it was meant to do. Enable the blind trading of cash for items without having to spend ungodly amounts of time on a forum trading thread. The market sets the prices and over time those change. What was once highly coveted, is now hardly sought at all due to new items in the game. Any attempt to constrain the market in the AH will just drive those items back to the offline trading/selling system and remove the opportunity of many many players to ever see something like those items up for auction.

    3) Vendor Inventory resetting: Agree on the problem, lots of previous threads on possible fixes thou. Vendors are part of an instance, when no one is in the instance for 5 minutes the instance resets. IF that time interval was made longer, then we might have a problem of items never going away, so some sort of timer on them would be needed. That would involve a bunch of new coding to implement.

    4) Item Binding from Crafting: Unless I am mistaken, it looked like some of those things only bind once equiped, not just picked up and put into inventory.
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  3. #3
    Community Member cm2_supernova's Avatar
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    No offence, but I personally dont think the auction fix is a very good idea. The reason that the prices in the auction are inflated is because of the large amounts of money (plat) in the game right now. If you really want to stop the inflation, then plat has to be removed from the game...ie, high repair bills and auction fees.

    The problem is there is no way to take enough plat out of the pockets of the power gamer to make a difference with out absolutly crippleing the average gamer. That being said, I dont think that is an issue that can be fixed...

  4. #4

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    I'll start with my credentials: I have a Bachelors degree in economics from the University of Washington
    Not that it makes me an expert but I'll be damned if I can't use it for something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vodac View Post
    1: Mod6 from what I’ve experienced at least at level 10.
    You can’t make money unless you do loot runs not questing and dungeon exploring but loot runs. Item damage seems a tad high “Does fighter % to avoiding damage work still?”.
    Personaly I don't die all that often so it isn't much of a factor. My guild recently started a "no twinking" group and we all made enough money throug selling to brokers to buy basig gear off said same brokers (we don't use AH but that only makes things easier).

    Quote Originally Posted by Vodac View Post
    2: AUCTION:
    Prices are over inflated ways to fix it.
    I'm curiouse how you determined they were over inflated. Personaly I find that the prices on the AH are almost always better than the prices for similar items on the brokers. You can get ver decent gear very cheaply on the AH. I used to make money buying items for less than thier broker sale price and then brokering them. Premium items are fairly expensive but the prices for any given item are generaly in decline. +1 tomes used to often be listed for 2-5 million gold and now I often see them for 500 thousand. The same goes for many items. Used to be you couldn't get a +5 Elemental weapon for love or money and now they are pretty much vendor trash and sell very cheaply.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vodac View Post
    Set a max % an item can be soled for:
    Base the % on the items price and level of the item. .
    All that would do is limit what items are found on the AH. Anything deemed more valuable than that % simply would be sold player to player as are the items deemed more valuable than the current AH cap.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vodac View Post
    Remove auction fees and timer: (Previously used to control price)
    An item will sell to the first bidder that hits the items max % or sell to the highest if Max % is not met and timer runs out “when the item is put on auction and no bid is made it will be soled to the auction house at the starting bid after a set amount of time has passed money will be mailed to the seller.
    Auction fees are a fairly essential money sink in the economy. If you take them away you only encourage gold inflation and higher prices. Your no-timer system would only discourage people from selling to the AH. If people don't want something to sell below X price they won't be happy to see it sold to the AH. People would simply put junk up for the max % and then wait for the AH to buy it from them at a generaly rediculous price unless the % is super low in which case no one would bother with the AH. Price controls like this simply don't work in a market.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vodac View Post
    Starting bid:
    Will be set by the base value of the item + haggle modifier. The same way you do it now for selling items to the vendor.
    A +5 Acid Longsword of Pure Good is much better than a +2 Holy long sword of greater ooze bane but they have the same base price. The brokers treat all items equaly, the AH is priced on what people want to buy things for, so you have to allow pricing to be determined by people or it simply won't work. It creates something called "externalities". These are distortions in behavior based on listed value vs actual value.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vodac View Post
    3: Vendor Tables:
    Some nights there is absolute nothing on them set a maximum number of inventory if the number is maxed items fall off oldest first if not they stay until soled or maxim innovatory is met.
    The problem is that if the area the vendors are in "un instances" then all the stuff goes away. Its that way for performance reasons aparently and has been like that since day 1. It would be nice if it didn't happen and we see it a lot less now than we used to due to the increased server population density.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vodac View Post
    4: Bound items:
    The new crafting system is nice but because every thing you make has to be bound there is no way to trade: set up a system for those times to be unbound when soled to auction or vendors and rebind on use of new buyer.
    Letting them unbind would entirely defeat the purpose of binding them... which is that you can't trade them to other players and must go get them yourself.
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  5. #5
    Community Member DasLurch's Avatar
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    If only it were this easy for president BoBo to fix the real one....
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vodac View Post
    You can’t make money unless you do loot runs not questing and dungeon exploring but loot runs. Item damage seems a tad high “Does fighter % to avoiding damage work still?”
    That's really false.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vodac View Post
    2: AUCTION:
    Prices are over inflated ways to fix it.
    False, and also not a problem. Good items are expensive, like they should be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vodac View Post
    Set a max % an item can be soled for:
    Base the % on the items price and level of the item.
    What a horrible thing to suggest. You are asking for good items to be REMOVED from the auction house entirely. Nobody would post their things if they can't get a price close to what another player is willing to pay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vodac View Post
    3: Vendor Tables:
    Some nights there is absolute nothing on them set a maximum number of inventory if the number is maxed items fall off oldest first if not they stay until soled or maxim innovatory is met
    I assume you meant Brokers, not Vendors. But Brokers are 100% irrelevant to the economy, except that they pay higher prices for a +5 Seeker Great Crossbow of Construct-bane than you could get in a tavern.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vodac View Post
    4: Bound items:
    The new crafting system is nice but because every thing you make has to be bound there is no way to trade: set up a system for those times to be unbound when soled to auction or vendors and rebind on use of new buyer.
    Once again, this is a non-problem. Increasing the number of bound items only helps the economy.

  7. #7
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    It is always hard to talk about the economy after a new mod comes out.

    First, changes like this were not a "rallying point" on thr forums before the mod.

    Second, with the Mod out, new items and higher level items will make previously "expensive" items very affordable. I remember how expensive paralyzers, smiters and banishers were - if you could find them on the AH. Now you can find them frequently for fairly affordable pricing. That will be even more true with the new levels and the new crafting system.

    Third, I think the repair costs have proven (and will continue to prove to be) a money sink. It is needed and it is not so onerous to gimp play IMO. This is secondary to the intent of the new death xp - try to avoid dying.
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  8. #8
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    I wasn't aware the economy was broken? The addition of crafting made me nervous since one of the reasons I got into DDO was the fact that it was an entirely loot-based economy in comparison with player-made items, but so far I think it'll work out alright.
    Last edited by Eregion2; 02-04-2008 at 03:45 PM.

  9. #9
    Founder Vodac's Avatar
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    I’d agree with you 100&#37; if DDO was a free Market but its not There’s no real competition for the people that plat farm driving up the prices on the auction and the people that play every day or on occasion just for fun. So the devs try to put economic controls in to limit the amount of money we can make but all it does is hurt the average player… I can make money if I do loot runs all day but I don’t really want to spend my time doing that I want to play the game and during the normal cores of the session be able to play next time I log on “by play the game I mean do new dungeons” Having to run the same quest over and over just to make enough money to play seems broken to me but maybe its just me. I only run quest over and over if theirs a random item I am looking for.
    Besides you cant breaking up all the things I want to do as if they work alone and they don’t they work all together to do 3 things.

    Reduce the need to loot farm
    Reduce the real world profitability of selling DDO plat and items
    Bring the items some people would never be able to get in to the realm of possible.

    Please remember I am speaking from the prospective of a level 10 fighter my higher level friends all say they can make enough to cover there losses from the higher level content and loot. At this point I can not or not with out doing loot runs.

    All so I am not referring to the new death damage I am just referring to normal damage it is definitely more now that before the patch.
    Last edited by Vodac; 02-04-2008 at 04:12 PM.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vodac
    Reduce the need to loot farm
    Reduce the real world profitability of selling DDO plat and items
    Bring the items some people would never be able to get in to the realm of possible.
    That's what I'm getting at though; I just started playing in December and my cleric is a L10. I've never done loot runs or bought plat, but I'm not having any trouble keeping my character equipped (although wands do make me cringe; I'll have to restock soon and I'm not looking forward to it even though it won't put me in a hole).

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vodac View Post
    I’d agree with you 100% if DDO was a free Market but its not.
    Well, it's farily free. It has different ground rules than the real world and technicaly we don't own the items or money but we can effectively trade items how we see fit between characters. The brokers are not market driven and as a result they pretty much act as the way to transform natural resources (treasure) into cash. none the less individual actors have a great deal of economic autonomy and that is the large measure of a free market.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vodac View Post
    There’s no real competition for the people that plat farm driving up the prices on the auction and the people that play every day or on occasion just for fun..
    There is only one real job in DDO land. Collecting treasure. If you send a lot of time collecting treasure you have a higher income than someone who does not. You can be more or less efficient wtih your play time but in the end its how much time and effort you put in equating more or less what you get out of it. "real life" is an opportunity cost some people are willing to pay in order to achieve DDO riches. That is the way MMO games work. There is no egalitarian value placed on not playing, only on a slavish devotion to grinding your ass off and the occasional lucky break. Treasure is an inexaustable resource so no one has any kind of monopoly and thus there is nothing but "real competition". Everyone has the same opportunities in DDO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vodac View Post
    So the devs try to put economic controls in to limit the amount of money we can make but all it does is hurt the average player… I can make money if I do loot runs all day but I don’t really want to spend my time doing that I want to play the game and during the normal cores of the session be able to play next time I log on “by play the game I mean do new dungeons” Having to run the same quest over and over just to make enough money to play seems broken to me but maybe its just me. I only run quest over and over if theirs a random item I am looking for.
    Welcome to MMOs, where you must reward people for playing a lot in order to make them feel invested and doll out mothly fees and where a natural sense of competition is exploited for financial gain. Just because you can't run a quest 90 times does not mean the guy that does should never have anything to look forward to. Your gear is proportional to the work you put into it. Just paying your $15 a month does not entitle you to every item the game has to offer. If you want to play casual you must resign yoruself to having casual gear. That is what I do and I enjoy the game just fine.

    I don't grind quests more than once in a given week if that. I've only once ever ransacked any chest in the game. I doubt I've done any non starter quest more than 10 times. My gear is not the most amazing stuff ever but I seem to be able to play and enjoy the game just fine despite not having the gear the hard core folks have.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vodac View Post
    Reduce the need to loot farm
    Reduce the real world profitability of selling DDO plat and items
    Bring the items some people would never be able to get in to the realm of possible.
    The thing is.. your goals are bad for the game. To make money turbine has to keep both new and old players happy to some extent. If folks run out of goals they stop playing which is bad for turbine (and for folks who want party members). You have to have a kind of horizon of character power. The very best of the best gear and achievement must be extreemly difficult to obtain and in DDO the random treasure ensures that there is always the possibility of slightly better treasure just over the horizon. So you can keep on questing for the good stuff.

    But you don't need that stuff to play. The other night me and 3 other guildies ground through one of the new quests wtih 4 characters, none of them level 16 (three 15s and a 13). We started with about 1/3 mana and none of us were geared up with anything especialy amazing. Did we die some? Ya we did. We had one wipe but otherwise dragged our buts through a quest that we really were under powered for. If we were the actual level for the quest and had a full party it would have been pretty easy. On all my characters I've got a single +2 tome and it was a favor tome. I don't have uber gear by any streatch of the imagination. Most of it was bought off the AH at bargin prices.

    The elite treasure is for elite players, thats teh way it is supposed to work. It gives them something to strive for. If you got the same gear for less work it would make their play meaningless.

    Not to mention that your proposals would not achieve your aims. The people that work hard for thier items would simply buy, sell and trade them directly with one another and you would never even see the stuff you hope to get.

    It wouldn't effect plat sellers or spammers in the least. In fact it would aid them in many ways by increasing the value of items in game as they would be much more rare on the open market adn gold prices would be evern more inflated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vodac View Post
    Please remember I am speaking from the prospective of a level 10 fighter my higher level friends all say they can make enough to cover there losses from the higher level content and loot. At this point I can not or not with out doing loot runs..
    All I can tell you is that you are probably running quests that are harder than you should be running if you die constantly. When 10 was the cap tomes and such were extreem rarities. I was using a +1 Adamanting Shocking longsword of Pure good (a level 6 item) as my primary weapon untill level 12 because its the best thing I'd looted. Just be patient, play the game, pay your dues and eventualy you too will loot some of the kind of stuff you used to think was beyond your means. You will forever be a few steps behind the hard core but that is the way it is supposed to be.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vodac View Post
    I’d agree with you 100% if DDO was a free Market but its not
    That's true, and a free market inside a game is usually a bad thing. Some few games can work with a free market, if that was the design goal from the start. But that wasn't the case in DDO.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigtrent View Post
    All I can tell you is that you are probably running quests that are harder than you should be running if you die constantly. When 10 was the cap tomes and such were extreem rarities. I was using a +1 Adamanting Shocking longsword of Pure good (a level 6 item) as my primary weapon untill level 12 because its the best thing I'd looted. Just be patient, play the game, pay your dues and eventualy you too will loot some of the kind of stuff you used to think was beyond your means. You will forever be a few steps behind the hard core but that is the way it is supposed to be.
    LOL at level 10 I think I was using a +2 Bastard Sword of Pure Good and wearing the plate from CO6 because +5 Full Plate was ungodly rare I am trying to remember if I even knew there were tomes in the game, I know I nor anyone I had run with had one nor had seen one pulled. That is back when a Wounder was the l33t weapon
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