DC's on elite are RIDICULOUS

[GeneralDiomedes]

There is an upside however .. mobs die much faster in their own traps

[Mad_Bombardier]

I don't get that. Pure rogues can get well over +60 trap reflex saves and im hearing the DCs are generally around 40, they don't need paladin levels.

Do you mind sharing how? Just toying with the numbers, I'm hitting a max of +51 Reflex save for Halfling Rogue16. And splashing Rogue13/Paladin3 nets a +59 Reflex save.

Update: with Resilience, Lightning Reflexes, and Luck of Heroes max +58 Reflex for Halfling Rogue 16. Max +66 Reflex for Halfling Rogue13/Paladin3.

[Crarites]

Do you mind sharing how? Just toying with the numbers, I'm hitting a max of +51 Reflex save for Halfling Rogue16. And splashing Rogue13/Paladin3 nets a +59 Reflex save.

Did you take resiliance as a feat?

[Mad_Bombardier]

Did you take resiliance as a feat?

Nope. Thanks, Crarites! (Didn't take any of the other saves feats either.)


P.S. As to the above 95% success ≠ Elite comment, if someone spends most of their feats and enhancements on a particular aspect of the game, they ARE a highly specialized, Elite build and should be able to succeed 95% of the time.

[Impaqt]

Do you mind sharing how? Just toying with the numbers, I'm hitting a max of +51 Reflex save for Halfling Rogue16. And splashing Rogue13/Paladin3 nets a +59 Reflex save.

My DeathDealer is considered a Pretty Solid Build...... Has always held her own in ELite level content... Keeps up with The Sorcs in Kill COunt, Hits al the trap Search and Disable DC's and is Mostly ROgue.. (Level 16 Bring her to 11Rogue/3Ranger/2Fighter)

So Primarily Reflex Class based.....

WIth GH, Recitation, Uncanny Dodge, a +4 Resistance Item, Head of Good Fortune, and a 34 Dex her Reflex is 47Vs Traps Factoring in +3 Trap Sense fromLevels and +3 Trap Sense from ENH.. I HATE Spending those Action points on Trap Sense as it dropped my DPS a bit.... But had to be done...
I'd love to see how staying pure rogue would keep me "Elite" and push that Reflex save 13 more points....

Edit: BTW M_B, Heres my 72 Bufed Reflex Save Halfling ROgue/Paly Build...
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=134718

[llevenbaxx]

Would be nice to have any official word on this very important issue. Seems to be some hard numbers in the thread which you would think might be enough to give a "Working as intended" or "Omfg thats not right!" Anyone in charge of traps anymore? Or is that the temps present charge in Rockings stead?

[miceelf88]

Don't you get it? They've "fixed" the traps now, there's no need for them to revisit them. Elite means elite.

They're all busy working on upping the will and fort and reflex saves of all monsters on elite, so that the kobolds in waterworks on elite to about 35, 30, 50. After all, elite should MEAN something!!! Those casters who want to cast spells they're not completely specced for, well, SOL.

Next, will be the AC and HP of the goodblades quest monsters on elite. They should be at least 40 and 700, respectively. Cause, you know, elite should mean something. Oh, and DR. They all need DR.

There's a lot of work to be done to make the game less inviting and enjoyable, to satisfy the l33t crowd. So don't hold your breath on devs getting back about trap save DCs

[dragnmoon]

Would be nice to have any official word on this very important issue. Seems to be some hard numbers in the thread which you would think might be enough to give a "Working as intended" or "Omfg thats not right!" Anyone in charge of traps anymore? Or is that the temps present charge in Rockings stead?

Is the Rocking dead gone?... He has not posted in 4 months

[Shade]

You talk about elite as if it's a player thing... this is not a player thing it is a build spec thing and has nothing to do with your ability as a player. So now we have all thes rogues out there respecing to figure in improved trap sense IV and luck and a few other things into thier builds.

Really not sure how you can logically think that if you any kind of gamer.

In every video game - difficulty settings are always bested by skilled players, players who know all the tricks. Nearly every rpg can be done on the highest setting at extremely low lvls by the true elite gamers - that is what Elite is.

Elite is 90% player skill, 5% quest knowledge and 5% character build. An elite player can play a very gimped character build and outshine 5 other average players playing perfectly build characters in any elite quest.

Elite is not,, oh no I need more XP to beat this. That doesn't work. A level10 crappy player group can't beat a quest like on threnal east part 3 elite. He also cannot do it at lvl16. But an elite player group can easily do it at lvl10.

Thats not how it works and it will never work that way.
Elite IS all about player skill.

[Hvymetal]

Really not sure how you can logically think that if you any kind of gamer.

In every video game - difficulty settings are always bested by skilled players, players who know all the tricks. Nearly every rpg can be done on the highest setting at extremely low lvls by the true elite gamers - that is what Elite is.

Elite is 90% player skill, 5% quest knowledge and 5% character build. An elite player can play a very gimped character build and outshine 5 other average players playing perfectly build characters in any elite quest.

Elite is not,, oh no I need more XP to beat this. That doesn't work. A level10 crappy player group can't beat a quest like on threnal east part 3 elite. He also cannot do it at lvl16. But an elite player group can easily do it at lvl10.

Thats not how it works and it will never work that way.
Elite IS all about player skill.

Don't we have a quest that was created for the super Elite crowd in which gear doesn't matter and player skill and teamwork along with knowledge & communication is more important than every thing else? So far all the l33t crowd has said about the new Abbot is complaints or crickets......

[Shade]

Halfling Rogue level16:
Dex - 20 base + 4 lvls, 24 +6 item ,30, +3 tome, 33, +5 enhancement, 38, +2 greensteel wep, 40 = +15
Amount - Type
10 - Base
1 - Racial size bonus
15 - Dex
5 - Resistance (boots of the innocent)
2 - Luck (head of good fortune)
9 - Trapsense (5 base +4 enhance)
3 - Enhancement - Halfling luck 3
4 - Morale - Greater Hero
4 - Resiliance
4 - Feats: lightning reflex, luck of heroes, snake blood
57
+6 Uncanny Dodge boost (2:30 - 3:30 contious use with no inbetween cooldown at lvl16 - enough for even the most trap laden dungeon)
= 63 Reflex vs traps self buffed
Paladin Aura +4
= +67 if a paladin can stay near you in the trap (unlikely)
That uses most feats and about 30 AP of 64. You can go further tho:
Way of the thief acrobat = +4 dex or +2 more reflex for +65

My original character was a rogue, I stopped leveling him years ago as traps were too easy, I only take him on von5.. He has +40 something reflex, +50 something skills.. He's level 11.

[Shade]

Don't we have a quest that was created for the super Elite crowd in which gear doesn't matter and player skill and teamwork along with knowledge & communication is more important than every thing else? So far all the l33t crowd has said about the new Abbot is complaints or crickets......

Reason is the phase puzzle is insanely hard even for the most elite players..

The rest of the quest is a fair challenge for elite players.

Well honestly the bigger reason I and allot of players don't give allot of time toward it is we already have allmost all the loot from there and none seems improved so far.

[GeneralDiomedes]

Don't we have a quest that was created for the super Elite crowd in which gear doesn't matter and player skill and teamwork along with knowledge & communication is more important than every thing else? So far all the l33t crowd has said about the new Abbot is complaints or crickets......

Yup.

And I figure my Sorc can solo stuff at level mostly because he knows the mobs inside and out (saves, spells, weapon dmg types, immunities, etc.), perches, AI behaviour, etc and he thinks a lot about tactics based on that knowledge. In other words, he knows the game and he knows the quest.

And I also think a lot of folks have really forgotten what it's like to run with sub-standard gear.

[MysticTheurge]

Elite is 90% player skill, 5% quest knowledge and 5% character build. An elite player can play a very gimped character build and outshine 5 other average players playing perfectly build characters in any elite quest.

Which may be where the problem arises.

These trap DC changes, especially in places where you have to run through or stand in the trap, make elite 90% character build, 5% quest knowledge and 5% player skill (if there's even that much player skill involved).

[Vormaerin]

MT,

Shade asserts that there are no such traps. According to him, every trap can be dealt with by twitch skills and the character build is just a safety net in case you make a mistake. Though he'd be happy if every mistake was instant death no matter your build, apparently.

I don't think there is a big enough market for pure twitch play in this game to justify making such a high percentage of the content out of the reach of even good players with good characters. There are games built around dying until you learn the gimmick for the area, but I don't think any of them should be called D&D.

Pretty much everyone was happy about the increase in damage from hard and elite traps... bring them in line with the rest of the quest. But this DC thing is a joke. Yes, you can make characters that can do at least the disarmable traps 95% of the time. But how many people are going to actually want to play rogues build that way? And how many parties are going to want that kind of rogue on a non trap run?

[Impaqt]

Halfling Rogue level16:
Dex - 20 base + 4 lvls, 24 +6 item ,30, +3 tome, 33, +5 enhancement, 38, +2 greensteel wep, 40 = +15
Amount - Type
10 - Base
1 - Racial size bonus
15 - Dex
5 - Resistance (boots of the innocent)
2 - Luck (head of good fortune)
9 - Trapsense (5 base +4 enhance)
3 - Enhancement - Halfling luck 3
4 - Morale - Greater Hero
4 - Resiliance
4 - Feats: lightning reflex, luck of heroes, snake blood
57
+6 Uncanny Dodge boost (2:30 - 3:30 contious use with no inbetween cooldown at lvl16 - enough for even the most trap laden dungeon)
= 63 Reflex vs traps self buffed
Paladin Aura +4
= +67 if a paladin can stay near you in the trap (unlikely)
That uses most feats and about 30 AP of 64. You can go further tho:
Way of the thief acrobat = +4 dex or +2 more reflex for +65

My original character was a rogue, I stopped leveling him years ago as traps were too easy, I only take him on von5.. He has +40 something reflex, +50 something skills.. He's level 11.

ROFL.. If that up there is your definition of the "Average Elite Rogue" I dont want to be elite..... Thats basically the build I posted the otehr day without the paly levels..... 40 Dex? Do you know somethign I dont? If the Average Rogue has 60ish, how come yours only has +40?

[BUpcott]

ROFL.. If that up there is your definition of the "Average Elite Rogue" I dont want to be elite..... Thats basically the build I posted the otehr day without the paly levels..... 40 Dex? Do you know somethign I dont? If the Average Rogue has 60ish, how come yours only has +40?

Shhh Shade knows all, silly boy!

[redoubt]

ROFL.. If that up there is your definition of the "Average Elite Rogue" I dont want to be elite..... Thats basically the build I posted the otehr day without the paly levels..... 40 Dex? Do you know somethign I dont? If the Average Rogue has 60ish, how come yours only has +40?

Well, Shade did say it was the max available. AND he went back to providing useful info instead of just spamming "elite is for elite and you guys aren't leet enough."

Knowing what the max attainable is important. From there we can adjust to what a normal, good and very good rogue should have. With that, we can look at setting the trap DCs correctly.

[Vormaerin]

ROFL.. If that up there is your definition of the "Average Elite Rogue" I dont want to be elite..... Thats basically the build I posted the otehr day without the paly levels..... 40 Dex? Do you know somethign I dont? If the Average Rogue has 60ish, how come yours only has +40?

Well, not that I'm supporting Shade's view of how the game should be but his rogue only has +40 because its only lvl 11 rather than capped like the rogue in the example.

[Shade]

Yea i did a few more elite heavy trap quests where people often think you must get by the trap to get thru..

STK.. Part3 flame jets I asked for fire protect to be safe - but made it thru with my full fire protect still no, not a single hit. I went ahead and cleared the shrine and by the time I was done that the rogue had died to the trap, i took him to the shrine...

Greymoon final 2 parts flame + force trap - bit more difficult, but jumping into the center of the X patern force trap and timing the flame jets got me thru with no hits. Another way is to get up top and jump over, with haste, featherfall and 40 jump you will make it past the whole trap. Or 20ish jump + sprint boost I.

I think turbine was always pretty careful about always giving players alternate ways to bypass traps.

I used to think allot couldn't be either, but keep learning new ways to pull things off.

Actually for probably 40+ runs of the titan I didn't think you could disable every trap in there .. But one night this amazing rogue did it, even the top lightning traps in the purple side and final lightning traps where you don't even need to go, it was really cool.

Ofcourse disabling the shooter traps that the ogres control generally isn't a rogues job, but my barbarian does that quite well. I usually don't spend the tiem to dodge every trap, but it is definetely possible there too. Also you can still kill them thru the walls with some select spells.