DC's on elite are RIDICULOUS

[winsom]

I don't get that. Pure rogues can get well over +60 trap reflex saves and im hearing the DCs are generally around 40, they don't need paladin levels.

How, without using saving throw bonus feats and Way of the Acrobat or racial saving throw enhancements?

I don't beleive Elite builds should be required to be nearly-perfectly min/maxed just for traps? The choice of race should also not be limited in order to be successful on Elite. How can a warforged rogue get near +60 Reflex without being a paladin?

I also don't beleive that an elite rogue needs to be a near-max DEX build. There should be some room for a STR-based rogue that also has very high DEX, but not 30+

The problem with extremely high save DCs on elite is that it extremely narrows character development choices to specific races, ability score builds, and alignement/class if 3 paladin levels becomes the new standard way of acheiving the saves required.

ELITE should be for elite character builds with the most of the best items and buffs available, but it should not be a members-only club for specific races with the requirement of spending 12 APS in each of several narrowly focused character ability-enhancements.

[Lunewann]

Don't you get it? They've "fixed" the traps now, there's no need for them to revisit them. Elite means elite.

They're all busy working on upping the will and fort and reflex saves of all monsters on elite, so that the kobolds in waterworks on elite to about 35, 30, 50. After all, elite should MEAN something!!! Those casters who want to cast spells they're not completely specced for, well, SOL.

Next, will be the AC and HP of the goodblades quest monsters on elite. They should be at least 40 and 700, respectively. Cause, you know, elite should mean something. Oh, and DR. They all need DR.

There's a lot of work to be done to make the game less inviting and enjoyable, to satisfy the l33t crowd. So don't hold your breath on devs getting back about trap save DCs

I have to agree. Elite should mean something it should not be for the faint hearted yes all DC's have been raised also this doesn't mean you have to build char's based around single objects of the game to complete. Elite also means that you should be playing with a group that understands the true aspect of a dungeon and working together as a group to over come these obsticals, they should have appropriate gear and be prepared to heal themselves if a healer is un-avaliable because they are focusing on someone else have min. buff pots and wands anything to help.... *the scout moto "be prepared"*

I admit a rogue is VERY important when it comes to working in traps due to the nature of there natrual ability to work in them. People say they see rogues fail in these traps.... I have yet myself failed in any of the new content on elite and still enjoy playing a lvl 16 rogue that can still be a valued combatant as well as being there to jump out of the fight to heal and if needed raise the dead. With some good buffs and good gear plus a good blend of enhancments it is more than possable to achive this.

Elite means working together.... there is no "I" in team. I will not argue that some content may seem tough to people if they want to do elite but is it meant to be easy with a name "ELITE"???

[Angelus_dead]

Perhaps they want traps to be lethal on elite. Perhaps, on elite, they expect you to bring a balanced party, including a rogue. Perhaps, they are saying "hey, if you do it on elite, running through traps isn't an option".

How is it reasonable for a quest 5 levels too low to give you any XP to still be massively lethal for a character?

How is it reasonable for a particular caster to solo a level 5 quest at level 6 without trouble... then advance to level 16, come back to the SAME quest, set it to elite, and be TOTALLY unable to survive the traps?

The idea of increasing the threat of elite traps is fine. The extent they took it to is not.

[Raithe]

Once again people want to argue whether or not this is about being an "elite" player. It's not. We could argue that the elite difficulty setting is not really that difficult for characters well beyond the quest level, and we could also point out that the objective of raising difficulties on a quest was to increase usable content for a particular character level, not to separate poor gamers from good ones. It doesn't really matter for this discussion.

The point, as others have pointed out numerous times in this thread, is that the stat values of rogues and other reflex-based characters just got devalued, once again. You can be the best player in the world, but if another good player is playing a better build who can do everything you can but better - you just became obsolete. Raising DCs does not separate the 30 reflex save + 8 trap sense rogues from the 37 reflex save paladin/rogues. They both just got their builds devalued, and neither one is going to be sought more in a group. In fact, because they both had to switch feats out for Resilience and Lightning Reflexes, they are now invited into groups less. The paladin/rogue, however, will be sought far more often because of the other paladin attributes that didn't get devalued.

Put a spin on that any way you want, it is still the bottom line truth.

[Lunewann]

Once again people want to argue whether or not this is about being an "elite" player. It's not. We could argue that the elite difficulty setting is not really that difficult for characters well beyond the quest level, and we could also point out that the objective of raising difficulties on a quest was to increase usable content for a particular character level, not to separate poor gamers from good ones. It doesn't really matter for this discussion.

The point is, as others have pointed out numerous times in this thread, that the stat values of rogues and other reflex-based characters just got devalued, once again. You can be the best player in the world, but if another good player is playing a better build who can do everything you can but better - you just became obsolete. Raising DCs does not separate the 30 reflex save + 8 trap sense rogues from the 37 reflex save paladin/rogues. They both just got their builds devalued, and neither one is going to be sought more in a group. In fact, because they both had to switch feats out for Resilience and Lightning Reflexes, they are now invited into groups less. The paladin/rogue, however, will be sought far more often because of the other paladin attributes that didn't get devalued.

Put a spin on that any way you want, it is still the bottom line truth.

If you are referring to my post Raithe you will see i made no mention of elite players.... I did how ever mention elite groups high end content is made for people that work together im not denying that the rogue/pally build is great for saves because it is. But there are ways to improve stats through gear and enhancments + buffs that will get almost all good rogue builds by without too much worry from the traps in the new content so far.

[Pellegro]

How is it reasonable for a particular caster to solo a level 5 quest at level 6 without trouble... then advance to level 16, come back to the SAME quest, set it to elite, and be TOTALLY unable to survive the traps?.

I dunno ... maybe they think that you shouldn't be running through traps on elite regardless of level?

Really ... you're taking the squishiest class in game (caster) and complaining that you can't live through an elite trap. Even if it is a level 5 quest, by choosing the "elite" option, you're choosing the "deadly traps that if you're gonna run through its gonna hurt".

You may not *like* that, and that's fine. But I can see why they would have this option that basically says ... If you want to run elite, do it with a balanced group where each team member has a role, and each follows it.

[Angelus_dead]

Really ... you're taking the squishiest class in game (caster) and complaining that you can't live through an elite trap.

Have you tested any of this? It's not specific to casters, but that is the strongest example. Heck, take a level 14 ranger. Go into a level 4 quest on Elite. Cast Fire Resist 30, stand in a fire trap, and see how long you last. Not long!

Even if it is a level 5 quest, by choosing the "elite" option, you're choosing the "deadly traps that if you're gonna run through its gonna hurt".

Why? How does it make sense for the traps to be scaled up to the equivalent of 10 or 12 levels higher than the base quest, but the monsters to become only 4 or 5 levels harder? Why should elite increase difficulty so un-evenly?

If you want to run elite, do it with a balanced group where each team member has a role, and each follows it.

How is that not reducing enjoyment of gameplay? Remember, we're not talking about characters of level X+2 or X+4 in a level X quest to elite. We're talking X+6, X+8, or even X+12 who can't handle it.

Why would the traps in level 4 elite quests be stronger than level 12 normal quests?

[miceelf88]

If we want to go down this "elite means very specific builds must be included in parties, regardless of level" path, why not ahve some cleric love? I mean a lot of elite players self-heal now. So maybe there's a danger that some groups won't include a cleric. The solution? Doors necesary to the quest that require DC 40 turning checks on elite level 1 qusets and scale up from there.

Your cleric isn't specced for turning? Well, you'll just have to adjust. You should have a balanced group for elite, after all.

Fighters need love too? Lets have STR 35 doors that need opening on said elite level 1 quests. You mean your level 3 fighter can't get up to 35 STR? Why are you in elite, you gimp?!!!

Etc.

it's trivially easy to make arbitrary barriers requiring very specific builds. Why this is better, or even good, let alone fun, is beyond me.

[suitepotato]

After looking over the thread and being out in the new harder world...

1. DC should be lowered to something sane.

2. Rogues should not have to be five or six levels beyond the quest to have a chance of surviving them to reach trapboxes on the far side.

So w/re2 #2, rogues should get some better saving and fighting capabilities else they are so trapsmith built they must be forever protected like taking Coyle with you everwhere you go and goodness, if you get a Leeroy Jenkins for a rogue you're totally boned. Or maybe make some sort of spell for sorcs and wizzes that can be cast on hapless escorted people.

I don't even want to think about running through the STK fire trap on elite as EVEN WITH A ROGUE you are fairly guaranteed to take serious damage BEFORE the changes. Afterward? Sending the rogue in there is to say, "have fun at the barbecue!"

I guess I'm running my level sixteen main from now on.

[BigNastyMP]

It's about time Turbine made "elite" a difficult setting that presents a decent challenge. Bravo on upping the difficulty of elite quests, especially for the end game content.

While I may or may not have read this entire post, it warms my heart to know so many of you agree with me.

[LOUDRampart]

If I were the DM (or dev) I'd make it as tough as I could to provide a challenge too.

[Raithe]

If I were the DM (or dev) I'd make it as tough as I could to provide a challenge too.

How is raising DC values an increase in "challenge" level? All it does is force people to:

1) Practice a trap without their gear on before actually running the quest.

-OR-

2) Swap out abilities they could have had for an increase to their stats in one area.

Let's not confuse "Difficulty Check" (DC) for actual gameplay difficulty. One is a stat of an in-game conceptual model, the other is a stat of the game itself.

[Vormaerin]

It really comes down to whether you want elite to be about the player's twitch skill or about the character. If the former, then we are fine where we are. Twitch skills are far more important on elite than anything about your character. Your character's abilities are just a (generally inadequate) fallback for error in twitching.

If you want it to be about your character, then you need to consider whether its reasonable to insist that rogues heavily lopside their build in favor of one of the least interesting and least applicable of their abilities: namely trapmonkeying. Most quests do not have traps that require the rogue to risk the trap to disable it. What, like 10% of the quests do? So you are basically saying that rogues need to sacrifice their other abilities to be able to handle 10% of the content, with those feats and enhancements being dead weight in other quests.

This is not going to make rogues more popular in groups, especially not in the trap free quests. Its going to result in more gimp rogues that struggle to perform except in trapmonkeying and are therefore undesirable. Quests that do have situations requiring a superflex rogue now will probably join the 'hardly ever run' list quickly or more players will start memorizing the safespots and twitch gimmicks for those traps rather than carry a trapmonkey.

[MysticTheurge]

I dunno ... maybe they think that you shouldn't be running through traps on elite regardless of level?

In D&D, traps are just another Challenge. They're just like monsters. And they should be appropriate to the target level.

So please stop making arguments to support this trap change that you couldn't also make for monsters. If they made, say, Hobgoblins immune to spells, gave them 1000 AC and To-Hit, 1 million hit points and made it so they deal 500 points of damage per hit, but only on elite, no one would be going "Oh, well Elite is supposed to be elite" or "Maybe they think you shouldn't be running past Hobgoblins on elite, regardless of level?"

[Emili]

I understand the timing, but that says more about a players twitch skills than the skills oif his character. If all it takes is the right timing on any trap then what is the point of having a reflex save to begin with. The fact is this is a game simulating a characters ability to avoid danger, the lecel of this ability is based on an artificial number called a reflex save that is pitted against a trap that also has an artificial number called a difficulty check. Whether someone takes damage or not is should be strictly determined based on that calculation, so timing your movements because you know the sequence is not a fair indicator of your chracters ability to save against those traps

And I agree... as I stated previously I do not advocte forcing a class to build a certain way or have a degree from a video arcade in mario hopping to play elite content. I was just pointing out that it is all (quest)game knowledge to do this and to a point eliminates those who do not know it from possibly ever doing it... point is what Shade say's is true but he only knows it because he's done it enough - he'd never be able to do it his first run on elite of something... this is a learned thing. Thus new rogues and classes take a terrible risk in doing it for the first time whereas people who have done it so much they can do it in thier sleep have no trouble. It is not player skill here it's knowledge and a little twitching at work. Do you take into account client latency? I just ran Rainbow on my ranger and the poor cleric behind me was so laggy he fell into the spike pit jumping from pillar to pillar so many times I cannot count... I could tell he was lagging because I stood on the other side and targeted him with my wand and sometimes when I went to wand whip him it healed me even though he was in my target window. It took so much of his and my mana in heals and wands it was nothing but scroll and wand heals for the end fight.

I do not believe it is fair to screen every rogue or class who applies to your group... I can see things right now as conversations between group leader and rogue applicant take place:

Group Leader: Can you get the trap?
Rogue: Yes, I'm sure I can.
Group Leader: What's your unbuffed save?
Rogue: Thirty-seven
Group Leader: Sorry you're under-qualified for this group.

This leads to a class being discriminated against for build...

Lastly, this also means people have to take rogues for many quest... some rogues see this as a good thing but it is reverse class descrimination. How many of you are going to stand around with an LFM up demanding a rogue while 50 other individual classes ask if you've room for them? In DnD there were other ways to remove the potency of a trap besides disabling it and none of those actually required a rogue... just brains. MT said it best in his post - in DnD this is true and there was never a such thing as a rogue requirement to complete a quest.

In D&D, traps are just another Challenge. They're just like monsters. And they should be appropriate to the target level.

So please stop making arguments to support this trap change that you couldn't also make for monsters. If they made, say, Hobgoblins immune to spells, gave them 1000 AC and To-Hit, 1 million hit points and made it so they deal 500 points of damage per hit, but only on elite, no one would be going "Oh, well Elite is supposed to be elite" or "Maybe they think you shouldn't be running past Hobgoblins on elite, regardless of level?"

[Jacoby]

I agree that the traps should be harder...

I agree that the loot still sucks and collectable drops also suck on a grand scale. The only players that can actually build anything are farmers who play the game 20 hours a day.

I agree that the DC's and resistances are also way out of line.

They do this, I'm sure, to add life to the game. What they also add is a measureable degree of frustration that is driving away their populations.

[Scholar]

In D&D, traps are just another Challenge. They're just like monsters. And they should be appropriate to the target level.

So please stop making arguments to support this trap change that you couldn't also make for monsters. If they made, say, Hobgoblins immune to spells, gave them 1000 AC and To-Hit, 1 million hit points and made it so they deal 500 points of damage per hit, but only on elite, no one would be going "Oh, well Elite is supposed to be elite" or "Maybe they think you shouldn't be running past Hobgoblins on elite, regardless of level?"

Well said.

[ArkoHighStar]

In D&D, traps are just another Challenge. They're just like monsters. And they should be appropriate to the target level.

So please stop making arguments to support this trap change that you couldn't also make for monsters. If they made, say, Hobgoblins immune to spells, gave them 1000 AC and To-Hit, 1 million hit points and made it so they deal 500 points of damage per hit, but only on elite, no one would be going "Oh, well Elite is supposed to be elite" or "Maybe they think you shouldn't be running past Hobgoblins on elite, regardless of level?"

I think the dc will be lowered just like every time they have been raised, remember search and spot being raised, and disable being raised.

Example

Previous DC :25 Turbine thought it was too low and so did some users
New DC:38 People are freaked out because now it is just way out of wack
Final DC:32 We rejoice because they lower it forgetting they still managed to raise the dc on us

and we fall for it every time

[Jaywade]

traps are way out of wack, was doing the vons and teh damage was insane (which I thought was okay) but the saves neeed to be brought down maybe spilt the difference from where they were to where they are now

[MysticTheurge]

I think the dc will be lowered just like every time they have been raised, remember search and spot being raised, and disable being raised.

Example

Previous DC :25 Turbine thought it was too low and so did some users
New DC:38 People are freaked out because now it is just way out of wack
Final DC:32 We rejoice because they lower it forgetting they still managed to raise the dc on us

and we fall for it every time

It's funny because I think a lot of people in this thread would be happy with DCs and Damage that are higher than they were before Mod 6. It just seems like most people think they went too far in raising them.

(Which is to say, it'd be fine if they went 25->32 even without the stopover at 38.)