DC's on elite are RIDICULOUS

[Angelus_dead]

On Elite, "level appropriate" is a bit of a misnomer. It may grant XP and loot as a quest two levels higher, but you need to be at least another 2 beyond that to be "on average" with the monsters and traps themselves.

That is how DDO used to work, and still continues to work in most situations. But for these new trap DCs, an elite quest is more like TEN levels above normal in terms of reflex saves.

[Invalid_86]

Welcome to the side effects of DDO power creep.

[AkromaAoW]

OK, I just took a quick trip to Cabal for One on elite. I figured that if the DC for search and disable have raised uniformly across quests on hard and elite, then the bar should be really high in Cabal at the trap chest - near impossible, it would seem, if the DC had jumped significantly. Found and disabled the trap. Disabled with a first roll hitting 75, where I believe the disable has been 72ish. So, this doesnt seem to have changed, or if it has, not by more than 3.

[Pellegro]

It basically means you need a dedicated trapsmith, not someone with a splash of rogue, to advance you past anything like [VON 5 on elite].

In my humble opinion, thats precisely how it should be. Their should be a setting - elite - where if you want to disable the traps, you need someone 100% dedicated to doing so. On normal or hard, traps can be handled by those who "splash" rogue. On elite, it really should require builds that are designed to do something ... traps, spell DCs, etc.

You get 12 slots in a raid. Pick up a trapsmith. Just my humble opinion ....

[MysticTheurge]

In my humble opinion, thats precisely how it should be. Their should be a setting - elite - where if you want to disable the traps, you need someone 100% dedicated to doing so.

Yeah, but people are talking (and I've not tested it myself, so YMMV) like it's hard, if not impossible, for someone 2-4 levels above the adjusted level of the quest to handle and/or take care of the traps.

If so, that's sort of a problem.

Making traps harder was never a good way to make rogues more valuable. Aside from the entire "You shouldn't have to have any single, particular class in your group" problem, there's also the fact that it forces rogues to focus solely on one thing if they want to even be able to come close to doing that one thing. And when you add in the fact that rogues are the only ones who can do that thing, you've got a problem. A problem called pigeonholing.

[Vormaerin]

You can make a build with a crazy high reflex save without it totally gimping the character. But we aren't talking raids where you get 12 people. We are talking quests like Goodblades, Gwylan's, Scoundrel's run, and other typical quests. But really, is it a good idea to require a very lopsided build to handle elite quests? As in, no you can't go on them if you don't have exactly the right party composition with the exactly right set of unusual builds? That hardly seems like a good idea to me.

[tekn0mage]

In my humble opinion, thats precisely how it should be. Their should be a setting - elite - where if you want to disable the traps, you need someone 100% dedicated to doing so. On normal or hard, traps can be handled by those who "splash" rogue. On elite, it really should require builds that are designed to do something ... traps, spell DCs, etc.

You get 12 slots in a raid. Pick up a trapsmith. Just my humble opinion ....

Welcome to min/max gaming...something DDO has always tried to avoid.

For those of you who did NOT build a min/max toon, you'll now be at the mercy of those who did.

[studentx]

Was running Scoundrel's Run today on Elite. Save DC's for the fire hallway are between a 36 and 38 - for every flame jet there. This seems a tad much. Maybe a rogue with improved evasion and uncanny dodge can get through it, but probably want to buff with Fire Shield as well - good luck. I'm curious if a level-appropriate rogue can do it.

A halfing perhaps with good rolls or a dwarf with plenty of buffs and hitpoints, keep in mind both would have to have the two splash levels of paladin for extra saves. Improved evasion is lvl 10 so I doubt. Only takes one low roll since rogues don't have hitpoints.

Another reason not to play a rogue in a game where an entire classes design concept was disarm and open locks, such a waste.

[studentx]

Yeah, but people are talking (and I've not tested it myself, so YMMV) like it's hard, if not impossible, for someone 2-4 levels above the adjusted level of the quest to handle and/or take care of the traps.

If so, that's sort of a problem.

Making traps harder was never a good way to make rogues more valuable. Aside from the entire "You shouldn't have to have any single, particular class in your group" problem, there's also the fact that it forces rogues to focus solely on one thing if they want to even be able to come close to doing that one thing. And when you add in the fact that rogues are the only ones who can do that thing, you've got a problem. A problem called pigeonholing.

No no it is a clever design mechanism.

[Vormaerin]

Another reason not to play a rogue in a game where an entire classes design concept was disarm and open locks, such a waste.

Uhh, what are you talking about? The rogue is hardly all about traps and locks. That's not even its secondary contribution to a group, more like the tertiary. Rogues, at least good ones, add a lot of damage potential to the group as well as versatility in emergency back up roles through superior UMD. The fact that they can remove traps and locks is a nice benefit, but if its the only reason a rogue is brought along it shows a pretty poor understanding of the class.

Though it is sad how many of the players of rogues also have that same misconception..... *sigh*

[honkuimushi]

In my humble opinion, thats precisely how it should be. Their should be a setting - elite - where if you want to disable the traps, you need someone 100% dedicated to doing so. On normal or hard, traps can be handled by those who "splash" rogue. On elite, it really should require builds that are designed to do something ... traps, spell DCs, etc.

You get 12 slots in a raid. Pick up a trapsmith. Just my humble opinion ....

Actually right now, the best trapsmith build would probably be a drow Ranger 2/ Paladin 3/ Rogue 11. You get +3 to your reflex save from the Ranger, +1 from the Paladin and +7 from the Rogue. In addition you have Divine Grace, the first save enhancement from the paladin, +3 trap sense from the rogue levels plus the trapsense enhancements. Without gear or enhancements and a 16 Chr and Dex, you have an 20 Reflex save. If you add in enhancements, Dex items, Chr items, and Resistance items you should easily reach a 30 and 40 should be possible with the right gear. You get Improved Evasion, too. Is this what you mean by a dedicated build?

In contrast, a 16th level rogue with a 16 dex has 10 Reflex Save from levels, +5 from trap sense and +3 from dex for an 18 Reflex Save. If you raise the initial dex to 20, you can meet the 20 from the above build, but you only have at most 1 trap sense enhancement more than above and you lack Divine Grace and the ability to improve your saves through Charisma Items and enhancements and the Paladin Save enhancements.

With the current save DCs, it appears that it's only the Paladin splashes that can survive these traps. I find that a very disturbing development.

Edit: On second thought, a 32 pt. halfling with the same build could probably beat a drow on saves. I'm not sure about a 28 pt. build. The drow stat bonuses in all the right places might beat out the halfling enhancements. You also would start having trouble with having enough APs to take everything you want.

[Thrudh]

I haven't done a lot of traps with my drow bard/rogue on elite since Mod 6 came out...

However, I did run VON 5 on elite, and the trap DCs in there were at least 38 (I had a 28 reflex save - that's with a 24 Dex, GH, +3 resistance item, and Head of Good Fortune (+2 saves)), and I failed (and died) on a 10...

After that, I let the "pure" rogue handle the traps... and he died at least 3-4 times.... (he never did respond to my requests for his save numbers)

I did disarm several boxes that weren't protected by an active trap, and the DCs seem unchanged for search and disable.

Problem is... I don't see how I can get my reflex save up any higher... Maybe I can get my Dex up to 26... maybe I can find a +4/+5 resistance item....

Most would consider me a "splashed" rogue... but I started with an 18 Intelligence on purpose for my rogue side and have kept ALL my rogue skills maxed out... So I feel I'm fairly dedicated to it...

I'll reserve judgement on the new system for a bit longer...

[MysticRhythms]

That's interesting about not being able to find the trap. The DC's for spot, search, open locks and disable seem unchanged from what I've tried so far, which is as the Dev's said they would be...

I'm finding this to still be the case on my Rogue.

[MysticTheurge]

Uhh, what are you talking about? The rogue is hardly all about traps and locks.

Except when the game forces you to devote massive amounts of resources towards traps and locks if you want to be able to disarm/open them, then yeah, the class starts to be "all about" traps and locks.

[Talcyndl]

OK, I just took a quick trip to Cabal for One on elite. I figured that if the DC for search and disable have raised uniformly across quests on hard and elite, then the bar should be really high in Cabal at the trap chest - near impossible, it would seem, if the DC had jumped significantly. Found and disabled the trap. Disabled with a first roll hitting 75, where I believe the disable has been 72ish. So, this doesnt seem to have changed, or if it has, not by more than 3.

This thread is about the SAVE DC's for traps - ie the reflex you need to avoid getting skewered, sliced or diced.. Those have apparently increased.

The spot, search and disable was not supposed to have changed. Except, thankfully, they LOWERED the search in the Cabal one.

So not surprised by your results.

[studentx]

Uhh, what are you talking about? The rogue is hardly all about traps and locks. That's not even its secondary contribution to a group, more like the tertiary. Rogues, at least good ones, add a lot of damage potential to the group as well as versatility in emergency back up roles through superior UMD. The fact that they can remove traps and locks is a nice benefit, but if its the only reason a rogue is brought along it shows a pretty poor understanding of the class.

Though it is sad how many of the players of rogues also have that same misconception..... *sigh*

Oh I understand what they can be. I've just had to drop lots of what they can be (enhancement and feat wise) in the last two mods to make the rogue a rouge/trap monkey.

I have no problems controlling my aggro and even though I'd never get a buff from a pug no biggie I buff myself or use that non-buffing caster as a ray/Disintegrate shield.

[AkromaAoW]

This thread is about the SAVE DC's for traps - ie the reflex you need to avoid getting skewered, sliced or diced.. Those have apparently increased.

The spot, search and disable was not supposed to have changed. Except, thankfully, they LOWERED the search in the Cabal one.

So not surprised by your results.

Yes, the bulk of this thread is about saves and increased trap damage. However, if you read through all the posts, you'll find a couple that conjecture increased search and disable DC (one about Rogues needing extra buffs now to find/disable a trap in VON 5 on elite). Those are the ones I am addressing. I don't think that search and disable DC have changed (except possibly the search on Cabal, though it still remains high). Otherwise, I don't dispute that the DC for saves has increased...

[Westerner]

I don't mind the several hundred damage.

But if the DCs are over 40, that could be a bit too much even for a Rogue.

/signed

I experienced this issue in CO6 elite, mephit chapter, where the box is on the far side of the trap. The full rogue was unable to make it across the trap via evasion and had to rely on twitch.

More trap dmg is fine, but the save DC's are off the charts.

[Dirkan]

Keep in mind that if a rogue has died trying to get through the trap, then when he is rez'd on the other side he now has the new temporary debuff.

[GeneralDiomedes]

A better solution would have been to increase the damage as they have, but have left the DCs alone, or only slightly increased them.

At least you can still get lucky and make it through if your party doesn't have a Rogue built exclusively for maximum reflex save. Has any other class besides Rogue been put through the reroll grinder as much? I am starting to feel sorry for them.