DC's on elite are RIDICULOUS

[EinarMal]

How are they ignoring them?

The new raid is THE content designed for people who don't like mega hard raids like abbot. It's super easy to get ready for, not nessary to do on elite at all, and very easy to do even for casual gamers with zero twitch skill.

You guys aren't being ignored at all. Turbine knows who there #1 customer is. And it's definetely not me lol

I agree with the new raid, absolutely, but the trap DC thing is a step in the wrong direction in my opinion. I am fine with traps being more deadly, but when a "normal" rogue with ~35-40 evasion save against traps has to rely on twitch skills to disable or get through traps that is a problem to me.

Again I am fine with making an ultra hard mode for people who want that, I am also fine if they adjust what elite difficulty does in terms of favor/reward.

The way it is now though is kind of harsh given that everyone has to run a lot of quests on elite or be shut out of some cool rewards.

[miceelf88]

I give you credit for acknowledging the favor issue, which is the big issue I suspect most of us have with elite being the way it is now. (still not sure if emphasizing twitch is what the devs were going for, but that may be a moot point).

And, if favor is really important AND elite is the way to get faster favor AND elite is the way you are describing it, then yes, the bulk of the gamers are getting ignored in favor of you.

If as I think you and the naysayers agree on, elite should not net extra favor, then I think we can both be happy. You can have your elite with whatever it contains, and we naysayers can have non-impeccable twitch skills and still enjoy the game.

[Yaga_Nub]

Well here's the thing, only a tiny fraction of the player base are really excellent players with super twitch skills/build knowledge/game knowledge/uber gear. If that is what is required to do elite quests even remotely near your level this will become a big issue. I don't think this is the case yet, although it seems to be more and more headed in that direction.

Who said Shade elite?

[tekn0mage]

I respect the fact that base XP and bonus XP's are higher on elite, but they are now way out of balance compared to the difficulty of the quest.

I'd like to see the rewards and the XP bumped up. Perhaps you could incrementally grant XP during milestones in an elite mission. That way, you don't get to an impassable place (depending on builds and depending on LFM/LFG choices, this now can conceivably happen) and get absolutely ZERO for it.

As it stands now, this issue needs to be bumped to the absolute highest priority (once they fix the flagging for DQ & VON raids, respectively).

[Yaga_Nub]

As it stands now, this issue needs to be bumped to the absolute highest priority (once they fix the flagging for DQ & VON raids, respectively).

They aren't going to fix the flagging for DQ and VON so you might as well ask them to make this the number one priority.

[tekn0mage]

They aren't going to fix the flagging for DQ and VON so you might as well ask them to make this the number one priority.

I know I just had to throw it in there.

[Tanka]

One thing about the whole "dodging" aspect.

I play my character.

My character does not play me.

In PnP, just because I say "I roll Open Lock" does not mean the GM should ever throw a real lock at me and tell me (the player) to pick it to see if my character succeeds.

The opposite applies. I might know how to repair a PC, but my Barbarian thinks all technology is magical and to be feared.

Why should this be different in DDO?

[miceelf88]

One of the cool things about DDO (currently, anyway) is that you don't need any particular class to run most of the quests.

Other night, my battle bard and three rangers did the first two parts of delera's. We were joined partyway through by a fighter, and only in the third part by a cleric. It was fun. My bard doesn't heal very much/well, and we all wand whipped and mainly self-buffed, but worked together pretty well.

Waiting aroudn hoping a particular build of rogue (or whatever) would show up is just not fun.

[tekn0mage]

One of the cool things about DDO (currently, anyway) is that you don't need any particular class to run most of the quests.

Other night, my battle bard and three rangers did the first two parts of delera's. We were joined partyway through by a fighter, and only in the third part by a cleric. It was fun. My bard doesn't heal very much/well, and we all wand whipped and mainly self-buffed, but worked together pretty well.

Waiting aroudn hoping a particular build of rogue (or whatever) would show up is just not fun.

Ok now go back and do that on elite with the same party (without a rogue) and tell me how you did.

[Lithic]

Ok now go back and do that on elite with the same party (without a rogue) and tell me how you did.

I'd be more interested to know how a group of 6 lvl 7-10 characters (including at least one rogue) would fare in the fire room in STK Elite pt 3.

Or a group of lvl 9-12s in the pit elite dancing around those force traps (I dont think ill ever do that quest without Ddoor again).

Or a group of 12 lvl 16 rogues in VON5 elite trying to disable the door trap. You know the one Im talking about.

Edit: The most disturbing part about the trap save DC's is that they created a thread where I agree with tekno...Scary.

[Invalid_86]

Twitch skills should have absolutely zero effect on avoiding traps.

Why should my Evading 20+ Dex character be penalized by my lack of a 20+ Dex?

You roll your save. Thems the D&D rules.

[miceelf88]

I agree with you. That's the point. Keeping the DCs as they are will reduce the fun of nonstandard groups.

[bobbryan2]

Twitch skills should have absolutely zero effect on avoiding traps.

Why should my Evading 20+ Dex character be penalized by my lack of a 20+ Dex?

You roll your save. Thems the D&D rules.

Because it's a video game. Twitch skills are part of a video game.

[Vormaerin]

Err, no. Twitch skills are part of certain kinds of video games. D&D games are, traditionally, not part of that group. There isn't one out there that is a twitch game other than this one. Actually, few MMOs are much for twitch gaming. And, up until now, twitch gaming was a nice perk for DDO but not a necessity. Any design which pretty much tells the rogues: "Screw it, if you aren't a great twitch player with detailed knowledge of the quest, don't bother" is bad. That's pretty much what this change is doing. You either build a character that is subpar for 90% of the content by obsessing with trap saves or you have exellent twitch skills and the knowledge of where to use them. Or you don't play a rogue.

Neither is good way for this sort of game to go. What this change really means is that a swath of quests will just fall off the list of quests that people do on elite (and, perhaps, on hard in some cases). Yay, that's really good for the game.

[Pellegro]

Err, no. Twitch skills are part of certain kinds of video games. D&D games are, traditionally, not part of that group. There isn't one out there that is a twitch game other than this one. Actually, few MMOs are much for twitch gaming. And, up until now, twitch gaming was a nice perk for DDO but not a necessity. Any design which pretty much tells the rogues: "Screw it, if you aren't a great twitch player with detailed knowledge of the quest, don't bother" is bad. That's pretty much what this change is doing. You either build a character that is subpar for 90% of the content by obsessing with trap saves or you have exellent twitch skills and the knowledge of where to use them. Or you don't play a rogue.

Neither is good way for this sort of game to go. What this change really means is that a swath of quests will just fall off the list of quests that people do on elite (and, perhaps, on hard in some cases). Yay, that's really good for the game.

The incorporation of twitch skills is one of the few unique things this MMO has going for it.

Remove those and you're left with another WoW, LOTRo, EQ, ... etc.

Please don't start with the whole "oh noes on elite this game requires actual manual dexterity". That is a *strength* of DDO, and I personally applaud their making "elite" even more reliant on that gameplay style.

It always gets my goose when people complain that "elite" is too "elite". Its not. Elite is still relatively easy. Its been what, 2 weeks? And how many folks have done *all* the new content on elite?

Nothign requires you to do elite. You can get 1750 favor without *ever* touchign elite. It will take you a few levels longer, yes, but it can be done.

Really ... you've got normal, and you've got hard. Leave Elite alone.

EDIT: My "rant" has nothign to do with the poster I quoted. He was merely convenient. This is more directed to the numerous posters in this thread who seem to think that even on elite, trap saves should be set at a level that allows them to be made more than 33% of the time for a level appropriate character (as that seems to be about where they're at now).

EDIT2: To more directly address the post I quoted -- No. There are very few traps in this game that you MUST trigger. I've seen 4 listed here. Other than those (and any that haven't been listed), the trap *can* be disabled withotu triggering it. The issue here isn't that rogues are no longer relevant. The issue is that traps are now lethal. Those 4 examples excepted.

[Raithe]

People build characters to handle certain tasks. Regardless of whether elite is supposed to be about twitch skill and "elite" players or not (I'll repeat that this doesn't really matter for the discussion at hand), those character statistics should matter. Throwing out reflex saves and evasion on elite makes building those characters with evasion and high reflexes nearly worthless. If trap sense is not useful, what are you going to give rogues in its place? Well?

This elitist attitude is funny. Is jumping to miss the fire trap on the first horn in the Crucible really that elite? Is running against the door in VoN 3 to miss the force trap really that elite? Is walking down the center between rows of spike traps really that elite? Is casting haste and hitting sprint boost and running straight (holding a key down, for Pete's sake) to pass the troll lair bridge in Grey Moon really that elite? The answer, for those still wondering, is no. Anyone who thinks that Turbine upped the DCs to enforce bypassing traps through twitch play might need to have their head examined (and this includes the developers, in case they can actually be included...).

I actively try to avoid making any saves on all my characters, because a 1 is still failure regardless. Making 2s through 18s failures as well invalidates most of my build, and most of my characters.

[Pellegro]

Finding alternative ways to being damaged by traps is, in my opinion, a good thing. Whether you want to call it elite or not -whatever. I even think when people come up with (as opposed to copy) what might be deemed an exploit -thats pretty cool. They took a system, and they figured out a way to beat it. Running the exploit repeatedly is not cool. All the johnny-come-latelys who are mere coat-tail riders, are also not cool. They're just cheating.

Gwylan's is a level 7 quest. The save DC for the traps in there, on elite, is 38. The damage if you fail is about 100 (actually a bit lower).

Is that really game breaking? Does that really make rogues useless?

All they've done is made traps more relevant. Everybody used to zerg through them. Now you can't. Well, you can, but its gonna do more serious damage than before.

Rogues can still disable (the DCs to disable were not, as far as I know, raised). Its just that there's a real cost if you don't let them, or if you just ignore the traps. In the 4 instances where you can't disable the traps without setting them off .... in those 4 instances I agree that the DC should be slightly lowered. Or, better yet, just insure that there is *some* way to avoid the trap.

[Raithe]

Is that really game breaking? Does that really make rogues useless?

Ummm... we wouldn't be having this discussion if the answer wasn't Yes, horrendously so.

[Hvymetal]

**** right. AC makes the game too easy since you can physically dodge monster attacks too, and do it while melee'ing them back to boot

I don't have permanent true seeing - I use mentaus googles, so mobs should use those too imo.. But cast trueseeing often, which allot of newer monsters do.

Elite bosses like Arraetrikos infact do have permanent undispellable truseeing.

Cool, so then what you are saying that it is fine if this feature is retroactivly instituted to previous quests on Elite right? That's what they did to traps..... Also they should hit a for a lot more damage to equal the trap change and to make it so those high hp barbs also have to rely solely on twitch skills also right?

Edit: Also for the people curious about STK ran STK elite on a 3/3 Drow Rogue/Paladin along with a 7 pure Rogue in the party. Decided to let the pure have a go at the fire trap 1st. (I usually believe in letting the higher level Rogue have at the traps and I am not trying to fight over who disables which trap 1st)

With 20 point resists and protect from our 7th level Cleric the Rogue died in the trap. I decided to try and go after the other Rogue. Managed to avoid the trap until I misjudged slightly at the end and I landed just at the edge of the last flame jet as it was coming on. Failed my save and died

The Barbarian w/ protect and resist managed to run through 2 or 3 of the jets and still make it w/ hp to spare.

[tekn0mage]

This, like many other things Turbine implements was NOT thought out.

I'm tired of pointless, direction less, arbitrary and counterproductive changes.