Barbarian Pro's Feedback Welcomed

[wiglin]

Well after coming back to the game with all my characters deleted I am still undecided as to the type of build I want to play. After capping all the typical caster types builds before I left I have decided on a mellee. I have never played a barbarian so I am a little noobish on them. I wanted to be self sufficient and be able to tank situationally. This Barb will not out DPS a Shade or Maldini barb, but it fits what is fun for me. I have factored in the AC to be very situational and I would not be raging when needing to tank. The AC is more burst AC so it wouldn't be the whole time, but is achievable since one of my regular party members has a full paladin aura. My main concerns are rage length and number of rages. I opted for extra rage over rage duration because I may need to dismiss rage to use umd or become a tank. I also wanted solid saves against spells. I need at least 1 Rogue level for UMD so might as well take 2 for evasion.

Any comments are welcomed.

Race: Dwarf
Class: (14 Barbarian / 2 Rogue)

Hit Points w/ Rage: 452

Saves:
Fortitude: 17 +5Item +4GH =26 +4Rage =30 +5Spells =35
Reflex: 13 +5Item +4GH +1Haste =23 (+4Trap Sense =27 +6UD =33) or +5Spells =28
Will: 9 +5Item +4GH =18 +6Rage =24 +5Spells =29

Stats:
Strength 15 +1Tome +4Level +6Item +10Rage +2Rage Potion =38 (+15)
Dexterity 15 +1Tome +6Item =22 (+6)
Constitution 15 +1Tome +4Enhancement +6Item +8Rage =34 (+12)
Intelligence 13 +1Tome =14
Wisdom 8
Charisma 12 +2Favor Tome +6Item =20(+5)

Tomes Used
+1 Strength
+1 Dexterity
+1 Constitutions
+1 Intelligence
+2 Favor Tome of Charisma used before level 15

Skills:
Balance-----------19
Diplomacy---------24 +11Item +4GH =39
Intimidate--------24 +11Item +4GH =39
Jump--------------34
Open Lock---------15 +15Item +7Tools +4GH =41
Use Magic Device--27 +3Item +1Item +4GH +2ROB =37

Level Progression
Level 1 (Rogue)--------Power Attack
Level 2 (Barbarian)
Level 3 (Barbarian)----Skill Focus: Use Magic Device
Level 4 (Barbarian)
Level 5 (Barbarian)
Level 6 (Barbarian)----Combat Expertise
Level 7 (Barbarian)
Level 8 (Barbarian)
Level 9 (Barbarian)----Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Level 10 (Rogue)
Level 11 (Barbarian)
Level 12 (Barbarian)---Toughness
Level 13 (Barbarian)
Level 14 (Barbarian)
Level 15 (Barbarian)---Force of Personality
Level 16 (Barbarian)

Enhancements:
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Barbarian Sprint Boost II
Enhancement: Barbarian Critical Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage III
Enhancement: Barbarian Hardy Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Intimidation
Enhancement: Barbarian Item Defense I
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage IV
Enhancement: Barbarian Willpower II
Enhancement: Dwarven Armor Mastery I
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack I
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution II
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense III
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution II
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness III

Attack Bonus:
15 BAB
14 Str / or 8Str
5 Weapon
1 Haste
1 Enhancement
4 GH
-5 PA / or CE
---------------
35 Rage / 29 Tank


Armor Class: Situational Tanking
10 Base
10 MBP
7 HMS
6 Dex Bonus
5 Protection
2 Chaos Guard
5 Combat Expertise
3 Barkskin
1 Haste
1 Parry
---------------
49 Self Buffed
4 Paladin
---------------
53
6 Uncanny Dodge
---------------
59 Short Duration
2 Barb Intimidation (Mobs take -2 to attack bonus from shaken)
---------------
61 Short Duration

[Shade]

At the lower lvls AC helps a fair bit.

But in terms of really tanking in DDO... It's not about AC.

It's about player skill and equipment. The only real factors on the serious bosses or harder mobs that need to be tanked are HP and DR.. AC helps here and there but its never a big one.

Definetely not worth wasting all those stats points on intellgence and a feat on combat expertise for. The only reason I can see to get a combat expertise on a barbarian is if you wanted improved trip - but you never selected it.

You have to choose somewhere, you can't have everything without gimping yourself.
Your chose will be between:
Combat expertise for a little more AC
or
Higher Cha for better umd.

Also everything this build does clashes with umd. Use a wand ot heal? combat expterise off. Rage? Combat expertise impossible. Get that max umd so you can be very self sufficient with heal scrolls - youll never have time to reanble combat expertise.

So you need to cut it down to 2 of the 3.
AC
UMD
Barbarian

Trying to do all 3 is going to make a gimped character.

Few problems:
Minimum strength for a barbarian to melee at all: 16. 17/18 high recommended.
Rage is pointless without high con and a good amount of extend rage. You get 4a day at 14 anyways without any enhancements. Get xtend rage 2 or 3. Xtra rage is like another 1 minuit rage for you, vs extend rage which is 4-5 X +30-60 secondss, which can mean several more minuits.
Toughness is a waste of a feat on a barbarian. Never take it. Also a massive waste of enhancements. Just get the con enhancements for more hp.

AC:
Yours is barely better then someone who didn't put any focus in it. yet you devoted a ton of your stat points and feats towards it. Mine on my max dps build is over 60 buffed.. Thats with top end gear, but really the only thing your build gets over mine AC wise is combat expertise, thats 5 points - and like I explained is not really useable frequently. In terms of real end game tanking, the +100 HP, +7 will saves or more you get for raging is almost always better then the +5 AC u get for CE.

UMD barbarians ca be extremely versatile and great characters. They are very difficult to play and build well however.

[wiglin]

Thanks for the input Shade. I do enjoy your feedback as you have probably logged as much if not more hours playing a barb then most people still in this game.

What about this.

Drop Dex to 11 and Raise Str to 17 with my +1 tomes I am 18 and 12. That puts me a +3 dex tome from maxing my ac in mbp.

Then drop toughness and pick up improve trip. I lose about 30 hps total, but that frees up the enhancements to take Extend Rage III, dwarven tactics 1, barbarian intimidate 1 and rogue open lock 1 or whatever takes 1 action point.

That lets me hit a 40 Str while raging, and Improved Trip sounded fun. I still maintain the Int I want for skills and I am able to get longer rages.

Thoughts?

[Jack_No.7]

gh and rage dont stack there both moral bonus

[wiglin]

So that lowers the will save. Although the bonus from rage are calculated as an enchanted bonus on the character sheet not moral.

Shade what are your thoughts on the proposed changes?

[wiglin]

Stats:
Strength 17 +1Tome +4Level +6Item +10Rage +2Rage Potion =40 (+16)
Dexterity 11 +1Tome +6Item =18 (+4)
Constitution 15 +1Tome +4Enhancement +6Item +8Rage =34 (+12)
Intelligence 13 +1Tome =14
Wisdom 8
Charisma 12 +2Favor Tome +6Item =20(+5)

Tomes Used
+1 Strength
+1 Dexterity
+1 Constitutions
+1 Intelligence
+2 Favor Tome of Charisma used before level 15

Skills:
Balance-----------19
Diplomacy---------24 +11Item +4GH =39
Intimidate--------24 +11Item +4GH =39
Jump--------------35
Open Lock---------13 +15Item +7Tools +4GH =39
Use Magic Device--27 +3Item +1Item +4GH +2ROB =37

Level Progression
Level 1 (Rogue)-------Power Attack
Level 2 (Barbarian)
Level 3 (Barbarian)----Skill Focus: Use Magic Device
Level 4 (Barbarian)
Level 5 (Barbarian)
Level 6 (Barbarian)----Combat Expertise
Level 7 (Barbarian)
Level 8 (Barbarian)
Level 9 (Barbarian)----Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Level 10 (Rogue)
Level 11 (Barbarian)
Level 12 (Barbarian)---Improved Trip
Level 13 (Barbarian)
Level 14 (Barbarian)
Level 15 (Barbarian)---Force of Personality
Level 16 (Barbarian)

Enhancements:
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Barbarian Sprint Boost II
Enhancement: Barbarian Critical Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage III
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage III
Enhancement: Barbarian Hardy Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Intimidation
Enhancement: Barbarian Intimidation SKill I
Enhancement: Barbarian Item Defense I
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage IV
Enhancement: Barbarian Willpower II
Enhancement: Dwarven Armor Mastery I
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack I
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution II
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense III
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics I
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution II

[tihocan]

Went quickly through it but here is some info, since I play a barb/rogue as well:
- you cannot use CE while raging (though you may know this already, better point it out)
- if you want high AC, you need enough dex to get max AC bonus from light armor (i.e. 20 dex for MBP, 22 for KDS)
- it helps to have high dex for evasion to be really useful
- I do not see the point of picking diplomacy as a skill
- improved trip is awesome
- so is stunning blow

[wiglin]

tihocan,

thanks for the reply.

I am aware of the CE and Rage not working together. Getting a high AC is manageable, but so situational so I decided to take Shades advice and drop the AC focus from the build. I still have combat expertise because I wanted improved trip.

Reflex save will be pushing upper 20s low 30's with a lower dex. Although I am building with the hope of getting a +3 dex tome at some point to be able to max the AC. I have pretty much forgone the AC route and just going the route of UMD-Barbarian. My reflex save verses spells is solid from the dwarf +5 vs spells.

Diplomacy is more for flavor. I will be partying with a more of a dedicated tank, so my diplomacy plus his intimidate will be nice.

[tihocan]

Ok cool I'd max OL before diplo though. You never know if you're going to send that mob over to a squishy instead of your friendly tank