Dungeons and Dwarves Online.

[The_Phenx]

You list off a number of enhancements.

Alright... you see a lot of Fighters built around throwing weapons? Does it sound like a winning propoisition? Honestly?

You list off a few two weapon fighting builds and those are nice... but the minimal offensive benefit is overshadowed by the massive defensive and tactical bonuses the dwarf brings to the table.


In essence what your argument is is that if we were fighting and the only weapons available were halfling racial restricted, dwarves would not be superior (maybe) fighting in those circumstances, against a halfling, in a thrown weapon contest, under the light of the full moon in october while balancing on a fencepost.

Otherwise, yeah, pound for pound the dwarf owns the field hands down.

\

BAH... not entirely.

Halfling's my favorite

#1 Can heal themselves via dragonmarks

#2 +1 to hit +1 to ac

#3 Halfling saves enhancements

Lil guys are more survivable which offsets the extra hit points of a dwarf.

Plus we dont run like we got a... nevermind.

Anyone whos played against my fighter knows... silly dwarves.

[parvo]

I've been thinking about playing a fighter...or a paladin... or a ranger... or a barbarian.... and I've been thinking about what race I should play.

I've been sitting here thinking "Why ever play any of these classes other than as a dwarf?"

In fact, come to think of it... why play much ANY class with the exception of Dwarf or Drow...

Well... honestly, why?

Drow are excellent for any caster, and rogue as well.

Dwarves have the combatant cvlasses sealed up nice and tight, no one can even touch them in effectiveness.

Your run of the mill dwarf fighter has more hitpoints, better saves, better combat bonuses (trip/stunning blow, etc), deals more damage, is more accurate than any other race.

The dwearf simply does it better on all levels... and not just for fighters... but for roughly HALF THE CLASSES in the game...

I don't want to roll a Dwarf...but I have to ask myself... why gimp myself?

Seriously... what should I do? Roll a human? Sure bub... How about a Warforge? That'll go great with our local Cleric. Elf? Halfling? See my response to rolling a human.

So Dwarves are OVERWHELMINGLY superior in all martial fields. But... it still doesn't work out.

Do Elves...whose race is largely devoted to magic recieve anywhere near the same kind of bonuses Dwarves do? Warforged get some great perks...but they were literally manufactured for war and they STILL are found wanting by comparison.


So, I'm about to return to another handy session of Dungeons and Dwarves Online... I'd like to see someone provide a single good reason to play anything melee other than a Dwarf. No, personal preference doesn't count. I'd like to see what people come up with.

Not to worry. It will be D.O.O. soon enough...

[Westerner]

GO warforged, they got a lot of the things going that dwarfs do, but they get a little thing called immunities. sure, dwarfs can get immune to everything that Warforged are, but they would have to take up so many gear spots they would be a little gimped in my opinion.

/signed
Warforged are excellent at taking out beholders, a beastie that strikes fear in the heart of most fleshies.

[Mhykke]

They'd be wrong.

A dwarf barb has
1. +2 greataxe damage
2. +2 greataxe attack
3. 100% Heal ratio
4. Toughness enhancements (if you want)
5. +4 AC vs ogres (who are the highest attack bonus you'll commonly fight)
6. If they want AC, the ability to use Mithral fullplate without spending a feat.

A WF barb has
1. Immunity to some things, most which allow a fort save, making any barb 95% immune
2. Warforged Power Attack enhancement
3. +25% fortification

The biggest weakness of the WF race is that the Power Attack enhancement is such a gimpy idea. It's not togglable on its own, so if you train the enhancement then you'll do more damage in normal-mode quests, but be unable to hit things in elite quests unless you either turn off Power Attack, or get both a bard AND a cleric to keep you buffed.

Meanwhile, dwarf barbs are going along using their +2 axe attack as an excuse to get +4 damage from Power Attack all day long.

Actually, no, they wouldn't be wrong, and the fact that this debate even exists proves the point I was commenting on, the statement that nobody comes close to dwarves in melee.

I don't know what you're talking about, regarding not being able to hit anything, but a well equipped warforged barb should be in the mid 30's on his 1st swing at lvl 16. On my characters, that's more than plenty for the end game elite content.

The heal ratio can come into play....it depends on the warforged. Mine has maxed healer's friend, and many a cleric has said I'm easy to heal. 25% difference in healing? Big whoop....So a cleric's heal that would've healed me for 400 does 300.....Again, this can depend on the warforged you're talking about. One w/ healer's friend isn't hard to heal, at all.

Toughness enhancements....I may be wrong (I don't have toughness feat on my warforge), but I thought warforged also received toughness enhancements?

AC? Well, I was talking about melee in terms of DPS. I was speaking about barbs. AC is irrelevant. My AC on my warforged is in the teens....A +4 to that if only I had been a dwarf vs. giants is irrelevant.

I'm sorry, but to the point that nobody comes close to dwarves in terms of melee, that statement is simply wrong. A warforged can hit harder, period. A warforged is more effective against a pain in the arse mob (beholders) than the dwarf. This isn't to say warforged are better. But do they at least come close, I'd certainly say so.

Dwarves aren't the shining, untouchable melee that some people try to portray them as. And don't think of me as a dwarf hater. I have 2 (used to be 3), and they're great. But I'll show you sick players playing humans, elves, warforged, etc., that clean up in melee, and certainly "come close" to dwarves in terms of melee.

Just b/c someone is ineffective making a human barb., for example, doesn't mean that they failed b/c dwarves are that much better.

[Luthen]

I'm sorry, but to the point that nobody comes close to dwarves in terms of melee, that statement is simply wrong. A warforged can hit harder, period. A warforged is more effective against a pain in the arse mob (beholders) than the dwarf. This isn't to say warforged are better. But do they at least come close, I'd certainly say so.

Dwarves aren't the shining, untouchable melee that some people try to portray them as. And don't think of me as a dwarf hater. I have 2 (used to be 3), and they're great. But I'll show you sick players playing humans, elves, warforged, etc., that clean up in melee, and certainly "come close" to dwarves in terms of melee.

Just b/c someone is ineffective making a human barb., for example, doesn't mean that they failed b/c dwarves are that much better.

I see the overall point of this thread as being that Dwarves are the best race all around, unbalancingly so, compaired to all the other races. Not just melee, not just casting, not just healing. Dwarves have feats, innate abilities and enhancments in every aspect of the game with minimal downside. The other races cannot make the same claim. So stop focusing on the melee aspect of this. It's an all around discussion.

[sigtrent]

Dwarves are the best race in many ways but all the races can make very strong characters. The problem is that dwarves have so many strong options to choose from wtih thier enhanements.

Saves: Tops
AC: Tops
Hit points: Tops
Melee Weapon attack/damage: Tops

Other races have some nice bonuses but they just arn't as nice for your run of the mill characters.

Wargorged make awesome arcane builds due to the self healing, I'd take them over dwarf any day for a wizard. They are also very decent barbarians or tactics fighters.

Humans are pretty good for everything but reallly shine for challenging multi class builds where you want combat and skills and saves etc...

Drow are great for casters and rogues and finesse fighters of various sorts or UMD builds in non UMD classes.

Elves are nice for ranged builds but its just not a common build so its a bit of a waste. They also make great rogues although they pale compared to drow a bit.

Halflings are fine. Healing dragon marks are their new niche. But they also always made decent defense/survivalist characters. If any race could use a boost to give theim a niche it is definately the halflings.

[captain1z]

so I roll a new character......


"halfling" 2 paladin/2 ranger/ 1 rogue


I go to join a group doing Tangleroot on normal and got declined (no biggy, it happens) but then............

The leader sends me a tell (which is nice but not needed) he says "sorry, we need a tank"

Im like shocked ...... because my AC at 5th level is really high & I use a shield. I can heal/self heal .....have a number of other perks but mostly I have a keen axe of goblin bane (1d8 +2d6) and a holy kukri (1d4 + 2d6) both of which work great against hobgoblins.

so I send him back a tell because he doesnt know all that .... so I just say " I can handle TR on normal np"

but I didnt get a response, which was fine cause I didnt expect the 1st one.

I just wonder what makes me a bad tank for TR on Normal:

- 2 ranger levels
- 1 rogue level
- halfling

At any rate, I went to house P took the quest, made the run, killed the rare name in the Hob fort along the way, and soloed TR up to the last 2 parts. I could try the last 2 parts but I would really need to be focused to avoid dying and it was late....... so I called it quites for the night.

I may go in and finish it solo, just on GP, just cause I was a bit insulted and wanna prove, even if just to myself, that I can do it.

seriously - I can fight, heal via wands/scrolls or dragonmark, disable traps, and use magic via wands or scrolls (level 1 scrolls)

I am my own party if need be .................... But Im no Dwarf (so sad!)

[Westerner]

all the races can make very strong characters. The problem is that dwarves have so many strong options to choose from wtih thier enhanements.

Saves: Tops
AC: Tops
Hit points: Tops
Melee Weapon attack/damage: Tops

Nice overall racial summary, sigtrent.

Toughness enhancements are a great reason to go dwarf, and saves are useful in a great many builds.

I like Drow melee enhancements better for TWF due to the rapier's crit factor edge over dwarven axe. Non-racial scimitars and picks can also rival the d-axe.
Greataxes are indeed tops with THF.

I wouldn't put AC enhancements in the same tier as the other 3, what with AC stock being depressed currently. But situationally useful on an AC build.

[Mhykke]

I see the overall point of this thread as being that Dwarves are the best race all around, unbalancingly so, compaired to all the other races. Not just melee, not just casting, not just healing. Dwarves have feats, innate abilities and enhancments in every aspect of the game with minimal downside. The other races cannot make the same claim. So stop focusing on the melee aspect of this. It's an all around discussion.

Please forgive me for focusing on the melee aspect. I didn't mean to derail the OP so badly. I guess this quote in the OP really threw me for a loop:

I'd like to see someone provide a single good reason to play anything melee other than a Dwarf.

/sarcasm off