Human Versatility: Make it A Toggle?

[villainsimple]

It would be interesting if we could adjust the human versatility line to be toggles instead of clicks.

The values of the set would be adjusted from 1/2/3/4 to 2/4/6, and the bonuses would be reduced to 1/2/3. These toggles would be independant of one another, so the character could have a bonus to saves OR a bonus to attack OR a bonus to damage and so forth.

This would make Human Versatility Valuable in a variety of situations while still not being overpowering in comparison to other races abilities. A dwarf, for example, could get +2 to Attack AND Damage with Axes, whereas a human would have to choose between attack or damage, and so forth.

[Tanka]

No.

Everyone would pick the Skills portion, plain and simple.

It'd be a free stacking Skill Focus for all skills.

Anyone with UMD or anyone with a splash of rogue would all be Human just for the boost.

[Vardak]

HV used to be always on as you suggest, it was nerfed long ago. Personally I like the suggestion.

[villainsimple]

No.

Everyone would pick the Skills portion, plain and simple.

It'd be a free stacking Skill Focus for all skills.

Anyone with UMD or anyone with a splash of rogue would all be Human just for the boost.

A +3 bonus to all skills in exchange for 12 Action Points?

Doesn't really sound THAT unbalancing...

I mean currently you can get a +5 with a click if you really want to. I mean hell.

This reduces the overall effectiveness of the enhancement while taking out the hassle of it.

[villainsimple]

No.

Everyone would pick the Skills portion, plain and simple.

It'd be a free stacking Skill Focus for all skills.

Anyone with UMD or anyone with a splash of rogue would all be Human just for the boost.

Further, not everyone would go for skills.

A human barbarian may opt for Damage, a Human Cleric may opt for AC, a human Rogue may in fact opt for Attack Bonus to favor their sneak attacks..

[Tanka]

Five times, 20 seconds each time versus on all the time? Gee, yeah, nobody would want that, would they?

A Human Barb has better things to take than HV. A Human Cleric has better things to take than HV. A Human Rogue won't be taking the to-hit boost because, hey, an extra +3 to Spot/Search/Disable/Open/UMD! A Human Wizard has better things to take than HV.

Unless the Human has UMD or is a rogue splash build, they won't take HV, because they have better things to take.

Go back to pre-HV change. Every Human build with a rogue splash or UMD had HV. Period.

[villainsimple]

Five times, 20 seconds each time versus on all the time? Gee, yeah, nobody would want that, would they?

A Human Barb has better things to take than HV. A Human Cleric has better things to take than HV. A Human Rogue won't be taking the to-hit boost because, hey, an extra +3 to Spot/Search/Disable/Open/UMD! A Human Wizard has better things to take than HV.

Unless the Human has UMD or is a rogue splash build, they won't take HV, because they have better things to take.

Go back to pre-HV change. Every Human build with a rogue splash or UMD had HV. Period.

With those kinds of psychic powers you should consider playing the Lottery more often... and ease up a bit on the game design. I feel it isn't your forte.



The Barbarian/Fighter/Paladin would take it and leave Damage on most of the time... but would promptly ramp up his AC if he were tanking...or boost his saves if he were fighting the beholder, or ramp up his Attack Bonus if he were fighting Scorps.

I believe there should be more options for Casters, certainly... such as a decrease in Spell Point cost for spells, or an Increase in Spell DC, or Caster Level? Who knows... But even still, the Saves/Skills portion would still be terribly useful, yes in part for UMD.

But even then a +3 bonus isn't going to blow it up the world.

[Tanka]

A +3 bonus means I never fail a Heal scroll, instead of having to roll a 4 or better. I'd say that's a pretty significant benefit that any UMD user would be a fool to pass up.

It's unbalancing.

[villainsimple]

A +3 bonus means I never fail a Heal scroll, instead of having to roll a 4 or better. I'd say that's a pretty significant benefit that any UMD user would be a fool to pass up.

It's unbalancing.

They'd be a fool to pass up building their character just like how you built yours? because that's what would be required.... and you'd still fail your scrolls, just less often.

[Tanka]

They'd be a fool to pass up building their character just like how you built yours? because that's what would be required.... and you'd still fail your scrolls, just less often.

A blanket +3 would mean I'd have to roll a 1. Which means I'd never fail, because a 1 on a skill check is not an auto-failure.

And, no, I don't expect people to all take HV: Skills under your suggested change. However, they'd be foolish to not take HV: Skills if it offered an on-all-the-time-stacking-+3-bonus-to-all-skills. It'd become the norm rather than the exception.

[villainsimple]

A blanket +3 would mean I'd have to roll a 1. Which means I'd never fail, because a 1 on a skill check is not an auto-failure.

And, no, I don't expect people to all take HV: Skills under your suggested change. However, they'd be foolish to not take HV: Skills if it offered an on-all-the-time-stacking-+3-bonus-to-all-skills. It'd become the norm rather than the exception.

You mean sort of like Human Adaptibility is picked up by legions of humans?

How about Dwarven Toughness if they have the Feat?

And Dwarven axe Mastery? i'm pretty sure that's rather popular too.



You're griping about humans having an attractive Enhancement line.

I mean honestly...in what universe are humans considered OVERPOWERED in comparison to say...dwarves, who you are so vehemently defending as being not broken?

Dwarves with their innumerable useful Enhancements... if not outright overpowered... that's all square with you.

Humans get an enhancement of +3 that can't even be used simultaneously as other buffs (such as dwarven axe mastery) and you attack it REPEATEDLY. In fact your first word was "No".

Like I said, I'm smelling sincere bias here.

[Vardak]

As I said, I'm all for the change back to an always on HV enhancement. You should understand though, any skills based character would be kinda nutty not to take your proposed enhancement line. Toggle on skills, equip racial weapon, toggle on + to attack, failing saves?, toggle on saves.

No, I argued passionately against the HV nerf many months ago. But I adapted and overcame and still have no chance to fail a heal... haven't seen any lvl 8 scrolls yet... but expect I won't need to worry about failing those much either, so I suppose a change back at this point would be a nerf to my current build.

[villainsimple]

It would be a useful Enhancement line, I don't disagree... but the true heart of its beauty is that it really represents the essence of human versatility... being able to switch from being resilient, to handy with a blade, to handy with a wand and back again.

I believe this idea would seriously benefit humans.

[WillStone]

Personally, I really like HV the way it is, it does add a great deal of compatability
to many classes. On my human cleric for example, when the going gets tough
and she has to fight the +5 to attack really helps (18 str), the saves are great
when u have to run thru that failed trap, skills for the shrine, boosting UMD to
22 (only 9 points in UMD) or the ac boost is like a short term combat expertise.

Yes sure making the boost toggleable would be good for some, but personally
I would rather have the full +5 to a wide range of skills if even only for 20 seconds.

The only thing I WOULD like to see is additional HV enhancements for more boosts
just like the class boosts grant.

Anyhow just my 2 cents worth-

[Zuldar]

Well villiansimple, at first glance I was against this idea. But then considering dwarves, I've come to a conclusion that all races should have something unique to lend flavor and perhaps balance the large amount of bias towards dwarves.

So overall, I think I actually like this idea, as long as only one could be turned on at a time of course.

[villainsimple]

Well villiansimple, at first glance I was against this idea. But then considering dwarves, I've come to a conclusion that all races should have something unique to lend flavor and perhaps balance the large amount of bias towards dwarves.

So overall, I think I actually like this idea, as long as only one could be turned on at a time of course.

See, and that's the major part of the idea... enhancing the FLAVOR of the Race...

Dwarves and Warforged clearly have a physical combat flavor... the Flavor of Humans should be one of adapatibility... making this toggle would allow humans to adapt to the situation more readily, while still having a reasonably potent buff on hand as a rule.

[Cold_Stele]

How about Dwarven Toughness if they have the Feat?

And Dwarven axe Mastery? i'm pretty sure that's rather popular too.

/Signed

It'd be wonderful to have a DDo where very new min/max character wasn't a Dwarf or a Drow.

Go to the melee forums - try to find optimized builds (Pally and Ranger included) that aren't Dwarves!

Anything to bring some (Human) Versatility into this game can only be a good thing!

Dwarves and Warforged clearly have a physical combat flavor... the Flavor of Humans should be one of adapatibility...

I'm pretty sure from my history classes that Humans are pretty much into physical combat too - we've had, what? 12,000 years of more or less constant warfare now?

You should understand though, any skills based character would be kinda nutty not to take your proposed enhancement line. Toggle on skills, equip racial weapon, toggle on + to attack, failing saves?, toggle on saves.

At least Humans would have to choose which they wanted - if they spend the AP Dwarves can get the Will saves, HP and Axe Attack and Damage on all the time.

[GwenJynx]

Its definetly an interesting idea and way more fun then boosts but possibly a bit overpowered.

Maybe as a 4/6 +1/+2 enhancement.

[Zuldar]

Its definetly an interesting idea and way more fun then boosts but possibly a bit overpowered.

Maybe as a 4/6 +1/+2 enhancement.

That would be a reasonable amount. Although maybe the damage should be +2/+4, otherwise it would probably never be used compared to ac or saves. That would make it about as powerful as weapon specialization and greater weapon specialization respectively.

Edit: New thought, if it we're made so that you could not have a toggle on at the same time you used a class related action boost would that help with the overpoweredness of it?

[Arnya]

Why speculate whether or not people would pick up the skill...

Why not just look how many HV builds are now pushing up daisies..

I had 3

They all died due to endgame gimpiness after the change to HV