New Harder Un-Disableable Traps

[Hvymetal]

So what your saying is you shouldn't be able to jump over traps. keep the new high DCs and make them unavoidable.

No, what he is saying is that gear is Elite so all one needs to do to truely be Elite is visit a website......

[Cedrica-the-Bard]

No, what he is saying is that gear is Elite so all one needs to do to truely be Elite is visit a website......

hehehe, good one!

[Sutek]

No, what he is saying is that gear is Elite so all one needs to do to truely be Elite is visit a website......

/snicker

[Zenix_Leviticus]

I think this is moving in the direction of 'needing' a certain build for a good number
of quests. I think that is a bad move no matter what class it is.

The player base is getting smaller all of the time. The last thing you need is to
make it so it is harder to find the people needed for a quest.

I do have a couple of real numbers for you guys.

VoN 4 Elite last Saturday
Spike Trap on the right where the floor breaks away - 119 to 134 dmg per hit to everyone in our group
Blade Traps on left going up the spiral - 165 points of damage

I can't actually tell you the numbers from here because 4 of the 6 of our level 15 run were dead.
I can tell you that the sorc died 3 times in the acid and fire traps on the final run. The cleric was
casting heal on himself after every fire & acid trap.

If we had stayed together and not tried to run it like it was a speed run on normal, we would have
faired better. HOWEVER, this was a quest that was 3 level BELOW us even on elite.


Later on the same day:

I watched a Rogue (don't know his specific stats) die so many times in the crucible that he had to leave
the quest to repair all of his broken armor to continue. The agility room trap was murdering him time and
time again. We only had the difficulty set to hard. It took us longer to get that one horn than it did to
complete the entire quest.


This whole thing seems a little extreme to me. I am all for a challenge, but I also want a playable game.

[Vormaerin]

The jump in DCs on hard is especially annoying. Even if you grant that elite should somehow only belong to twinked min/max characters run by twitch gamers who memorize the quests (which I don't, but whatever), its still too much of a ramp up on hard. Gwylan's Hard with 36 DCs? Normal is a little too easy generally and hard is usually where I have the most fun (elite could be really wonky even before this, imho). A reasonable rogue build that is expected to do more than just contribute minimally between traps isn't going to easily make 36 DC trap checks at lvl 8 or so where the quest is rated. Is it really reasonable to have more than ~+20 as a Ref save at that point?

[Zenako]

gonna concur and reiterate.

Damage uping, fine. Make them hurt. It was always kinda annoying to have a party just run through the trap since it was "easier" than waiting 10 seconds to have it taken down.

However, upping the DCs for saving against the traps needs to be revisited. Am I an elite trap meister, no, but I am pretty darn good at it. Did the old Cabal on Normal, but did not twink the build for Elite. Standing trap saves around 30, with extra buffs and boosts can get that up a bit more. I should not be walking into a low/mid level quest on elite and expecting to fail reflex saves versus traps over half the time. That is poor game design. I WOULD expect to have an issue with high level quests on elite. That is not the issue here.

Something about how they bumped the DC's did not scale appropriately. I find it basically stupid that a 1st level quest is requiring a DC30 save. It is basically telling people, that some parts of quests are no longer intended to be played by characters who would get any experience for that quest. Lets twink up a 3rd level toon. 22 DEX (+6), Rogue (+4), RR Resistence Item (+2), some morale bonus (+1), a couple of Points from Enhancements (+2) and trap Sense 1 (+1). That is +16, which means you still only have a 1/3 chance of saving, or you will die. And you must often make mulitple saves to get past most trap spots. So even a highly twinked build would have little to no chance at reasonable levels of accomplishing the task. Something was not figured out correctly.

[Impaqt]

I think this is moving in the direction of 'needing' a certain build for a good number
of quests. I think that is a bad move no matter what class it is.

The player base is getting smaller all of the time. The last thing you need is to
make it so it is harder to find the people needed for a quest.

THe issue isnt "Needed" a certain class (In this case Rogue). Its about that "Needed" class still not having the Reflex to be able to DO what they are "Needed" for....

My deathdealer build can buff her Reflex to up around 40...... A VERY respectable number....... Or at least it used to be..... But because I focused on Being able to Kill stuff, She now has an issue with doing "Rogue" Stuff..... I spent the Morning Buffing her HP's Up.... THis is my original Death Dealer that started witha 10 CON.... 160-190 Hit Points was never a major issue.. I KNOW how to control my aggro quite well...

Now, a Toughness feat, a Minos Legent, and a CON Tome later shes sitting at 248 and will get up to 257 when I hit L16.... Hopefull that will afford me a little leeway with all the traps I'm going to continue to fail the Reflex save on.....

If not, She'll be shelved until these trap DC's get in line or I reroll her and splash Paly levels for the Save boost....

Right now, thats the ONLY way to make these saves... Paly Splashed Rogues.....

As for Player base.... You havent been playing lowbies lately have you? THe harbor is full of em... The marketing/Reviews on this mod has done wonders..... Its quite refreshing.

[Aladon]

You realise that even tho your playing a sorcerer with only 100 hp...

Nice troll.

100 hp's on a leet sorc. Hehehe. Good one.

Best,

Aladon

[Impaqt]

I didn't miss the point at all.
You realise that even tho your playing a sorcerer with only 100 hp, and the trap does 150 dmg on a failed save -

Who Still Outkills your 4000 HP Barbarian by about 8:1 Ratio...

[MrWizard]

Does anynoe have a combat log that tells what the actual fire/electricity damage was and what the save was?

To me it seems like 80 some hit points for a 9th level rogue plus 20-point resists plus 60 points of protection from a potion plus some healing potions and fire potion refills should be suficent. That's 140 points of damage that the trap would have to do to take the charcter out. A 9th level Ranger should have Evasion and his own protections/resists and almost 20 more hit points than the rogue.

Is it really that much? And isn't there a spot in the fire tunnel at the halfway point that's "safe?"

I'm just curious what the actual damage is.

goptta runit with my rogue, but I have been getting 'saved' damage of 70-95 when hit by elite traps in the 8-11 range. So that would be 140-almost 200 a hit. Quite a lot if a squishie at 7-11 level.

[Zenix_Leviticus]

THe issue isnt "Needed" a certain class (In this case Rogue). Its about that "Needed" class still not having the Reflex to be able to DO what they are "Needed" for....

My deathdealer build can buff her Reflex to up around 40...... A VERY respectable number....... Or at least it used to be..... But because I focused on Being able to Kill stuff, She now has an issue with doing "Rogue" Stuff..... I spent the Morning Buffing her HP's Up.... THis is my original Death Dealer that started witha 10 CON.... 160-190 Hit Points was never a major issue.. I KNOW how to control my aggro quite well...

Now, a Toughness feat, a Minos Legent, and a CON Tome later shes sitting at 248 and will get up to 257 when I hit L16.... Hopefull that will afford me a little leeway with all the traps I'm going to continue to fail the Reflex save on.....

If not, She'll be shelved until these trap DC's get in line or I reroll her and splash Paly levels for the Save boost....

Right now, thats the ONLY way to make these saves... Paly Splashed Rogues.....

As for Player base.... You havent been playing lowbies lately have you? THe harbor is full of em... The marketing/Reviews on this mod has done wonders..... Its quite refreshing.

I have two rogues myself. One of them a 14th level pure drow rogue that could disable anything, but could not search
the Elite Cabal Trap. I have another that is 2 rogue/12 wizard that can buff all saves above 25.... My multi class only
has evasion and is now almost junk on anything other than normal quests. My pure rogue is only marginal better because
of the improved evasion. I understand the issue of not being able to do the job they are supposed to be good at.

That was actually my point, because now you will be required to have a twinked out trap monkey build to get the party
through these high level traps. You always have the option of sending the highest hp character through with a res ring
and have the cleric follow him. That just seems insane to me. It seems that anyone that has less than 200 hp or 40+
reflex saves is pretty much dead in elite traps.

This all gets back to my original statement that it seems as if the devs want you to take a highly specialized trap monkey
build to get through elite quests with traps. All other rogues will most likely die.



I designed my pure rogue to take advantage of the dps enhancements, but still be extremely reliable at disabling high
level traps. My multiclass actually has even better stats for traps because of the 32 int. Neither one will matter because
they don't have enough hp to even take one hit from a failed save from elite traps now.


All of this and I still haven't even talked about how lame the non-disableable traps are.


Didn't I read somewhere a couple of mods ago that the devs felt that disarming traps should NOT be a main focus
of the game? (I may be wrong but I thought I read this)

[redoubt]

Incorrect about base saves. Rangers and rogues both have the "good" progression for Reflex saves. The only reason why a Ranger/Rogue multiclass will have a better Reflex save is that the hybrid gets the +2 "good" bonus at 1st level two times, since save modifiers are added together from all classes.

Good: +2 at level one, +1 at every even level
Bad: +0 at level one, +1 every three levels

There are no other save progressions. Each class has either the Good or Bad progression in a given save.

Now, that being said...a group of average players should be able to complete a quest on elite when they are two levels higher than the quest on normal (level 5 quest on elite complete-able by level 7 characters). Maybe it should be harder than doing it at level 5 on normal, but a trap in a level one quest on elite with a required save of DC 30 is insane no matter how you slice it.

Thank you for an intelligent and considered response as opposed to the person above you. I did not realize that was why my multiclass had a higher base save.

Other than that, I think we are in agreement.

To the other guy... you are right... my ranger rogue can't cut the new traps. Does it make sense that a level 14 ranger/rogue can't pass the trap save on a level 9 quest? The toon is not gimped. And, you should not have to be a specific race, nor should you have to have 100% of a given line of enhancements/feats to complete a quest. Please read, think and provide useful commentary rather than simply attempting to flame someone. What we are saying is that a well built trapsmith (not a 100%min/max) should be able to hang in those kinds of traps--with ease! Thank you.

[redoubt]

I didn't miss the point at all.

All I see here is non-elite players complaining they can't do elite quests anymore.
That or people who got this idea in there head they are elite but aren't even close getting confused and thinking somethings wrong.

If your elite - you have absolutely no trouble at all brining 100 potions of everytype on any quests, even low lvl ones - your rich you can afford it. Not only that your able to form parties and ensure before the trap that everyone has the exact perfect spells to get thru any obstacles along the way.
If your elite - you have absolutely no trouble at all taking a hit from an elite trap. No matter what the save DC. You realise that even tho your playing a sorcerer with only 100 hp, and the trap does 150 dmg on a failed save - you can survive. You know exactly what damage type it does, you know exactly how to get by it getting hit only once, and you know exactly how to get nearly 90 bonus hitpoints just from buffs to survive the trip.
If your elite, your not here complaining about traps being too hard. Your here asking for the devs to make traps even harder.

No non-disableable traps are NOT of any concern to the truely elite players.

For the ones that can be disabled? heh, well maybe now rogues will be worth taking on the odd elite quest, tho i doubt it.

I do understand why non-elite players want to beat these quests on elite- favor.. And its unfortunate they put that system in the way they did.. But now there is about 2675 favor in the game, that means you can get well over the 1750 needed for the best reward just by doing quests on hard only.

Please contact Shade@mmobay.com for all your elite player needs.



P.S. Was saying, "If your elite - " a freudian slip? As in your "elite toon" that you bought? Or did you mean "If you are" or "If you're". Just curious cause I know I'm not that leet and I certainly have no business discussing the game and could use the help.

[Vormaerin]

To the other guy... you are right... my ranger rogue can't cut the new traps. Does it make sense that a level 14 ranger/rogue can't pass the trap save on a level 9 quest? The toon is not gimped. And, you should not have to be a specific race, nor should you have to have 100% of a given line of enhancements/feats to complete a quest. Please read, think and provide useful commentary rather than simply attempting to flame someone. What we are saying is that a well built trapsmith (not a 100%min/max) should be able to hang in those kinds of traps--with ease! Thank you.

I full agree with you. My post was snide, but the snideness was directed at the situation not at you. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear. I don't support the level of DCs that are currently in the game, especially on hard which should be the bread and butter level for experienced players. But making it so your character can't pass a lvl 8 quest trap check (Gwylan's Hard) more than 75% of the time is not cool.

I don't accept Shade's definition of elite being only for 'twinked, min/maxed toons run by quest memorizing twitchers', but at least you can make an argument that elite isn't for ordinary characters. Making such an argument for hard is preposterous, imho.

[Kargon]

Ouch.. Good one.. Course, Ihave the "Tactic" for that one figured out....

Let a UMDer/Cleric go First and get taken out by the first trap..
Throw em a Res so they can run through the rest dead and take the res at the bottom.
Raise Others as they come to the end.. Dead.....

Sweet "Tactic" eh?

Kargon makes it to the bottom on a sorcermermer, with just haste, with only get hit once, by very last trap. and kargon too lazy to remove feathermafall itamem. Just need to memorimize silly trap if are going do it elite (or have one rezzermer who can memorimize it )

[Borrigain]

Kargon makes it to the bottom on a sorcermermer, with just haste, with only get hit once, by very last trap. and kargon too lazy to remove feathermafall itamem. Just need to memorimize silly trap if are going do it elite (or have one rezzermer who can memorimize it )

Kargon, have you tried facemabashing trap yet?



borr.

[PhoenixRajoNight]

I didn't miss the point at all.

All I see here is non-elite players complaining they can't do elite quests anymore.
That or people who got this idea in there head they are elite but aren't even close getting confused and thinking somethings wrong.

If your elite - you have absolutely no trouble at all brining 100 potions of everytype on any quests, even low lvl ones - your rich you can afford it. Not only that your able to form parties and ensure before the trap that everyone has the exact perfect spells to get thru any obstacles along the way.
If your elite - you have absolutely no trouble at all taking a hit from an elite trap. No matter what the save DC. You realise that even tho your playing a sorcerer with only 100 hp, and the trap does 150 dmg on a failed save - you can survive. You know exactly what damage type it does, you know exactly how to get by it getting hit only once, and you know exactly how to get nearly 90 bonus hitpoints just from buffs to survive the trip.
If your elite, your not here complaining about traps being too hard. Your here asking for the devs to make traps even harder.

No non-disableable traps are NOT of any concern to the truely elite players.

For the ones that can be disabled? heh, well maybe now rogues will be worth taking on the odd elite quest, tho i doubt it.

I do understand why non-elite players want to beat these quests on elite- favor.. And its unfortunate they put that system in the way they did.. But now there is about 2675 favor in the game, that means you can get well over the 1750 needed for the best reward just by doing quests on hard only.

This ELITE thing you got going in your head is a bunch of bollucks.

[PhoenixRajoNight]

I think this is moving in the direction of 'needing' a certain build for a good number
of quests. I think that is a bad move no matter what class it is.

The player base is getting smaller all of the time. The last thing you need is to
make it so it is harder to find the people needed for a quest.

I do have a couple of real numbers for you guys.

VoN 4 Elite last Saturday
Spike Trap on the right where the floor breaks away - 119 to 134 dmg per hit to everyone in our group
Blade Traps on left going up the spiral - 165 points of damage

I can't actually tell you the numbers from here because 4 of the 6 of our level 15 run were dead.
I can tell you that the sorc died 3 times in the acid and fire traps on the final run. The cleric was
casting heal on himself after every fire & acid trap.

If we had stayed together and not tried to run it like it was a speed run on normal, we would have
faired better. HOWEVER, this was a quest that was 3 level BELOW us even on elite.


Later on the same day:

I watched a Rogue (don't know his specific stats) die so many times in the crucible that he had to leave
the quest to repair all of his broken armor to continue. The agility room trap was murdering him time and
time again. We only had the difficulty set to hard. It took us longer to get that one horn than it did to
complete the entire quest.


This whole thing seems a little extreme to me. I am all for a challenge, but I also want a playable game.

Needing classes, is all over the place, the bottom line this is getting to is even the needed class (rogue) that has taken all the stuff required to get passed these traps cant even do it, so if a rogue cant even do it, why bother with one at all?

[Shade]

Nice troll.

100 hp's on a leet sorc. Hehehe. Good one.

Best,

Aladon

Troll?
The quest is question was like a lvl8 quest.. 100 hp at lvl8 is fairly elite.

[Uska]

But that's what you don't seem to understand, my friend....ELITE mode IS optional...If you can do it, then go do it...if not then don't try!

I think you just want to argue....If your at level ie 9 on a level7 elite quest it should be possible to do the quest not easy but possible.The damage and the dc on traps needed to be raised but I think they went to far.