New Harder Un-Disableable Traps

[PhoenixRajoNight]

You can chalk it up to what ever you want. You still don't know. Do you even know if traps have levels that affect dmg and DC in this code system? But if it makes you happy to insult the dev team, I'm sure they've got thick enough skin to deal with it.

I said most likely what happened was they added some scaling multipliers, and didnt go in and change the traps themselves. And if you actually read the satement, I'm basically saying its a developement mistake that happens. This will happen alot with ne game youll see a quickfix thrown in, instead of a more indepth fix, to be able to move on to the next step, as far as me mentioning laziness right out, I'm sorry but everyone and every company has laziness of some sort. Sometimes you can get away with it and things work and none ar the wiser. When it doesnt work however its different.

Yes I dont word my statements in the nicest way, but neither did my mom when she used to critique my essays/book reports for school. Honestly I dont change the way I state things because its a step thats not on my top priority to change about myself, and it's not my fault everyone takes things so personally. Good example is a group of friends that I had and we all used to cus up a storm, never really said them in a derogitory manner and we'd be strolling along and get tr*lled by someone that cant mind their own business saying "oh thats so inapropriate." Peeps give too much power to words, and if theyd get over it they would stop having as much impact, and peeps would have less stress.

[winsom]

(Also posted in Rogue forum) My rogue is Human 12 Rogue/3 Pally
The only thing that confused me was that with GH, on my Stats screen it said my Reflex save was 35. So I thought it would be 39 in a trap due to those trap AP's, but it said 43 in the combat log. Where did that extra 4 come from???

Every 3 rogue levels, starting at 3rd, gives is +1 saves bonus vs traps.

Rogue 2 still gives Evasion which is the key ability necessary for traps such as these.

Key ability yes, but not always good enough without the enhanced trap save bonuses that higher level rogues can stack on.

My bard/rogue has 4 rogue levels for better trap survivability. Rogue 3rd is +1 on traps saves. Rogue 4th enhancement gives +2 to traps saves. Uncanny Dodge is another +4 to the Reflex save.

My character only has ~140 hit points and its not easy to add significantly more, or I would have done so. DEX was 22 or 24 and her resist item +3, plus bonuses like haste and greater heroism. Some traps would kill her when she fails 2 or 3 saves too quickly in a row. Improved Evasion would have made all the difference, but my character will never have that. DEX is 26 now and her traps and reflex saves are a few points higher before boosting with Uncanny Dodge. She is much better off than her build was with only 2 rogue levels.

Based on reading about these higher level trap DCs, my build is probably now dead-on-arrival for a lot of HARD traps, and maybe all Elite traps. I can't make DC 40ish saves very often and 1 failed save of over 150 damage will certainly kill her

I am in favor of elite being extremely tough, and perhaps nearly impossible for non-improved evasion character to survive the trap. That is elite. Fine. But hard too ? Should hard be killer as well?

[Vormaerin]

Yes I dont word my statements in the nicest way, but neither did my mom when she used to critique my essays/book reports for school.

Well, not my problem if you don't feel it worth your time to be polite to others. Just don't be surprised when no one gives a rat's behind about what you say and you end up on lots of /ignore lists. Its not like anyone has a reason to care what you think if you show you don't care enough to bother being respectful.

I really love the "I'm just a jerk by nature; it shouldn't bother you" arguments. And, guess what, you are right. It doesn't. Its just one less forum poster's posts to read. Its actually a benefit, really.

/ignore.

[Blackwatch]

Here's my worry...

Was this done as "rogue love" to make rogues more desirable by other groups?

If so, it has severely screwed up and gone in the wrong direction, from what I can gather...


Now, a rogue is going to have to specialize his build so heavily that it is virtually useless in all other endeavors. ie. All feats and enhancements focused on traps/disarm/evade/reflex save.

In the end, this rogue is (in the eyes of most of their group) going to be following everyone around for 90% doing nothing, just so they can avoid a tiny problem in the middle or end of it all.


Wow, talk about making rogues loved again... SUCCESS!!!

Yup, great design work there.

Makes me wonder about Cabal Elite now... is the reflex save DC now so high that a rogue can only choose whether to search/disarm it but not survive the trap save? or retrain to survive the reflex save, but now not have the skills for the search/disarm?

Anyone tested it yet?

[Staedtler]

You know that story about a guy who finds a magic item that grants him wishes? It turns out everything he wishes for has a horrible and ironic flaw to it.

I wish rogues got more love

[honkuimushi]

Here's my worry...



Makes me wonder about Cabal Elite now... is the reflex save DC now so high that a rogue can only choose whether to search/disarm it but not survive the trap save? or retrain to survive the reflex save, but now not have the skills for the search/disarm?

Anyone tested it yet?

Actually, several people mentioned that the Cabal trap does 0 damage, even on a failed save, on hard and elite now.

You know that story about a guy who finds a magic item that grants him wishes? It turns out everything he wishes for has a horrible and ironic flaw to it.

Ah yes, The Monkey's Paw. A classic. but it also goes back to "Be careful what you wish for-- you just might get it."

[vainangel]

I think this will stop people from taking just a feew lvl's or this and that and really think about all stats.

For some I can see the complaint. You spent weeks and/or months tweaking a gimped build slanted toward STR and CON [sometimes DEX and INT], leaving other stas twisting in the wind making a money with a strong arm and only a few lvl's of any class.

I think the traps I have encountered are harder and deadly. You need a Ranger or Rouge just to see them now. You need to buff just to detect them sometimes. I think this reflects why we have rouges in PnP a bit more. Seems to be diesigned to prevent people from just taking the 4th lVl in Rouge and then splashing on whatever class to min/max your stats as you trade feats and enhacements.

Yeah.

It is just me talking, but I like how it seems the developers are making it harder to create a 'total independant' character.

[studentx]

I think this will stop people from taking just a feew lvl's or this and that and really think about all stats.

For some I can see the complaint. You spent weeks and/or months tweaking a gimped build slanted toward STR and CON [sometimes DEX and INT], leaving other stas twisting in the wind making a money with a strong arm and only a few lvl's of any class.

I think the traps I have encountered are harder and deadly. You need a Ranger or Rouge just to see them now. You need to buff just to detect them sometimes. I think this reflects why we have rouges in PnP a bit more. Seems to be diesigned to prevent people from just taking the 4th lVl in Rouge and then splashing on whatever class to min/max your stats as you trade feats and enhacements.

Yeah.

It is just me talking, but I like how it seems the developers are making it harder to create a 'total independant' character.

No it doesn't reflect why we have rogues in DnD and Rouges in DDO.

Rogues in DnD can one shot ambush kill trash mobs.
Rogues can bluff their way out of fights.
Pick pockets for useful things like keys.

Rouges are trap monkeys and this change is more deadly for rogues and now forces them to take yet ANOTHER enhancement for traps. Disable Device, way of the mechanic, search, spot, and not improved trap sense and probably a skill boost for those that don't have the top end search/spot/etc great. Remember a rogue doesn't have improved evasion until level 10, that means full damage on a failure which will be more common now with dc 40s and damage in the 75+ range.

Oh and make dead rangers trying to help spot boxes. Rangers needed a bit more gimping. =)

[PhoenixRajoNight]

Well, not my problem if you don't feel it worth your time to be polite to others. Just don't be surprised when no one gives a rat's behind about what you say and you end up on lots of /ignore lists. Its not like anyone has a reason to care what you think if you show you don't care enough to bother being respectful.

I really love the "I'm just a jerk by nature; it shouldn't bother you" arguments. And, guess what, you are right. It doesn't. Its just one less forum poster's posts to read. Its actually a benefit, really.

/ignore.

Oh, and you word things so pleasantly? Many times, not even in reply to me you have said things in a rather nasty way.

[Vormaerin]

I think the traps I have encountered are harder and deadly. You need a Ranger or Rouge just to see them now. You need to buff just to detect them sometimes. I think this reflects why we have rouges in PnP a bit more. Seems to be diesigned to prevent people from just taking the 4th lVl in Rouge and then splashing on whatever class to min/max your stats as you trade feats and enhacements.

The DCs on Spot, Search, Disarm have not changed according to the devs and my experience is that that is true. What has changed is the *save* DC if the trap goes off on you. Which is bad, but not disastrous most of the time. It is really bad in the traps that the rogue has to pass through in order to get to the box.

Regarding splashing, you are completely wrong. This change makes multiclassing *more* likely as only halflings or paladin/rogue multis can get the kind of reflex saves that the game is currently calling for on elite. A pure rogue's main advantage would be improved evasion so that they *might* live through the failed DC, as long as they don't get hit two or three times without getting healed.

[Dark_Helmet]

Actually the GMs of this game do not seem to understand that rule they themselves set. There is no way that Elite quests are 2 levels higher, they are MUCH higher than that. A L3 quest on elite is generally far far harder than a L5 a norm.

Using your words against you: You don't seem to understand what the GMs said.

Basically, it is MUCH harder on elite while the reward level is only 2 levels higher. They did not equate the actual level of the encounters to be only 2 levels higher, just what you get rewarded for.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

You keep saying elite is elite... and I understand your logic... however flawed or skewed it might be.

Here's the question for you.

Should the requirements to complete this quest on elite, require you to be of a level that will receive negligible or no benefits, rewards, exp, etc. from it other than favor?

If so, your point is entirely valid and indisputable.

If that is NOT your opinion, then frankly, you're talking about things beyond your scope.

Thanks.
BW

I think this is the post that the "Elite means Elite" crowd should pay attention to.

Elite should be elite, absolutely agree. But an elite level 1 quest should mean its doable by a group of Elite level 1 people. Or a group of level 3 characters. Not a group of level 10 characters.

[redoubt]

I think this is the post that the "Elite means Elite" crowd should pay attention to.

Elite should be elite, absolutely agree. But an elite level 1 quest should mean its doable by a group of Elite level 1 people. Or a group of level 3 characters. Not a group of level 10 characters.

Agreed. A group of 4 characters of the same level as the stated level of the quest should be able to complete. Notice I did not say it should be easy, just that they should be able to complete it. If you want to say that "hard" is +2 levels and elite is +4 levels, fine. They you would expect to use level 5 characters on a level 1 quest set to elite. But as it is now, a level 1 elite quest is level 3. Level three characters should be able to compelete it as a group.

On the topic of saves and splash rogues. I don't see why you need to be a splash rogue to get enough reflex save (or why only pure rogues should have enough reflex save). Rangers actually get a better base save than rogues do... /shrug.

A level 14 pure rogue gets 9 and a 1 rogue/13 ranger gets 10.

So start with the base reflex save of 10 from the ranger rogue:
10
12 -- 34 dex
4 -- item (could be higher but this should be resonable)
2 -- luck (throughing in a raid item here, or drop this to 1 and wear a +5 resistance item.)
1 -- trap sense (more if pure rogue)
4 -- greater heroism
----
33 reflex save on a level 14 character, with decent gear.

If a character like this cannot make MOST of the saves against a trap (quest level 14 or lower), my opinion says, the system is broken.

[vainangel]

not sure the language used is the kindest....

I do see the points.
I would have to defend that developing SPOT/SEARCH for a ranger is not gimping. Unless you built a ranger with a low INT, like 8....

[Vormaerin]

33 reflex save on a level 14 character, with decent gear.

If a character like this cannot make MOST of the saves against a trap (quest level 14 or lower), my opinion says, the system is broken.

The save on the goodblades elite blade trap is 30. The save on the Gwylan's fire trap on HARD is 36. The high level elite saves are apparently mid to high 40s.

Your guy doesn't cut it. Put in some pally, be a halfling with the ref save enhancements. Then we can talk. Maybe.

[Seneca_Windforge]

Agreed. A group of 4 characters of the same level as the stated level of the quest should be able to complete. Notice I did not say it should be easy, just that they should be able to complete it. If you want to say that "hard" is +2 levels and elite is +4 levels, fine. They you would expect to use level 5 characters on a level 1 quest set to elite. But as it is now, a level 1 elite quest is level 3. Level three characters should be able to compelete it as a group.

On the topic of saves and splash rogues. I don't see why you need to be a splash rogue to get enough reflex save (or why only pure rogues should have enough reflex save). Rangers actually get a better base save than rogues do... /shrug.

A level 14 pure rogue gets 9 and a 1 rogue/13 ranger gets 10.

So start with the base reflex save of 10 from the ranger rogue:
10
12 -- 34 dex
4 -- item (could be higher but this should be resonable)
2 -- luck (throughing in a raid item here, or drop this to 1 and wear a +5 resistance item.)
1 -- trap sense (more if pure rogue)
4 -- greater heroism
----
33 reflex save on a level 14 character, with decent gear.

If a character like this cannot make MOST of the saves against a trap (quest level 14 or lower), my opinion says, the system is broken.

Incorrect about base saves. Rangers and rogues both have the "good" progression for Reflex saves. The only reason why a Ranger/Rogue multiclass will have a better Reflex save is that the hybrid gets the +2 "good" bonus at 1st level two times, since save modifiers are added together from all classes.

Good: +2 at level one, +1 at every even level
Bad: +0 at level one, +1 every three levels

There are no other save progressions. Each class has either the Good or Bad progression in a given save.

Now, that being said...a group of average players should be able to complete a quest on elite when they are two levels higher than the quest on normal (level 5 quest on elite complete-able by level 7 characters). Maybe it should be harder than doing it at level 5 on normal, but a trap in a level one quest on elite with a required save of DC 30 is insane no matter how you slice it.

[winsom]

The Acid, Fire and Spike traps at the start of Hidden in Plain Sight are Reflex DC 34 on HARD

Thats not killer for a high DEX & normal evasion character with buffs and some additional help from resists and/or trap sense saves bonuses. My DEX 26 bard 11/rogue 4 needed to roll a 6. Greater Heroism would reduce that to 4 and Uncanny Dodge to 1.

Damage on a failed save looks to be ~65 to 95, without Improved Evasion.

I'm happy with that. I guess I'll try Elite now. If you don't hear from me, you know what happened to little Kyonna...

8 + 33 failed Reflex on ELITE for ~150 damage from the acid or spikes. 11 + 32 succeeded. I did not test my luck long enough to find the exact number. Having to roll a 9+ for 140+ damage is deadly enough for me not to want to test her Reflexes if there is a higher level rogue around. Perhaps that is the point... Only has 177 HP with Rage Spell up.

[Shade]

I didn't miss the point at all.

All I see here is non-elite players complaining they can't do elite quests anymore.
That or people who got this idea in there head they are elite but aren't even close getting confused and thinking somethings wrong.

If your elite - you have absolutely no trouble at all brining 100 potions of everytype on any quests, even low lvl ones - your rich you can afford it. Not only that your able to form parties and ensure before the trap that everyone has the exact perfect spells to get thru any obstacles along the way.
If your elite - you have absolutely no trouble at all taking a hit from an elite trap. No matter what the save DC. You realise that even tho your playing a sorcerer with only 100 hp, and the trap does 150 dmg on a failed save - you can survive. You know exactly what damage type it does, you know exactly how to get by it getting hit only once, and you know exactly how to get nearly 90 bonus hitpoints just from buffs to survive the trip.
If your elite, your not here complaining about traps being too hard. Your here asking for the devs to make traps even harder.

No non-disableable traps are NOT of any concern to the truely elite players.

For the ones that can be disabled? heh, well maybe now rogues will be worth taking on the odd elite quest, tho i doubt it.

I do understand why non-elite players want to beat these quests on elite- favor.. And its unfortunate they put that system in the way they did.. But now there is about 2675 favor in the game, that means you can get well over the 1750 needed for the best reward just by doing quests on hard only.

[studentx]

I didn't miss the point at all.

All I see here is non-elite players complaining they can't do elite quests anymore.
That or people who got this idea in there head they are elite but aren't even close getting confused and thinking somethings wrong.

If your elite - you have absolutely no trouble at all brining 100 potions of everytype on any quests, even low lvl ones - your rich you can afford it. Not only that your able to form parties and ensure before the trap that everyone has the exact perfect spells to get thru any obstacles along the way.
If your elite - you have absolutely no trouble at all taking a hit from an elite trap. No matter what the save DC. You realise that even tho your playing a sorcerer with only 100 hp, and the trap does 150 dmg on a failed save - you can survive. You know exactly what damage type it does, you know exactly how to get by it getting hit only once, and you know exactly how to get nearly 90 bonus hitpoints just from buffs to survive the trip.
If your elite, your not here complaining about traps being too hard. Your here asking for the devs to make traps even harder.

No non-disableable traps are NOT of any concern to the truely elite players.

For the ones that can be disabled? heh, well maybe now rogues will be worth taking on the odd elite quest, tho i doubt it.

I do understand why non-elite players want to beat these quests on elite- favor.. And its unfortunate they put that system in the way they did.. But now there is about 2675 favor in the game, that means you can get well over the 1750 needed for the best reward just by doing quests on hard only.

So what your saying is you shouldn't be able to jump over traps. keep the new high DCs and make them unavoidable.

[Sutek]

Higher damage = good
Higher DC = bad

The higher damage means that the traps are something to be respected now.

The DCs were fine the way they were. A good evasion build could stand in a trap without too much trouble but a cleric or fighter would be getting anoyed by the small amount of damage that traps used to deal. Now that same trap with the same DC would be a huge problem with the higher damage. The higher DC just means that now the evasion builds won't help in a trap and they have just made rogues even more useless. In order to build a rogue that can do a trap on elite now you MUST severly gimp him in other areas like DPS. We have enough crapy rogues running around thinking that all they are supposed to do is disable traps.

As far as traps that can not be disabled either put a lever in that will disable the trap. ie. evasion type required to run through the trap and pull the lever to turn off the trap. Or return the damage to previous values.