New Harder Un-Disableable Traps

[Aladon]

I imagine that the damage (and, apparently, DC) increases will get lots of discussion here. However, I want to raise one clear problematic unintended consequence of this change.

Traps with no disable option (fire corridor in Scoundrel's Run, Lightning Room in The Pit, etc) suddenly make those quests un-doable at quest level. It's one thing to make traps that can be disabled lethal to add real consequence to ignoring them. But traps that can't be disabled are a permanent, unavoidable element in a dungeon. I would submit that there's almost no way a 9th level party can now complete Scoundrel's Run. Maybe the leetest of the leet, maybe. But an average party? No way.

So I humbly beseech the Dev Gods to take a good look as un-disableable traps and return them to their old levels. It wasn't like both of the above traps weren't hard already.

Best wishes,

Aladon

[Razvan]

Actually you can still complete those quests...on normal
On hard...well, the quests are HARDER to complete...
And of course elite is for the L33T players...as it should have been from the start...

So in my opinion all is fair!

[Club'in]

Those were already some of the toughest traps this side of STK if you're at level. Now they're harder?

[Aladon]

Actually you can still complete those quests...on normal
On hard...well, the quests are HARDER to complete...
And of course elite is for the L33T players...as it should have been from the start...

So in my opinion all is fair!

Two things:

1) Remember what I'm talking about is traps which CANNOT be disabled yet MUST be passed. In such cases, it is possible to make the quest impossible even for leet players. My argument is the Scoundrel's Run fire corridor borders on impossible for a party at quest level, however leet. I suspect other similar situations (like The Pit's lightning room) are the same.

2) Please, try these traps before you comment. They are very different then before.

Aladon

[Razvan]

Two things:

1) Remember what I'm talking about is traps which CANNOT be disabled yet MUST be passed. In such cases, it is possible to make the quest impossible even for leet players. My argument is the Scoundrel's Run fire corridor borders on impossible for a party at quest level, however leet. I suspect other similar situations (like The Pit's lightning room) are the same.

2) Please, try these traps before you comment. They are very different then before.

Aladon

You mean you can't just run through traps anymore?..You know, zerg ahead, get hit by fire, igonre it, pull the lever, get the item, whatever, and then go back through the traps?...You mean you actually have to have some sort of strategy, like a friend to heal you constantly, or you might have to stop refresh your fire prot, heal yourself, you know...take some time to get through it?...OMG...that's tragic!

oh yeah, and nobody said that because a quest on elite is level 9, it is designed to be completed by ANY level 9 character...ELITE is ELITE, and just because it hasn't been implemented the way it is now, from the start, doesn't mean that THIS is the wrong version...Just like the raid loot system, just like the new death penalty system...the game is evolving, is improving and I think we should move with it rather than lag behind crying everytime things get difficult: everyone IS asking for difficult btw.

[Impaqt]

You mean you can't just run through traps anymore?..You know, zerg ahead, get hit by fire, igonre it, pull the lever, get the item, whatever, and then go back through the traps?...You mean you actually have to have some sort of strategy, like a friend to heal you constantly, or you might have to stop refresh your fire prot, heal yourself, you know...take some time to get through it?...OMG...that's tragic!

Have you ever even Run the Scoundrels Run or The Pit?

It is a Requirement of the quest to Run though the Fire in Scoundrels Run...

It Is a Requirement of the quest to stand in the middle of lightning traps WHILE pulling levers in the Pit... (Like 30-40 of em)

We;re not taking about the Zerging 50 HP Barbarians here (Even though theyt will still die) W're talking about Builds that are DESIGNED to do these thing that no longer can.... a well build evasion rogue at level 7-8 SHOULD be able to do the Pits lighnng switches on Eite.... RIght now, I doubt anyone short of a Capped Improved Evasion build will be able to successfully pull that off.... THis is not an "Elite" Optional part of the Pit.... The Object of the room is to simply Pull Levers.....

This is not only a serious issue for Zergers.. Its a serious issue for Rogues even..... Evasion Means Nothng, and witht he Increased Damage, Improved evasion has been gimped as well.....

Please go do some of these quests and test them for yourself before talking trash. Cause thats all your doing.

[Aladon]

Those were already some of the toughest traps this side of STK if you're at level. Now they're harder?

Yes. I was able to do the fire corridor on elite w/ my 300 hp 15th level Dorf ranger w/ 30 pt resists, 120 pt prots, evasion and stopping to heal in the safe spots, barely. A level 9 would have a lot fewer hp's, 20 resists and lower prots. There's no recourse to imp. evasion cause it's lvl 10 (and rogues have far fewer hps, offsetting the benefit). A tank w/ more HP's wouldn't have evasion and wouldn't be able to recast prots as he went. And the corridor is too long for clerics to heal the full distance.

I'm not saying it's completely impossible (tho it might be). But it just doesnt seem to me that a mid-level blah quest in 3 Barrel cove should suddenly become one of the toughest in the game. Like Stealthy Repo, it'll just become a throw away quest to be run once for favor at level cap. Unfortunately, The Pit is a more integral part of many peoples XP progression and favor strategy. If that one is rendered impossible too, that'll be a big loss. And it ain't like The Pit was considered an easy quest to begin with.

All I'm asking is that the level design team take a look at these non-disableable traps (like the ones mentioned in Scoundrel's Run and The Pit) to see whether they're happy with the difficulty or whether the new hyper-difficulty of un-diasbleable traps is an unintended consequence of the general trap damage increase.

Best,

Aladon

[Razvan]

THis is not an "Elite" Optional part of the Pit.... .

But that's what you don't seem to understand, my friend....ELITE mode IS optional...If you can do it, then go do it...if not then don't try!

[Impaqt]

But that's what you don't seem to understand, my friend....ELITE mode IS optional...If you can do it, then go do it...if not then don't try!

it should be Optional.... Not Immpossible without Gimping your rogue.

[rimble]

But that's what you don't seem to understand, my friend....ELITE mode IS optional...If you can do it, then go do it...if not then don't try!

Some quests will become pointless to do on Elite at appropriate levels. Certain quests, and maybe Scoundrel's Run, will just be relegated to no-XP Favor runs to do once you're capped. Certain quests scale really poorly. Historically, quests that have alot of casters become much more difficult on Hard or Elite than other quests, but the quest level still only goes up one level on Hard, and two on Elite. The same thing will happen with quests with these traps in them. Maybe certain quests need to be flagged to scale to higher levels...don't change anything else, but Scoundrel's Run (8th Level on Normal?) would become 10th Level on Hard, and 12th Level on Elite. At least at that point you can still get some XP out of it once you've reached a level where you have a chance of completing it. Again, without that, it just becomes a capped character Favor run.

I'm sure glad I got my 1750 Favor already. They keep talking about 'easing the new player experience', but things don't seem to be panning out that way.

[Albel]

Now I'm interested, I've got to run the pit tonight on my ranger and see if I can still solo it...

[Alavatar]

Now I'm interested, I've got to run the pit tonight on my ranger and see if I can still solo it...

You could solo it on elite? Because that's what they're talking about. Normal should be unaffected, but elite is now nearly impossible. So they say.

[Razvan]

But the idea is that the game should offer something for everyone:

For casual players it has normal mode and hard mode...normal anyone can do, right...and then you get to do hard and test yourself

Elite is like a driving a Viper...it's out there, everyone knows about it...BUT NOT EVERYONE GETS TO DRIVE IT!...Level 9 quest on elite should be nearly impossible for a level 9 char to do...that's why the power gamers will try and most likely do it at level 9, on elite, and the rest of the players will try it later, and do it for favor only.

I mean, just the word "elite" should inspire uberness (for lack of a better word), and you finishing a lev 9 quest on elite, with a party of lev 9 chars or even lower should be an acomplishment, not a daily routine.

As I said, they upped the actual difficulty of these quests too late on hard and elite, but then again I think they did it because at first they knew that making elite mode very hard to acomplish for a lot of players wouldn't be a good idea due to limited content at launch and in the following months.

[MysticRhythms]

Does anynoe have a combat log that tells what the actual fire/electricity damage was and what the save was?

To me it seems like 80 some hit points for a 9th level rogue plus 20-point resists plus 60 points of protection from a potion plus some healing potions and fire potion refills should be suficent. That's 140 points of damage that the trap would have to do to take the charcter out. A 9th level Ranger should have Evasion and his own protections/resists and almost 20 more hit points than the rogue.

Is it really that much? And isn't there a spot in the fire tunnel at the halfway point that's "safe?"

I'm just curious what the actual damage is.

[Yukiko]

2 splashes of rogue will no longer a trap smith make

[MysticRhythms]

2 splashes of rogue will no longer a trap smith make

Rogue 2 still gives Evasion which is the key ability necessary for traps such as these.

[Impaqt]

Was there a lot of people saying Elite was Too Easy? I consider myself a power gamer for the most part... Elite High level Quests definatly tested all my Characters abilities..... Could I get though them without Dying.. Usualy.... Were some a Joke? Yes....

We're taking about a CONFIRMED DC of 30 in a LEVEL ONE quest here foks....

What level do you have to be to hit a 30 Save? Most rogues couldnt even think about Rolling the save until l4 or 5.. and makign the save on a regular basis? 10+ I would guess.....

Like I said, I have no problem with the Damage..... Do as much damage as ya lik.. Makeit insta-death for a 600hp Barbarian..... IF they fail their save.....

I might not even have a problem with the Save DC if you could still get XP for it when the quest was doable.....

If the DCs dont get adjusted back down, Make the Quest +2 Level for Hard and +4 Level for Elite.... THis will rebalance the XP and loot for the significantly higher challenge.

[Impaqt]

Rogue 2 still gives Evasion which is the key ability necessary for traps such as these.

In order for Evasion to do anything, You must make your Save.... Improved Evasion is the Critcal Ability now for traps.

[rimble]

In order for Evasion to do anything, You must make your Save.... Improved Evasion is the Critcal Ability now for traps.

Which still doesn't help at all with the ones you need to stand in...

[Stonebread]

Like Stealthy Repo, it'll just become a throw away quest to be run once for favor at level cap.

Actually, with many builds, Stealthy Repro is easy to zerg for xp and favor. Solo even. You need good AC, resists and some sort of speed boost. (I recently discovered this)