crafting - the grind to end all grinds but it doesn't have to be!

[Yaga_Nub]

It would be a bit naive to expect DDO crafting to be exactly the same as D&D crafting, especially since in D&D XP is a limited resource (and thus a legitimate cost for crafting) while in DDO it's an unlimited resource (and therefore not).

But that aside, as everyone else has pointed out, you're almost 100% wrong about how D&D crafting works. If you're going to complain about the differences, at least get it right.

Well xp is a limited resource only to the extend that you don't quest more often. If you wanted to you could get a table top game together every single day and gain xp.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

It would be a bit naive to expect DDO crafting to be exactly the same as D&D crafting, especially since in D&D XP is a limited resource (and thus a legitimate cost for crafting) while in DDO it's an unlimited resource (and therefore not)..

I'd suggest that the craft point rules from D&D would allow controlled crafting that wouldn't have allowed for overpowered use or allowed powergamers to grind out any more superweapons than an average player.... They missed the boat by not trying to go that route.

[MysticTheurge]

Well xp is a limited resource only to the extend that you don't quest more often. If you wanted to you could get a table top game together every single day and gain xp.

Not really.

Even in that situation, there's X amount of XP in your game. If you spend a bunch (Y) on crafting, you're going to be at X-Y XP and therefore behind everyone else.

To some degree, this is mitigated by D&D's rules for XP (such that if you fall so far behind as to be a level behind everyone else, you get more XP per encounter), but you're still going to be behind people who aren't spending XP on stuff.

This is not the case in DDO.

[Aesop]

It would be a bit naive to expect DDO crafting to be exactly the same as D&D crafting, especially since in D&D XP is a limited resource (and thus a legitimate cost for crafting) while in DDO it's an unlimited resource (and therefore not).

But that aside, as everyone else has pointed out, you're almost 100% wrong about how D&D crafting works. If you're going to complain about the differences, at least get it right.

But we made a number of suggestions to mitigate this and to limit excessive crafting. Such as incubation periods Earned Crafting XP and things like rare components for higher powered items. As well as the cost of the Feats themselves...of course that is decreased by the Feat Repec options

Aesop

[Aesop]

I'd suggest that the craft point rules from D&D would allow controlled crafting that wouldn't have allowed for overpowered use or allowed powergamers to grind out any more superweapons than an average player.... They missed the boat by not trying to go that route.

I never really liked the craft point system... it seems that its too restrictive

Aesop

[MysticTheurge]

But we made a number of suggestions to mitigate this and to limit excessive crafting. Such as incubation periods Earned Crafting XP and things like rare components for higher powered items.

And what we have is a rare components system.

[Aesop]

And what we have is a rare components system.

I think we both know that it is not the same thing that we were talking about though

Aesop

and anyway like I said this is fine for a raid but I'll be a little disappointed if this is how it works for the rest of crafting

[MysticTheurge]

I think we both know that it is not the same thing that we were talking about though

Well, the other crafting recipe (the non-raid one) doesn't even really use rare components. It just uses some regular old, relatively-easy-to-find components.

I wouldn't be surprised if, when real crafting gets added, we start seeing collectibles, gems and other similar items get involved.

[Aesop]

Well, the other crafting recipe (the non-raid one) doesn't even really use rare components. It just uses some regular old, relatively-easy-to-find components.

I wouldn't be surprised if, when real crafting gets added, we start seeing collectibles, gems and other similar items get involved.

Yeah I'm not too keen on that really. I could see having something like a rare component for +4/+5 effective level things like vorpal or Heavy Fortification but I dislike having to grind to make items... though thankfully I'm fairly sure it will be better than the other MMO grind to make an item that has no value other than to build up your skill with grinding out items.

Aesop

[Strakeln]

OP... don't worry, 6.1 looks like it will introduce the crafting you're interested in.

[Aesop]

Ya know I was thinking about it and is the Raid crafting only good for the Green Steel Weapons or can we take other items and enchant them?

Like I have a set of 30% striding Boots I'd love to Imbue with Elemental Fire for the Dex bonus

Aesop

[MysticTheurge]

Ya know I was thinking about it and is the Raid crafting only good for the Green Steel Weapons or can we take other items and enchant them?

Like I have a set of 30% striding Boots I'd love to Imbue with Elemental Fire for the Dex bonus

It's only green steel items, but weapons aren't the only thing you can make.

So you may be able to make those boots, they'll just be green steel boots and you'll have to figure out what gives 30% striding.

[Aesop]

It's only green steel items, but weapons aren't the only thing you can make.

So you may be able to make those boots, they'll just be green steel boots and you'll have to figure out what gives 30% striding.

okie dokie thanks

now if only I could get into the game

Aesop

[VirieSquichie]

OP... don't worry, 6.1 looks like it will introduce the crafting you're interested in.

I look forward to it.


P.S.
Incidentally, to those who have said "crafting doesn't work like that" of the various crafting method comments/proposals...there have been many types of crafting in AD&D, both published by the official sources and created by various players. I don't claim to know what the current "official" system is, as my pencil-and-paper group dissolved due to the demands of family lives shortly after the Core 3.5 books came out. No single crafting method has ever appealed to everyone. DDO has a unique environment and has had to bend or reinvent various aspects of the game to accomodate that - hence Enhancements, spell points and rank-and-file monsters with many hundreds of HP. It's quite plausible that they would have to implement a crafting system that differs greatly from whatever the current "official" crafting system is, simply to fit into the existing DDO game mechanic. DDO is not, CAN not, faithfully duplicate a pencil-and-paper gaming system. Screaming "NO" or saying flat out that crafting does not work that way indicates that you either aren't taking the different environment into consideration or you place no value in the opinions of others, either of which reduces my opinion of your post to nearly nil.

[CrazySamaritan]

DDO is not, CAN not, faithfully duplicate a pencil-and-paper gaming system. Screaming "NO" or saying flat out that crafting does not work that way indicates that you either aren't taking the different environment into consideration or you place no value in the opinions of others, either of which reduces my opinion of your post to nearly nil.

Not true.

PnP requires 4 things to craft magical items;
1) The right feat
2) The spell 1/day
3) 1/4 Gold of total price in materials (in PnP, the DM usually just asks for the gold)
4) 1/25 XP of the total price in gold

Now, 1&2 can be traded for an item that holds one or both of each.
An Eldrich Device, by definition, has a Wish spell stored in it (and is therefore considered an artifact). This means that they can be considered to have the feats and spells inherent.
That's Restrictions 1&2 down.

3) Can be done two ways; (1)gold from your inventory, or (2)players must collect specific materials, something like a collectibles system.
Guess what we have in place? It's the DM's call, and I could listen either way.

4) Here's the real issue; in some books, there's already been some suggestion that certain rare materials can be used to offset XP costs.
So it is reasonable to assume that Turbine might change this, but this is the ONLY rule that might actually go against the way PnP works. Even then, there are precedents, so it would not be a complete no-no for it to work this way.

What was proposed was to add something COMPLETELY irrelevant to the game.

[salmag]

Not true.

PnP requires 4 things to craft magical items;
1) The right feat
2) The spell 1/day
3) 1/4 Gold of total price in materials (in PnP, the DM usually just asks for the gold)
4) 1/25 XP of the total price in gold

Now, 1&2 can be traded for an item that holds one or both of each.
An Eldrich Device, by definition, has a Wish spell stored in it (and is therefore considered an artifact). This means that they can be considered to have the feats and spells inherent.
That's Restrictions 1&2 down.

3) Can be done two ways; (1)gold from your inventory, or (2)players must collect specific materials, something like a collectibles system.
Guess what we have in place? It's the DM's call, and I could listen either way.

4) Here's the real issue; in some books, there's already been some suggestion that certain rare materials can be used to offset XP costs.
So it is reasonable to assume that Turbine might change this, but this is the ONLY rule that might actually go against the way PnP works. Even then, there are precedents, so it would not be a complete no-no for it to work this way.

What was proposed was to add something COMPLETELY irrelevant to the game.

Look the system I proposed was just that "a Proposal." It was an idea. Obviously, DDO is an MMORPG and not PnP. So, if you want to go by the "Rules," let's take some things into account. Only spellcasters can make magic items and they have to take a feat to do it. Period. I proposed something different, using Skills instead of Feats, and making other classes have some sort of input. Sorry it doesn't fit the mold or follow the "Rules" but then again neither does DDO. And for the person that said Clerics are casters, You are correct, I should have clarified and said "Arcane Casters, or Divine Casters or Non Casters or Mixed Casters;" Whatever... they were suggestions, people. And suggestions that MIGHT HAVE prevented Re-Rolling characters. Now back on topic:

Since we are going by the "Rules" You have a Time constraint, a Materials constraint, a Money constraint, an XP constraint, Feat constraints (since there are more than one feat that you need for the various items in question), and the fact that ONLY spellcasters can craft. NOTE that I said spellcasters and not casters healers etc etc etc.

Lets deal with the TIME CONSTRAINT FIRST.
Unless you want to say that you can only craft something 1x per every three days (again this is another example, don't have a crisis people), then I would suggest that this not be used. But a lockout, sort of like the raid mechanic one, is very acceptable.

MATERIALS CONSTRAINT
All those collectable materials floating around already could possibly be used. Mix and match ingredients to come up with a substance that can imbue a masterwork item. the Devs might need to add masterwork items vendors for the rings, boots, goggles, etc. If you want to imbue a spell effect, like haste, you would probably need a scroll, to add a number of charges then you would probably need more then one scroll. So, three charges of Haste would be 3 scrolls (once again, it's an example). I think you get the idea about the materials. Masterwork Item, collectable materials, possibly scrolls. Remember to keep body part affinities in mind Boots of Haste would be acceptable, not Boots of Ice Storm.

MONEY CONSTRAINT
I think this is self explanatory. It will cost you to gather said masterwork item, possibly for scrolls, materials could be found in the local environments. However, it should also cost according to the finished item in question. I would think that for each +1 that there would be additional costs. Those costs are defined in the various sourcebooks, as well as at the d20 site. DDO could possibly change this, deviate from it, or not, as was mentioned above, it's really the DMs (Devs of MMORPGs) choice. Let's just leave it at that.

XP CONSTRAINT
Once again I think this is pretty self explanatory. It should cost some XP to create the item in question. According to the "Rules," it is usually a fraction (1/25, I believe) of the money constraint. Once again, up to the DM or the Devs of MMORPGs.

FEAT CONSTRAINTS and SPELLCASTER ONLY CONSTRAINTS
In the "Rules," ONLY (did I spell that right) spellcasters that have taken the particular Feat in question can craft. Those feats are: Craft Magic Arms and Armor,
Brew Potions,
Forge Rings,
Craft Rods,
Scribe Scrolls,
Create Staves,
Create Wands,
Create Wondrous Items.
8 different feats that a spellcaster would need. I have absolutely NO problem with the Devs implementing this.
However,
This is where I say just go with a SKILL and not a FEAT based system. The reason for this is so that ANYONE that would like to craft something could; They could spend skill points instead of Feat slots that could possibly be better off used elsewhere. If you just want to make it so that ONLY spellcasters can use these skills then fine, make it that way. With the current enhancement system (wait a minute, is there an enhancement system in the "Rules?" Oh I forgot, we were talking about DDO not PnP, anyway...), you could even just add the skill 'CRAFTING' and within the enhancement system spell out the 8 different ways in which one can focus on it.

Get rid of the idea for blowing up an item that failed the save (that was more of a reference to TURBINE's OTHER game, which is one possible(?) way of implementing Crafting that Turbine ALREADY has).

I really am ok with just taking away XP, Money, Materials, and having just Spellcasters do it. Whether it is by FEAT or through a proposed SKILL/ENHANCEMENT system, whatever. The main point is that the Eldritch "Proposed Crafting" system really is NOT crafting, and that crafting really should be implemented. To turn around and say that my proposal is "COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT" is way off base and completely uncalled for.

This is DDO, not PnP D&D. It has an enhancement system, and it is an MMORPG.

Oh, and by the way, there already is a CRAFT SKILL in PnP (albeit it is just to manufacture items but I don't see why it couldn't be used here). If you fail your craft skill check, you can not make the item in question for a weeks time.

[CrazySamaritan]

Look the system I proposed was just that "a Proposal."

This "Prototype" is not crafting. It is questing for items that may or may not drop and placing them on a "combine" machine to craft for you.

Crafting is:
1. Adding ranks to a Crafting (x) skill (you may want to add knowledge (y) skill as well),
2. Getting a Masterwork item,
3. Getting materials to craft "x" item,
4. Spending xp and gp to imbue said item,
5. Make a Crafting (x) skill check to get item, or
6. Failing a Crafting (x) skill check to blow up item and all ingredients.
7. Then you would have to start over in order to try again.

This is NOT a proposal; it is a statement. An erroneous statement, but still a statement. A proposal would be along the lines of "crafting can be done this way". You said it is, which means that any other way is wrong.

It was an idea. Obviously, DDO is an MMORPG and not PnP. So, if you want to go by the "Rules," let's take some things into account. Only spellcasters can make magic items and they have to take a feat to do it. Period.

Wrong.

I proposed something different, using Skills instead of Feats, and making other classes have some sort of input.

They do.

Sorry it doesn't fit the mold or follow the "Rules" but then again neither does DDO.

In several ways, it doesn't. Have you found a +6 longsword with flaming? Because I'm pretty sure they're following the rules that non-epic weapons are limited to +5 enchancement bonus. DDO follows pretty close for an alternate medium.

And for the person that said Clerics are casters, You are correct, I should have clarified and said "Arcane Casters, or Divine Casters or Non Casters or Mixed Casters;" Whatever... they were suggestions, people.

If they're suggestions, DON'T STATE IT AS A FACT.

And suggestions that MIGHT HAVE prevented Re-Rolling characters.

Not if you want a skill-based system.

Now back on topic:

Since we are going by the "Rules" You have a Time constraint, a Materials constraint, a Money constraint, an XP constraint, Feat constraints (since there are more than one feat that you need for the various items in question),

True, Technically I subsumed the time cost into the gold and XP, because it's a limit of how much gold you can work on per day. DDO's system of time is messed up, anyway.

and the fact that ONLY spellcasters can craft. NOTE that I said spellcasters and not casters healers etc etc etc.

Yes, I note, and I also note that you're still wrong. Try reading the DMG, or perhaps what I've written.

Lets deal with the TIME CONSTRAINT FIRST.
Unless you want to say that you can only craft something 1x per every three days (again this is another example, don't have a crisis people), then I would suggest that this not be used. But a lockout, sort of like the raid mechanic one, is very acceptable.

I'm fine with that.

MATERIALS CONSTRAINT
All those collectible materials floating around already could possibly be used. Mix and match ingredients to come up with a substance that can imbue a masterwork item. the Devs might need to add masterwork items vendors for the rings, boots, goggles, etc. If you want to imbue a spell effect, like haste, you would probably need a scroll, to add a number of charges then you would probably need more then one scroll. So, three charges of Haste would be 3 scrolls (once again, it's an example). I think you get the idea about the materials. Masterwork Item, collectible materials, possibly scrolls. Remember to keep body part affinities in mind Boots of Haste would be acceptable, not Boots of Ice Storm.

MONEY CONSTRAINT
I think this is self explanatory. It will cost you to gather said masterwork item, possibly for scrolls, materials could be found in the local environments. However, it should also cost according to the finished item in question. I would think that for each +1 that there would be additional costs. Those costs are defined in the various sourcebooks, as well as at the d20 site. DDO could possibly change this, deviate from it, or not, as was mentioned above, it's really the DMs (Devs of MMORPGs) choice. Let's just leave it at that.

No objections, although technically when you say materials constraints, I think you mean spell availability and item.

XP CONSTRAINT
Once again I think this is pretty self explanatory. It should cost some XP to create the item in question. According to the "Rules," it is usually a fraction (1/25, I believe) of the money constraint. Once again, up to the DM or the Devs of MMORPGs.

Right again. I think the XP debt system that was in place for death would work fine for it.

FEAT CONSTRAINTS and SPELLCASTER ONLY CONSTRAINTS
In the "Rules," ONLY (did I spell that right) spellcasters that have taken the particular Feat in question can craft. Those feats are: Craft Magic Arms and Armor,
Brew Potions,
Forge Rings,
Craft Rods,
Scribe Scrolls,
Create Staves,
Create Wands,
Create Wondrous Items.

Right, again. The feats are needed, and can only be taken by a spellcaster of the appropriate power level.

However,
This is where I say just go with a SKILL and not a FEAT based system. The reason for this is so that ANYONE that would like to craft something could; They could spend skill points instead of Feat slots that could possibly be better off used elsewhere. If you just want to make it so that ONLY spellcasters can use these skills then fine, make it that way. With the current enhancement system (wait a minute, is there an enhancement system in the "Rules?" Oh I forgot, we were talking about DDO not PnP, anyway...), you could even just add the skill 'CRAFTING' and within the enhancement system spell out the 8 different ways in which one can focus on it.

Except that 1) skills don't make magic 2) the craft skill creates non-magical items 3) the argument of skills instead of feats can go both ways, so it's a bad argument. 4) instead of a static bonus, action points provide extra dice to a roll for a limited number of times while you level.

Get rid of the idea for blowing up an item that failed the save (that was more of a reference to TURBINE's OTHER game, which is one possible(?) way of implementing Crafting that Turbine ALREADY has).

You're the one who brought it up.

I really am ok with just taking away XP, Money, Materials, and having just Spellcasters do it. Whether it is by FEAT or through a proposed SKILL/ENHANCEMENT system, whatever. The main point is that the Eldritch "Proposed Crafting" system really is NOT crafting, and that crafting really should be implemented. To turn around and say that my proposal is "COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT" is way off base and completely uncalled for.

This is DDO, not PnP D&D. It has an enhancement system, and it is an MMORPG.

There is no restriction in pen and paper that prevents a Fighter from participating in the crafting of an item by donating the item, the gold cost, and the XP cost. The Eldrich device already provides a way for the fighter to gain access to everything else, without another person. You claim that what I am saying is uncalled for, but what you suggested was a system that is point-based, not level based. DDO follows DnD rules on making level-based characters, not point-based. So any point-based system is adding an irrelevant system to the game.

Also; you don't seem to realize that DDO does not need to force players to give up combat ability, just to craft.
Forcing a choice between Combat and Crafting is wrong.

Oh, and by the way, there already is a CRAFT SKILL in PnP (albeit it is just to manufacture items but I don't see why it couldn't be used here). If you fail your craft skill check, you can not make the item in question for a weeks time.

Oh, good, you can read my posts; I've mentioned that before.

[Geonis]

Don't forget that for every 1,000 GP of base value of an item, you take 1 day to craft. Thus your character making that 98,000 GP item (+5 Flaming Longsword of Pure Good) is unable to adventure for 98 days.

Also the XP costs would at least have to be multiplieed by 10 like the XP needed to level currently. This means that 98,000 GP sword above costs 39,200 XP which is far more doable than not being able to play your character for 98 days.

[Veltar]

But you already dislike DDO Lorien.

Dont judge, just enjoy.


Drakia 15 Bard Argo, Veltar 14/1 Barb/Fighter Argo. Shantilie Lace 6 Scroc Argo

OrdosDraconum.net =)

[Rambin]

According to one of the producers comments in a video that can be seen at gametrailers.com. There are 1200 recipies currently in the game and they will be putting in more recipies with each mod. There is more to this crafting than the elite stuff, but no one is trying to find those recipies yet.