So, Tempest I enhancement... Worth it or not?

[Gol]

For the 3 dragonshards I burned getting it, -36 HP and -2 attack (dropped weapon focus, toughness x 2, and dwarven axe attack 2), I'm not convinced. While the AC bonus is bugged in our favor, I think I'll keep it. But after they fix it... I'm undecided.

About the only benefit is that Spring Attack lets me move to break the swing animation (preventing the dreaded 5th attack) without a penalty.

[Puke]

Only with experience with the builds will we really know. But as of right now, I don't think any of the new Ranger builds are worth it.

For Tempest, you have to give up three feats and on the 4th feat, buy the Tempest which gives you a +10% melee increase. This means you probably have to drop some feats that gave you some pluses to-hit and so you are probably now missing 10% more than before and I think it becomes a wash. And this then also pushes back getting Improved Crit until the 12th level. I'm very skeptical. I did build a Human Ranger and had him sitting at level 6.5 for more than a month awaiting this update and last night bought him the Tempest and so I'll see how this goes in the future. Also, I feel there is no real point to Spring Attack because you end up bouncing off the monster you are chasing swinging away and missing until maybe the 7th swing when your swing happens to time things just perfectly and you actually get a die roll.

I also had an Elf Ranger at 6.5 waiting for Deepwood Sniper. Here, you end up having to buy six enhancements at a cost, I think, of nine Enhancement Points. That meant some pretty important stuff has to go and for what? So I can sneak past monsters? Plus, this is a clickie! What a major pain in the butt. I set the clickie to the #1 slot of my main shortcut bar and I guess in a fight, when I'm looking at the targets, I'll just have to blindly mash that key over and over. And hopefully chance has it that this one particular shot does roll a critical. And when you do, you'll take aggro...the monster will run towards you really mad...you are designed for bow fighting so it's time to kite the thing but oh no, you have all these points in sneaking and does it work for you now? Nope. My Ranger lost his Haste Boost enhancement which is actually a lot more important in this game in these situations than sneaking ever is. I think I lost some other pretty good enhancements too. Oh, and Deepwood Sniper I is it. Even up to 16th level in the Enhancement list, there is no Sniper II. Even Barbarians get a +2 to their crit threat and that's permanent without any of this silly mashing of a clicky for the rest of your life.

Arcane ARcher? I don't know much about this one. I looked at it a while ago and thought, all that for only that? Just to create your own arrows? I bet my to-hit is better if I do NOT take Arcane ARcher than it is as an Arcane Archer and those +4 arrows. Big stinking deal.

Yeah, I'm skeptical. We'll see how my two new Rangers work out. I still have my three other "normal" Rangers to compare them to and so we'll see.

My $.02.

[kingfisher]

i liked it. definitely noticed the added attack speed, when spell/pot hasted and haste boosted for the big fights the attack speed was hard to follow. i thought they were fixing the bug with the 5th attack? i don't have 15 BAB yet anyway so it is moot for me at this point. my AC went up by 2, which is what i thought was supposed to happen, how is it bugged?

[EinarMal]

Maybe the best type of build would be more of a Fighter 10/Ranger 6 type build? Certainly the feat cost would be much less of an issue. It does indeed stink that you have to take Dodge-Mobility-Spring Attack for it. If that chain was good at all it might not be too bad, but those 3 feats are not on the "stellar" list.

[CSFurious]

i have a 10ranger/4fighter that is all set for tempest when i get around to playing her (it is tough finding the time right now when you have multiple capped characters)

i cannot imagine how a pure ranger could do it or would even bother trying

[rpasell]

I really like the Arcane archer on my ranger rogue.

I took Deepwoods Sniper on my pure class ranged ranger, and also like it. It's more of a memory issue with "oops 10 seconds are up, hit the button again". But for on crit effects, it really helps.

[Illuminati]

Maybe the best type of build would be more of a Fighter 10/Ranger 6 type build? Certainly the feat cost would be much less of an issue. It does indeed stink that you have to take Dodge-Mobility-Spring Attack for it. If that chain was good at all it might not be too bad, but those 3 feats are not on the "stellar" list.

Free plug:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=133721

Pretty sick at level 6 so far =p

[Illuminati]

i have a 10ranger/4fighter that is all set for tempest when i get around to playing her (it is tough finding the time right now when you have multiple capped characters)

i cannot imagine how a pure ranger could do it or would even bother trying

Dex Based
1. Wep Finesse
3. Dodge
6. Mobility
9. IC: Pierce
12: Spring Attack
15. Power Attack

Works just fine.

Strength Based
1. Dodge
3. Mobility
6. Spring Attack
9. IC: Whatever
12: Power Attack
15: OTWF

Works just fine as well.

[Kerr]

The great thing about DDO is there is no cookie cutter build. Each to their own.

Don't like it, don't take it. I am taking it as soon as I get the 4 APs for it in level 15.

[CSFurious]

too many combat feats have to be taken at 1, 3, 6, 9, 12 & 15 which equal wasted feats, i.e., take a fighter feat or two or three & get them for free

my ranger/fighter has luck of heroes, toughness, combat expertise, improved crit: pierce, etc.

at 15, i can take improved crit: slash & start to mix up my weapon-sets or even fit in a ranged combat feat (which i doubt, ranged combat is such a waste of time IMO)

pure rangers have to wait a long time to take the necessary feats, not the ranger/fighter

you get more hitpoints, more combat feats for free & fighter enhancements

i would rather play a 12 ranger/4 fighter over a 16 ranger, right now

you will have more hitpoints if a squishy race, be stronger & be better at combat

Dex Based
1. Wep Finesse
3. Dodge
6. Mobility
9. IC: Pierce
12: Spring Attack
15. Power Attack

Works just fine.

Strength Based
1. Dodge
3. Mobility
6. Spring Attack
9. IC: Whatever
12: Power Attack
15: OTWF

Works just fine as well.

[Xithos]

I just came back to level a couple new characters after a nice long break and look at the new tempest enhancement as "hopefully" being a gateway to something better when they bump the cap up again. Superior TWF did not seem to make it into this mod as far as I can tell, but if it has a Dex requirement of 19 then the Tempest II enhancement could be a real boon to strength rangers if it actually did do something like grant that feat for free without the dex requirement. Also, if the Tempest II did not add any additional requirements beyond Tempest I with additional ranger levels and continued improving attack speed I would probably end up a believer. As I see it now, expending 3 feats and AP for Tempest I seems..... meh..... at best. Hopefully some experience with it will change my mind, but I am very excited about the Ram's Might spell.

[Puke]

Dex Based
1. Wep Finesse
3. Dodge
6. Mobility
9. IC: Pierce
12: Spring Attack
15. Power Attack

From my perspective, that would work better for a high level Ranger being re-feated to Tempest Ranger. Personally, I couldn't handle leveling up a new character and waiting for the 12th level to finally get Spring Attack and thus only at 12 finally getting the Tempest enhancement.

IC:Pierce is very important to get at the 9th level, in my opinion and thus my Tempest Ranger (who is currently level 6.5) is Human. With the extra feat I could go:
1. Dodge, Finesse
3. Mobility
6. Spring Attack
9. IC Crit Pierce.

I could not see playing a Tempest Ranger another six levels before getting either Spring Attack (and thus Tempest Enhancements) or IC:Pierce. Not another six levels of just regular Ranger. Ugh!

So yeah, I find it quite expensive if you are leveling up a character to play a Tempest starting at level 6.

And shoot, overall, Spring Attack is a waste. It doesn't help one to get a die roll when chasing monsters around. So for three feats, to chase a monster around and not get die rolls, it's a big, fat, stinking waste! (Though, it's not bad when trying to circle a target to its back or get in position to flank a target...but big whoop, three feats for that.)

(Same with sneaking skills to RANGE a target. I think that is dumb...now, if I wanted to get close, sneaking makes sense but not to shoot something from a huge distance. Double ugh!)

[WeiQuinn]

My Tempest I Ranger is a Human Ranger/Rogue/Fighter. He took Dodge & Mobility at level 1, Weapon Finesse at level 3 and Spring Attack & Improved Critical: Pierce at level 9 with his 1 Fighter level. He took Skill Focus: UMD at level 6. Level 12 will be Improved Critical: Ranged and I haven't deceided what the level 15 feat will be (maybe Nimble Fingers or Toughness since I have access to the Fighter Toughness 1 enhancement). At level 16 he'll be Ranger 12/Rogue 3/Fighter 1. I was only able to complete a normal Tempest Spine run with him, but he seemed to hold his own pretty well...

[MysticRhythms]

my ranger/fighter has luck of heroes, toughness, combat expertise, improved crit: pierce, etc.

For a pure Ranger, the only interesting feat in that list is Improved Crit: Pierced. Luck of Heroes is a waste of a feat. Toughness is not useful because you don't have the enhancements to make it useful as a pure Ranger and who needs Combat Expertise? I'd much rather have Power attack as my stance. The decision becomes - include Power Attack for more melee power or include Improved Crit: Pierced for versatility.

pure rangers have to wait a long time to take the necessary feats, not the ranger/fighter

Pure rangers can get the enhancement as fast as anyone else can. A Weapon Finessed build might want to wait until level 9. Big deal.

you get more hitpoints, more combat feats for free & fighter enhancements

I prefer Barkskin, Jump, ram's Might, Energy Resistance, Energy Protection, Evasion and good Reflex saves as quickly as I can get them with maximum possible duration. If I'm going to build a fighter, I'll build a fighter.

[CSFurious]

first, i think most smart players would agree that luck of heroes is one of the best feats in the game so your post starts off sounding very uninformed

second, i do not even understand why you point out that it makes no sense for a pure ranger to take toughness as same is self-explanatory (it only makes sense for the ranger/fighter)

third, once your dex-based ranger's dex get over 32, i do not believe power attack is really necessary anymore, i.e., what is +5 damage at end-game? not much IMO

fourth, combat expertise equals +5 to ac which is always important & access to the whirlwind feat which performed by a tempest dual-wielding ranger should be pretty **** effective

fifth, my 10 ranger/4 fighter casts every spell that you list, has 32 dex & probably has a better reflex save due to the worthless feat luck of heroes; oh boy, i can't cast FOM yet or summon a worthless baby razor cat, big deal

you really make me want to roll a pure ranger lol

anyway, i am starting a 32-point elf ranger who will be 14 ranger/2 fighter str & dex-based who will dual-wield longswords already level 3, he is just a little squishy right now due to low starting con as a result of high str & dex

For a pure Ranger, the only interesting feat in that list is Improved Crit: Pierced. Luck of Heroes is a waste of a feat. Toughness is not useful because you don't have the enhancements to make it useful as a pure Ranger and who needs Combat Expertise? I'd much rather have Power attack as my stance. The decision becomes - include Power Attack for more melee power or include Improved Crit: Pierced for versatility.


Pure rangers can get the enhancement as fast as anyone else can. A Weapon Finessed build might want to wait until level 9. Big deal.


I prefer Barkskin, Jump, ram's Might, Energy Resistance, Energy Protection, Evasion and good Reflex saves as quickly as I can get them with maximum possible duration. If I'm going to build a fighter, I'll build a fighter.

[Westerner]

first, i think most smart players would agree that luck of heroes is one of the best feats in the game so your post starts off sounding very uninformed

Personally, I don't consider luck of heroes one of the best feats in the game. Can you back up your statement with something substantive?

third, once your dex-based ranger's dex get over 32, i do not believe power attack is really necessary anymore, i.e., what is +5 damage at end-game? not much IMO

PA raises dps significantly, and with high dex/finesse, you can easily afford to the to-hit penalty. A better choice than Luck of Heroes, IMO.

fourth, combat expertise equals +5 to ac which is always important & access to the whirlwind feat which performed by a tempest dual-wielding ranger should be pretty **** effective

CE only matters in an AC build. I don't think this build will get AC high enough for CE to be decisive, and you can't use it at the same time as PA. Also why would whirlwind attack be any more useful in a tempest build specifically?

[Obitus]

first, i think most smart players would agree that luck of heroes is one of the best feats in the game so your post starts off sounding very uninformed

It's a +1 bonus to all saves in an extremely high-magic world -- where we have inflated stats and item bonuses, and powerful buffs like Greater Heroism are thrown around like rice at a wedding.

Luck of Heroes is a solid enough feat, I suppose, on a build with lots of bonus feats available. Pure Rangers are perhaps uniquely ill-suited for a feat like Luck of Heroes, though -- in that they have no bonus feats available and their base saves are unusually high to begin with. So no, I don't see how "most smart players" would agree that it's a solid pick for a pure Ranger.

Appealing to a majority opinion -- especially an anonymous and unprovable majority -- isn't an effective argument, either way.

second, i do not even understand why you point out that it makes no sense for a pure ranger to take toughness as same is self-explanatory (it only makes sense for the ranger/fighter)

I believe he's saying that a 16-point bonus to HP is fairly insignificant in the grand scheme. If you are a Dwarf, and/or have Fighter (or Barbarian, or Paladin) levels, then you can enlarge that bonus through enhancements. Pure Rangers (non-Dwarf) can't do that.

If you're planning to roll a Dwarf build, then I can see why you'd take Toughness on a pure Ranger. Otherwise, it seems to me a waste.

third, once your dex-based ranger's dex get over 32, i do not believe power attack is really necessary anymore, i.e., what is +5 damage at end-game? not much IMO

Why would having a high DEX make Power Attack less attractive? DEX doesn't increase damage. In fact, having a high DEX on a Finesse character makes Power Attack more attractive, because it mitigates the feat's ToHit penalty. If you meant to say something else, then please clarify.

Secondly, +5 damage is a pretty big deal. It's the equivalent of having 10 extra STR (in terms of raw damage). If you dual-wield, it's actually better than that, because STR bonuses are halved on the offhand attack, whereas PA's bonus is applied evenly.

fifth, my 10 ranger/4 fighter casts every spell that you list, has 32 dex & probably has a better reflex save due to the worthless feat luck of heroes; oh boy, i can't cast FOM yet or summon a worthless baby razor cat, big deal

You have the same Reflex save as a pure 14 Ranger, all other things being equal. High base REF saves, remember? You do have a higher Fort save because of the Fighter splash and Luck of Heroes, on the other hand.

(14 Ranger is +9/+9/+4. 10 Ranger is +7/+7/+3. 4 Fighter is +4/+1/+1. Luck of Heroes is +1/+1/+1. Your build is therefore at +12/+9/+5 before stats, items, and buffs.)

Your Energy Resistance and Barkskin spells are both inferior. You miss out on a fourth favored enemy, have fewer spell points, no free GTWF, and I'm not even sure what you missed enhancement-wise.

None of that's to say that your build's bad; I'm just pointing out that there are reasons (and good ones) to take Ranger past 10. I believe Mystic's only point was that most of the feat selections you gained by taking Fighter levels would be either unnecessary or undesirable on pure Ranger.

[CSFurious]

you make excellent points & are very logical

luck of heroes: for my characters that have this feat, i rarely ever fail important saves (i think you know what these are)

power attack: i had this at one point with this ranger/fighter (until about level 8 or 9), i switched it out to see what would happen & as she leveled & ending up with 32 dex & 24 str at level 14, she still hit the enemy hard so i may or may not take this feat back

spells: i have never experienced a problem with casting 20-point resists vs. 30-points resists due to evasion, 32-dex & luck of heroes adding +1 to reflex saves

whirlwind attack: for an off-tanker this is a great feat to finish off mobs fast after the initial contact

combat expertise: need for ww attack & with ce up & this weak barkskin, i am still pretty durable

fourth enemy: that hurts but there is give & take with any build

all i will say is that if you read the acheivment forum threads discussing the new raid zone, you better have some hitpoints (like over 300 to be safe) & the only pure rangers who have a lot of them are dwarves

that is why i took this squishy drow ranger & added 4 fighter levels, at level 16, this build will barely have 300 hitpoints before buffs (i still need to grind some taps for minos legen for this one, she has been on the shelf for a while)

there is nothing wrong with a pure ranger, but there is also nothing wrong with a ranger who has splashed some levels of fighter

[MysticRhythms]

first, i think most smart players would agree that luck of heroes is one of the best feats in the game so your post starts off sounding very uninformed

WHen you have a Pure Ranger, you already have good saves in two very important categories. A +1 isn't going to make your Evasion that much more awesome at high level when your bonus is in the 30s. And a +1 isn't going to save your crappy Will save. Greater Heroism is a meaningful bonus. Luck of Heroes is not. For a Fighter who can afford it AND who has crappy saves, it's better, but most classes have neither the feat room nor the need to add a mere +1. The bonus is often as insignificant as the bonus from Dodge or Weapon Focus. In general, it's a "meh" feat. Smart players do the math and analyze the cost of a feat versus a +1 bonus.

second, i do not even understand why you point out that it makes no sense for a pure ranger to take toughness as same is self-explanatory (it only makes sense for the ranger/fighter)

Pure Rangers (aside of Dwarves) don't have the enhancement line to make Toughness better. A measely 18 hit points isn't worth a feat. It makes more sense for a Fighter/Ranger because Fighters get Toughness enhancements.

third, once your dex-based ranger's dex get over 32, i do not believe power attack is really necessary anymore, i.e., what is +5 damage at end-game? not much IMO

Wow ... you consider a +1 bonus to a saving throw as huge and significant and a +5 bonus as meaningless? Power Attack is the definitive "best bang for the buck" feat for any melee character at any level who has at least a 13 Strength. I'm even considering it for my Rogue and my Bard already has it.

fourth, combat expertise equals +5 to ac which is always important & access to the whirlwind feat which performed by a tempest dual-wielding ranger should be pretty **** effective

What? You JUST said the +5 bonus from Power Attack is insignificant and now suddenly a +5 bonus to AC is wholly significant? Now I'm convinced you're just arguing with me to argue. And most players I've talked to have said that Whirlwind Attack is NOT worth the price of Admission. Cleave and Great Cleave do as good a job and have a much less stringent feat requirement, AND they require a feat you shouldn't mind taking on any melee - Power Attak.

fifth, my 10 ranger/4 fighter casts every spell that you list, has 32 dex & probably has a better reflex save due to the worthless feat luck of heroes; oh boy, i can't cast FOM yet or summon a worthless baby razor cat, big deal

Freedom of Movement against the White Dragon? Sign me up. Against hobgoblin clerics that cast Hold Person? Sign me up again. ANd if you read what I wrote, you'd have seen that part about getting the most bonus "as fast as possible."

you really make me want to roll a pure ranger lol

The advice I've read from you on the boards has been helpful in that the majority of the things you say are often the opposite of what I'd do.

[MysticRhythms]

I believe Mystic's only point was that most of the feat selections you gained by taking Fighter levels would be either unnecessary or undesirable on pure Ranger.

That's exactly what I meant. Actually, you stated everything I meant succinctly. I posted my response before reading yours and yeah, you pretty much got all of my points.