So, Tempest I enhancement... Worth it or not?

[Yaga_Nub]

I like it so I'm in the worth it group.

[MysticRhythms]

luck of heroes: for my characters that have this feat, i rarely ever fail important saves (i think you know what these are)

What saves does this really help you with THAT much? What are your save bonuses on the character? I gather that this feat helps you maybe 2-3% of the time, considering you liekly have a high Fortitude save without the feat and a high Reflex save without the feat. The only time it helps you (and only helps to a 5% improvement) is with Will. In fact, I think you'd be better off skippign Luck of Heroes and taking Iron Will to make the bonus at least a little more significant on your crappiest save.

power attack: i had this at one point with this ranger/fighter (until about level 8 or 9), i switched it out to see what would happen & as she leveled & ending up with 32 dex & 24 str at level 14, she still hit the enemy hard so i may or may not take this feat back

I just respecced my Dodge feat into this on my Ranger and wow do I hit harder. The exponential increase of the two-wapon fighting path plus this feat on a drow who already gets +2 to hit with Rapiers/Shortswords is ridiculous. I don't know what I was thinking to NOT take this. You really should reconsider putting it back in.

spells: i have never experienced a problem with casting 20-point resists vs. 30-points resists due to evasion, 32-dex & luck of heroes adding +1 to reflex saves

I notice it when I'm nailed by Scorching Rays and Niac's and then there's the new Polar Ray. It's 10 more hit points I don't get removed from such attacks.

whirlwind attack: for an off-tanker this is a great feat to finish off mobs fast after the initial contact

It costs five feats to get it. Cleave/Great Cleave are much much cheaper and produce the same effect with better entry requirements (Power Attack).

combat expertise: need for ww attack & with ce up & this weak barkskin, i am still pretty durable

Unless Combat Expertise is getting you into the 50s for AC, I don't see the point of having it. that's just me. I'd personally rather hit harder with Power Attack for the same penalty.

there is nothing wrong with a pure ranger, but there is also nothing wrong with a ranger who has splashed some levels of fighter

I never said there was anything wrong with a Fighter/Ranger. All I said is that if I were doing it, the feats I'd pick would more likely be things like Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization rather than Combat Expertise, Luck of Heroes and Whirlwind Attack.

[CSFurious]

i might re-swap power attack back in at level 15

whirlwind never made sense until tempest feat-chain was revealed, i think tempest is going to be awesome for well-played rangers

iron will is a great feat, but my attachment to luck of heroes is from playing with one of the best rangers in the game (who is multi-classed) who swore by it, i definitely am attached to this feat because of him & his powerful play

the only reason i multiclass is because IMO squishy elves need more hitpoints

i think 16ranger/4fighter is going to be a good build & the alternative is to stay pure for the 5th fe at level 20

i have a 32-point elf ranger that i am working on & i doubt that he still stay pure because to have both high-str & high-dex to start i had to make his con 10

peace

What saves does this really help you with THAT much? What are your save bonuses on the character? I gather that this feat helps you maybe 2-3% of the time, considering you liekly have a high Fortitude save without the feat and a high Reflex save without the feat. The only time it helps you (and only helps to a 5% improvement) is with Will. In fact, I think you'd be better off skippign Luck of Heroes and taking Iron Will to make the bonus at least a little more significant on your crappiest save.


I just respecced my Dodge feat into this on my Ranger and wow do I hit harder. The exponential increase of the two-wapon fighting path plus this feat on a drow who already gets +2 to hit with Rapiers/Shortswords is ridiculous. I don't know what I was thinking to NOT take this. You really should reconsider putting it back in.


I notice it when I'm nailed by Scorching Rays and Niac's and then there's the new Polar Ray. It's 10 more hit points I don't get removed from such attacks.


It costs five feats to get it. Cleave/Great Cleave are much much cheaper and produce the same effect with better entry requirements (Power Attack).


Unless Combat Expertise is getting you into the 50s for AC, I don't see the point of having it. that's just me. I'd personally rather hit harder with Power Attack for the same penalty.


I never said there was anything wrong with a Fighter/Ranger. All I said is that if I were doing it, the feats I'd pick would more likely be things like Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization rather than Combat Expertise, Luck of Heroes and Whirlwind Attack.

[Razvan]

i might re-swap power attack back in at level 15

whirlwind never made sense until tempest feat-chain was revealed, i think tempest is going to be awesome for well-played rangers

iron will is a great feat, but my attachment to luck of heroes is from playing with one of the best rangers in the game (who is multi-classed) who swore by it, i definitely am attached to this feat because of him & his powerful play

the only reason i multiclass is because IMO squishy elves need more hitpoints

i think 16ranger/4fighter is going to be a good build & the alternative is to stay pure for the 5th fe at level 20

i have a 32-point elf ranger that i am working on & i doubt that he still stay pure because to have both high-str & high-dex to start i had to make his con 10

peace

DOesn't "Luck of Heroes" give +1 to all saves?...If so, what is the difference between 28 reflex save and 29 refelx save. I can tell you from the other perspective, the caster's point of view: FoD with 28, 29, 30 DC hits about the same (the difference is neglijable and when you are casting it like crazy you won't notice it). Same goes for your saves....24 reflex and 28 reflex saves are SOMEWHAT different, not by much tho....but 1 point difference will never justify using a feat for it....not in DDO, maybe PnP...not sure about that one

[Westerner]

that is why i took this squishy drow ranger & added 4 fighter levels, at level 16, this build will barely have 300 hitpoints before buffs (i still need to grind some taps for minos legen for this one, she has been on the shelf for a while)

there is nothing wrong with a pure ranger, but there is also nothing wrong with a ranger who has splashed some levels of fighter

Fair point. 4 levels of fighter gives you +41HP over 4 levels of ranger, figuring in Toughness + Enhancements I & II, which may be significant. Kargon has a thread somewhere exploring the "optimamal" mod6 Ranger/Fighter multiclass mix.

[Aeneas]

Many would do well to follow obitus' reasoning and tone when responding to posts - kudos sir on your candor, logic, and politeness.

[Westerner]

Many would do well to follow obitus' reasoning and tone when responding to posts - kudos sir on your candor, logic, and politeness.

/signed

[rpasell]

Many would do well to follow obitus' reasoning and tone when responding to posts - kudos sir on your candor, logic, and politeness.

/signed

[MysticRhythms]

Fair point. 4 levels of fighter gives you +41HP over 4 levels of ranger, figuring in Toughness + Enhancements I & II, which may be significant. Kargon has a thread somewhere exploring the "optimamal" mod6 Ranger/Fighter multiclass mix.

That's certainly a good argument and a reasonable cost - one feat and 3 action points Those abilities plus 2 extra feats (I'd probably go with Weapon Focus/Specialization on Piercing for my Ranger) might be a good alternative to the 17-20 levels of Ranger that might not provide anythign of note.

I personally am shying away from the Tempest Enhancement. It's just too costly for me. I don't want to give up Finesse, Power Attack and Improved Critical on bows and melee weapons.

[Shaamis]

I've read the thread, and the only nagging thought I have is:

When will The Ranger;Tempest II enhancement come out, and what will the ranger level reqs be?

[Gol]

I've read the thread, and the only nagging thought I have is:

When will The Ranger;Tempest II enhancement come out, and what will the ranger level reqs be?

Ranger 15 or 16 and a few yet-to-be-determined enhancements (including Tempest 1, of course).

[ehcsztein]

So far I am really enjoying the Tempest enhancement. Definitly adds to my build. (8rng / 7ftr)

Of course I was already specced into Whirlwind so I didn't have to change anything to go Tempest.

So @ 15 my elective feats are...

Dodge
Mobility
Point blank
Shot on the run
Spring attack
Combat expertise
Whirlwind
IC Slash
IC Range
OsTwf

@ 17 I'll take fighter 8 and either go with toughness / luck of heroes / IC Pierce. And even though I have always enjoyed the situational effectiveness of Whirlwind I can fully agree that it gains utility in a Tempest build. Currently running around with a para scimi of maiming in main hand and a w/p rapier in off hand and am doing pretty well soloing mobs in the vale. So far my max para = 5 spiders in one whirlwind ... then RUN AWAY!!!

[Kargon]

That's certainly a good argument and a reasonable cost - one feat and 3 action points Those abilities plus 2 extra feats (I'd probably go with Weapon Focus/Specialization on Piercing for my Ranger) might be a good alternative to the 17-20 levels of Ranger that might not provide anythign of note.

I personally am shying away from the Tempest Enhancement. It's just too costly for me. I don't want to give up Finesse, Power Attack and Improved Critical on bows and melee weapons.

If were wonderamering where kargon ended up, Kargon went with fightermer1/rangermer 15 in the hopes tempamest II will be fun. eithermer way, going a: Human for one feat, b: 1 levamel of fightermer for secomond feat, and c: will respec out lev 15 feat (STWF) when rangermer 15 can take it through enhancemaments, gets kargon 3 more feats. as in, the 3 feats that were prerequmimisitimes for tempest I

[vasher]

I dont have a ranger but ive build a couple fighters with the ww attack and the cleave/greatcleave, imo the c/gc is way better, the feats required to get ww attack are to many and to small in use compared to power attack, cleave, and great cleave witch you can spam combo off eachother to counter there cooldowns, plus u get another TWO feats going that cleave route because u need dodge, mobility, spring attack, and CE to get ww attack. The feats you get on the way to ww do help a little but only if your jumping/tumbling/hopping everywhere. With cleave/gc u pull agro into a door press 2,3,4,2,3,4 and watch your kill count go though the roof. The only downside to cleave is can pull to much agro sometimes, but hey who are we kidding? You love pulling agro!!!

My other point is, who are the smart player that think luck of heros is good? Feats to me are worth gold, most of them have major impacts on your charicter, a plus 1 to saves is not a major impact. I might and i say MIGHT take it on a charicter with crappy saves twards the end when i have NOTHING else as an option, but i dobt it.

[Fura]

I took the Tempest 1 enhancement on my old 28pts dex build and so far i like it. Here s my feats
1)Finesse
2)Doge
2)mobility
3)improved crit piercing
4)improved crit ranged(i coulnd let it go)
5)Spring atk

I duel wield bodyfeeder rapier of puncturing and icyburst rapier of puncturing. I test it in the Vale and he could kill nearly as fast as my human barbarian max dps build. O and i duel wield banishing rapier to(a must in the vale)

I am still good at range with improved crit ranged combine with manyshot. I am still not sure if i will drop it for power atk tho...

[QuantumFX]

Hmmm...

So far I can say that is has made my rangers even bigger haste junkies than they already were. But thanks to the level cap increase I haven't seen a loss in performance. (I traded Toughness and Mental Toughness on both elves to get Dodge and Mobility.)

With Baalric (see signature) I'm hoping to see a bigger difference. Why? I'm building it into the character and awaiting the actual in play results.