A short question about development

[Ghoste]

Back from work...

The op has said I have made plenty of personal attacks against him, and avoided the topic. Without arguing that point, I would say he has at the very least responded in like manner.

But, to take the high road at this point and get away from that, I will simply continue by summing up my views on the topics of this thread:
-a customer may insist "the customer is always right", but a rude customer is still a rude customer.
-In my opinion, a polite customer (even when complaining) is right far more often that a rude one is.
-I want to hear more communication from Turbine.
-I want to hear in that communication target dates.
-I don't like seeing customers attack Turbine for not meeting those dates. I feel it discourages them from further sharing that kind of information with us.
-I want to see customers remind Turbine of those dates, and remind them when those dates pass, but that can be done without being rude and further discouraging communication.
-I agree with much of what the op wants to see.
-I completely disagree with the chosen methods for attaining that.

For those insisting some have been telling others in this thread to leave the game, I would say there is at least as much of an argument to say that is putting words in other people's mouths.

[MysticTheurge]

so saying you want to play a class whos primary fuction is crafting is silly ...

And we're trying to tell you how artificers don't have to have crafting as their primary function. There's a lot of other stuff they can do. But I can see how that's hard to grasp. I guess.

And your quoting of the class is a violation of copyright.

now i have and it doesnt say anything other then in development not links to dev posts on the specific development of that mod or anything so i dont see its relivance even though it is a step forward.

You wanted to know what they're working on and what's "on the backburner." That's a list of those things.

[Aspenor]

[Jaywade]

I've posted a couple times in this thread me and MT debateing a few things...but asp that was the by far the best post in the thread...by far

[dragonoffrost]

--- Snip----
they did mention a new system adding and that is the crafting system we already know that much at least they are trying to learn from last years aniversary flop ... hope its gonna be as good as we all think cause i still have a feeling if its not done right its gonna cause alot of problems auction house and other wise. I have faith that they will make it work before they launch it which also means i have faith it wont be comming out any time soon. prolly 7 months after they said it would that seems to be there MO on this MMO.
--- end snip ---

The crafting will only affect the AH in one way. Some items won't get posted. How can I say this? In order to use an item for crafting it must be bound as of right now from what I have read about the system. Bound items can not be placed in the AH.

[Elsbet]

I've worked in customer relations of some sort all my life and the customer is very often wrong. The customer, however, is the most important resource of any business, so you do what you can to keep them placated even when they are wrong.

When a customer tries to return an open DVD against policy that is posted in the store and printed on their receipt, they get told no, albeit politely. They might get a coupon or discount on the next DVD IF they are polite and nice. The PITA customer will more likely than not get sent walking unless some customer service rep is willing to risk their job, which they are not likely to do for someone who is being nasty to them.

On a far larger level, my current client (customer) on my contract is absolutely clueless. If I bought her a clue, wrapped it up in a box and slapped a bow on it, she'd bat the bow around like a cat with a catnip toy. To top it off, she is rude and disrespectful too. We're all polite and respectful. We don't tell her where to go even though we would dearly love to do just that. We do, however, tell her she is in error about a great many things, not the least of which is her (complete lack of) understanding of the software development life cycle. We explain it to her, point it out in the statement of work and make a billion extra **** and Jane level powerpoint slides for her to read hoping against all odds that even a dim light bulb will come on.

In the end, the contract went into dispute (her idea) and HER lawyers told her to sit down, shut up, pay us and grant us the contract extension because she was wrong. We said nothing except to offer a different price structure that gave her a HUGE discount on our sevices. We're kicking off the extension, she's gotten slapped her her bosses and we're still getting paid. She was wrong and we told her so. We were just professional about it and allowed her to hang heself.

It might help to remember that the sqeaky wheel doesn't always get the grease. Sometimes it gets yanked off the cart and beaten with a hammer until it quits making noise.

[MysticTheurge]

The crafting will only affect the AH in one way. Some items won't get posted. How can I say this? In order to use an item for crafting it must be bound as of right now from what I have read about the system. Bound items can not be placed in the AH.

You miss the other half of the equation.

In order to improve an item through crafting you need components. Most of these components don't seem to bind.

Thus, you'll soon see a market for components.

[dragonoffrost]

True but other components are already on the AH which will not change anything also.

[MysticTheurge]

True but other components are already on the AH which will not change anything also.

No. There are a lot of new components in Mod 6.

And even if the other things are on the AH already, you're creating a new reason to want them and therefore more demand. So you are changing those things too.

[moorewr]

[Yaga_Nub]

No. There are a lot of new components in Mod 6.

And even if the other things are on the AH already, you're creating a new reason to want them and therefore more demand. So you are changing those things too.

Quit while you're ahead MT!

[Yaga_Nub]

THAT IS SOME FUNNY SHIZZLE!

[Aspenor]

The bunnies are hunting down your bacon cat. Beware.

[moorewr]

The bunnies are hunting down your bacon cat. Beware.

[Drfirewater79]

Back from work...

The op has said I have made plenty of personal attacks against him, and avoided the topic. Without arguing that point, I would say he has at the very least responded in like manner.

But, to take the high road at this point and get away from that, I will simply continue by summing up my views on the topics of this thread:
-a customer may insist "the customer is always right", but a rude customer is still a rude customer.
-In my opinion, a polite customer (even when complaining) is right far more often that a rude one is.
-I want to hear more communication from Turbine.
-I want to hear in that communication target dates.
-I don't like seeing customers attack Turbine for not meeting those dates. I feel it discourages them from further sharing that kind of information with us.
-I want to see customers remind Turbine of those dates, and remind them when those dates pass, but that can be done without being rude and further discouraging communication.
-I agree with much of what the op wants to see.
-I completely disagree with the chosen methods for attaining that.

For those insisting some have been telling others in this thread to leave the game, I would say there is at least as much of an argument to say that is putting words in other people's mouths.

1) your absolutly right but when you spend a year being polite about stuff and not hearing anything back you start to take a different approach .... i am done playing nice cause playing nice didnt get me half the information this post alone got me.
2)yeah we all do
3)i dont really want to get target dates i just want sooner or later so i cant get angry about them missing dates. I want them to say fall and have it come out in summer not the following spring.
4-6)i feel that devulging dates and not achieving them discourages players from staying. That is the real purpose of this post its not the lack of development or that i want to see more of it faster in fact i could be quoted on another thread saying "i would rather the splash screens not say january and have the release be march. if its easier just come out with larger mods every two months instead of minor ones ever month that way you'll never be late."

I have written about 15 non threatening post threads about the future of the game and just wanting devs to drop a couple yes or nos on certian topics .... in the near two years i have been on this game not one dev has responded until someone got on the post acting the fool and tempers raising. And instead of them showing up with answers, they show up to warn people of COC ... well if you read far enough to realize there is a COC issue maybe you could answer the freaking questions so that the thread can be closed.

not that this apporach is working much better for getting devs opinions but at least i got MT angry enough to give me links to answer some questions.

ps

the pics are funny yes but really have nothing to do with the discussion ... i mean dont get me wrong we needed the spirt lightening but now its going a little to far ... come on guys this is serious discussion.

The crafting will only affect the AH in one way. Some items won't get posted. How can I say this? In order to use an item for crafting it must be bound as of right now from what I have read about the system. Bound items can not be placed in the AH.

You miss the other half of the equation.

In order to improve an item through crafting you need components. Most of these components don't seem to bind.

Thus, you'll soon see a market for components.

Actually if you listen to the gamespy webcast and read the article that MT posted you will see that they say that the current crafting that is implamented in mod 6 is raid loot that is augmented by the stones in question. but the crafting system is still to come in mod 7 ... mod 6's raid crafting shrine is the prototype for mod 7's crafting workbenches.

the mod 6 one will allow you to craft bound items with jems found in the raid with over 1200 different combos to start the actual crafting workbenches in mod 7 (still an assumption cause they did say a new game engine and new crafting system in basically the same paragraph) which hasnt been talked about being bound only. which means people are gonna craft +5 vopals and flood the market with them or flood the market with +! vorpals cause you can use them at lower levels ... for the first while all the items will be expensive and then people will start doing it themselves and no one will buy anything but +5 adamantine weapons from auction house and collectables/tomes

i am the first one to say i would love to craft weapons but really all i wanted was the same craft experience i got out of NWN so i could make my disturbingly ugly armor and make it look good and so people would stop the whole everyone is wearing the same armor cause it has the best benifit.

personally i am looking forward to crafting a +5 mythral FP but not sure that you wont need the armor to be made of the right material before augmenting it anyway cause ..... theres no real information about the mod 7 crafting ideas other then a slight mention that there will be one differnet in style from the mod 6 raid one.

ps

the forgery issue

it wasnt copied right out of the book the wording used to describe is nothing more then an overview you couldnt play the class with just what i gave you. and because it is not a direct copy it falls under the d20 rules set by WOTC which allows a player to create his own classes and publish them in open forum so i think i will call it ...

... "The usless Artificer" to get around that issue.... lol

[Aspenor]

3)i dont really want to get target dates i just want sooner or later so i cant get angry about them missing dates. I want them to say fall and have it come out in summer not the following spring.

What kind of dream world of project management are you living in? If they say there is a fall target date, then that's the target not the summer. Unforeseen complications in the critical path can come up which alter target dates.

At the very most Turbine is guilty of not giving themselves any wiggle room when they probably should give themselves a little more. However, if they did that, then people would get up in arms about not having a specific target date.

[Drfirewater79]

And we're trying to tell you how artificers don't have to have crafting as their primary function. There's a lot of other stuff they can do. But I can see how that's hard to grasp. I guess.

You wanted to know what they're working on and what's "on the backburner." That's a list of those things.

a) Artificers will not make up the same as a arcane trickster build right now for two reasons a one level rouge arcane trickster build still gets all the spells a straight caster has and damage output is only affected by spells that have the max 20 in there /lvl adding on damage (eg. 1d6/lvl (max 20d6) ) because they will only have 19 lvls of caster with that one level of rouge and a high int for being a wizard the disable device open lock search and spot(being the one least needed cause once you know where the traps are spot dont matter anymore) and umd are easy to achieve workable stats even in comparison to many current full rouges. as well an artificer at max level only has 4 of each spell meaning there spell points will rival palidans so they wont actually beable to cast all that much at all makeing them useless as casters and pointless as rouges vs and arcane trickster build

artificers wont make up for straight rouges because they already can umd and rouges abilities like sneak attack which is what makes a full rouge inticing as well as evasion wont be there in an artificer. the artificers disable special ability cannot be used in an mmo cause most mobs in most missions (again not all but the exceptions are rare) are immune to the traps anyway. so the ability to disarm a trap without disabling it and allowing party members to pass through without activating it wont matter cause mobs dont activate traps we do and if they cant get hurt by them then bipasing them is pointless. plus the artificer has 4 less base attack bonus then a straight rouge/ranger/bard and 5 less then palidan/fighter which alot of people have mixed with umd classes for the umd boost aswells. so that proves why there wont make it as melee'rs rangers or casters they dont heal on there own with exception to wands with umd so that makes them less usefull then bards and clerics .... why would i want to be one again?

the only way i can see it being worth while is if you planned on crafting items to sell in auction house and all that leads to is half the player base doing nothing but grinding and that is what lead to the down fall of SWG because the thing that sells an mmo is community. people play mmos cause of the people they meet and form relationships with good and bad. if the game turns into a grind its gonna be just like all the games we hate WOW SWG EQ all the games that where ruined by lack of partying and questing in place of grinding and selling.

I love the bound items only can get crafted idea and dont mind a market flood of collectables especially once the vorpal formula gets to be common knowledge but really once that happens why buy anything on the auction house except collectables and tomes?

Geroge lucas after first year of SWG "I will never let another Star Wars MMO come out, when this one goes thats it" and its likely to be the same response from WOTC and Atari should this game fail ...... that is what i am trying to avoid.

again i am not saying that artificers wouldnt be a welcome addition to DDO .... at some point ... but i do believe there are at least 5 classes that would both increase the player base (which should be the goal of the development team) and cause more people to create new characters to help the noobs get used to the game and its speed (alot of new players have a hard time keeping up because zerging is so popular at low levels) here is a basic list and reasons why they should be added before artificer

class reasons why there important to DDO
Warmages - the most played class added to the 3.5 DnD world and there spell lists coinside with sorcs and wizards allowing them
to kill two birds with one spell update. If they use players handbook II rules for eclectic learning in association with
advanced learning you will see them slowly start to take the place of many a wizard. the ability to cast what ever spell
when ever without memorizing or using a spell book would also see many sorcs change there ways as well as
warmages add there int bonus to base damage for evoc spells(the base of the spells they are allowed to cast)
In a game like DDO where casters get the most agro on whole the ability to wear medium armor and have no spell faliure
is another reason why Warmages would be popular here +5 mythral fp on a caster with a good enough dex to use it
and no spell faliure .... come on think about it.

Swashbucklers - on top to requireing near no special graphics like monk and druid do there abilities are fairly basic but would be
a welcome addition because it another fighter ac class and has weapon finesse at first level... as well as being a
base class in ebberon.

Druids - possibly the hardest class to implament which explains why when it was said it would be launched soon after beta
everyone knew it wouldnt be launched for at least two years after. but because it was talked about it should be the next
big focus ... this allows for a whole new out take on casters fighters and healers cause druids can take the place of all of
them in a party. this also opens doors to polymorph abilities which the games casters would surely be happy with.
As well as being the most common class played since there origional release and being in one way or another the reason
why games like diablo II and EQ became so popular. This would (much like was said by devs in year one ddo about druids)
give casters there familiars and rangers there companions. something many PnP'rs have been angery about since launch.

Shugenia - basically what so many one level sorcs 13 lvl clerics hoped to achieve only difference is they can cast any spell without
preparing. so more spell points then average cleric and you dont have to choose between mass heals and damage
dealing spells. this will make dps clerics heal better and healer clerics will get more play options. As well as elemental
damage booster that might have some sorcs going one level of shugenia as well.plus in ddo we are always looking for
another healing class and a way to distinguish between dps and cleric.

Warlock - this like druid and monk would take sometime to develop properly but its got to be one of the greatest additions to NWNII
from atari and WOTC dnd 3.5 between eldrich blash and invocations and dr on a caster the reasons are overwelming.
aside from making invocations work like metamagic feats it might not be as hard to apply but its a class unlike any other
casting class.

that is just 5 of the ones i think would work in the game better then artificer based on current races available for highest dps and healing/casting abilities classes to function as ac builds even on dual weilders (swashbucklers) and casters (warmage). as well as there sell ability based on popularity of the class in actual quest play and previous achievement in other games(druid + warlock).
some easy to implament because most of the abilities are the same (Swashbucklers, shugenia) and others that would be difficult but worth while (warlock). But one thing they all have in common is they are more usefull in DDO for questing then the artificer.

[Drfirewater79]

What kind of dream world of project management are you living in? If they say there is a fall target date, then that's the target not the summer. Unforeseen complications in the critical path can come up which alter target dates.

At the very most Turbine is guilty of not giving themselves any wiggle room when they probably should give themselves a little more. However, if they did that, then people would get up in arms about not having a specific target date.

ah you must be new to the discussion ... the point is if they know its gonna be done in fall no matter what say winter cause then it will be released in winter not spring the next year

does that explain it better.

[MysticTheurge]

artificers wont make up for straight rouges because they already can umd and rouges abilities like sneak attack which is what makes a full rouge inticing as well as evasion wont be there in an artificer.

Ok, I'm not sure how to say this any simpler.

Artificers get a bunch of abilities that allow them to a) improve their equipment on the fly and b) get more out of items they UMD. These abilities are unique to artificers and will be quite useful in DDO.

I'd like to see the straight rogue who can maximize and empower their wands.

Or "arcane trickster" who can make a weapon vorpal on the fly.

Yeah, there's no reason to be an artificer.

the only way i can see it being worth while is if you planned on crafting items to sell in auction house

That's because you clearly have no grasp on what an artificer is capable of.

[MysticTheurge]

ah you must be new to the discussion ... the point is if they know its gonna be done in fall no matter what say winter cause then it will be released in winter not spring the next year

does that explain it better.

So basically, you're advocating that they lie to us about what they're planning.

You should get together with the "We just want you to communicate" people and have a little chat. Maybe over a cup of tea. I'm sure you guys can work something out.