Max DPS TWF Build

[Westerner]

That is a problem. His statement was that I should assume he's right, and if I don't then he doesn't know how else to explain it. How would you react to that?

I don't tell people to assume I'm right. What I said was

-human takes khopesh with his free bonus feat and STR enhancements
-dwarf takes axe with his "free" feat (to use your approach) and axe enhancements
-assume, for the sake of argument, that khopesh + STR out-damages d-axe + enhancements

I was attempting to establish ground rules for the comparison. In so doing, I used the phrase "for the sake of argument", which as I understand it, means to temporarily assume something is true, which will later be A) proven true B) proven false by contradiction C) shown to be unnecessary or immaterial. It is a phrase used in debate/analysis to propose a theory.

If the numbers check out, we have successfully argued that the human has the edge over the dwarf.

My very next sentence addressed how it will be proven, i.e., by running the numbers. If we had gained agreement on methodology, next step would have been to go into the math. But we didn't connect, so I don't think more math will help. There's already been too much math and not enough ground rules discussion in this thread.

[maddmatt70]

Wow, I didn't realize that my guy having a Con that's 2 lower than yours was gimping him so much. Guess I better reroll him straight away. Or I could just use more enhancements to raise it to the same as yours, but I won't of course cos your talking nonsense.

If your build used Dwarven Toughness then you'd have 66 more HP instead of 16 and maybe I'd take your comments seriously. But you don't.



See when you say crazy things like that you just invite smart ass replies such as 'Um, every TWF except Renegade of course'.

Which brings me back to this build, it's ok, but certainly not the Max TWF DPS as you claim. Both Renegade's and Illuminati's do it better I'm afraid.

You're THF was spot on - this one /meh.

*edited*

Your forgetting the dwarven con enhancements which add another +2 so even if you give your human another +1 through adabtability which is a +3 net to con. By the way there is also spell defense, etc... Dwarves are superior defensively to other races which is where they are really better, but they also have comparable to superior offense...

[juniorpfactors]

what AC are most of you guys running around with....mine is terrible and trying to decide if i should reroll...i usually... use dual W/P ss... or +5icy burst rapiers

[boldarblood]

what AC are most of you guys running around with....mine is terrible and trying to decide if i should reroll...i usually... use dual W/P ss... or +5icy burst rapiers

Your AC matters not at all.

[Cold_Stele]

Your forgetting the dwarven con enhancements which add another +2 so even if you give your human another +1 through adabtability which is a +3 net to con. By the way there is also spell defense, etc...

Quite true - but you're talking 12 AP to get +3 Con. Sure if you've got AP to burn then it's there if you want it, but I'd suggest Dwarven Barbs have a lot they'd like to spend their AP on.

Sure Dwarves have Spell Defense but none-Dwarves can add a huge +9 to their Will saves whilst raging. With Barbs (definitely not with the other classes) this advantage is somewhat mitigated.

And yes, that -4 to hit is part of what magnifies the axe's advantage there.

Hadrian I may have trivialized your point about high AC and/or moving favoring DA for which I apologize. Now I have the time I'll try to explain why I'm less concerned about that issue -

1. End game you should always have GH on, especially in the high end elite content where you need the + to hit and saves. The onus is somewhat on the player to farm at least one gird from XC but casters should be helping out too.

2. High AC is, what, 5% of the game content? Maybe less? AC's were lowered a long time back to give the squishies chance to hit too. I'll take the style that out-damages 95% of content any day.

3. Chasing mobs doesn't work regardless of your to hit as the engine is bugged and you can't generate to hit rolls. The best tactic is to hit Intimidate and pull stuff to you. It's the #1 skill for increasing DPS in DDO. Any DPS build without it should be asking some serious questions of themselves.

4. Humans can hit HV attack boost if they do come across something they can't hit.

5. If all else fails, just switch off PA. Takes a second to get it off/on again.

6. In the absence of STWF being implemented there's currently room in pure Barb builds to take OTWF.

So whilst I agree there is some issue with hitting/missing affecting DPS, it is pretty easy to hit everything in the game. I've never needed to use HV Attack Boost on my Ftr for example, but a maxed Ftr's THF PA to hit is identical to a maxed Barb's (but not the damage obviously).

[Shade]

Quite true - but you're talking 12 AP to get +3 Con. Sure if you've got AP to burn then it's there if you want it, but I'd suggest Dwarven Barbs have a lot they'd like to spend their AP on.

No its not. It's 10 AP for +4 con vs human.
Human all you do is tout the +1 str like its god, so yea take that. Greater adaptability con too most would go then. thats 4 AP.

10 AP - 4 =
6 AP for +3 con.

3/4 con makes a huge difference.

And yea there's better things to spend the AP on, like DR boost, thast not the point. This build has a very optimal use of action points for excellent tanking and max dps, I don't see any human version nearly as well made.

[Shade]

Sure Dwarves have Spell Defense but none-Dwarves can add a huge +9 to their Will saves whilst raging. With Barbs (definitely not with the other classes) this advantage is somewhat mitigated.

... Will saves are not the only reason you take dwarven spell resistance, and rage bonus will save alone are never enough to make the hard ones reliably. Reflex are just as important, and there something every human barbarian tends to be very lacking in... But this build gets an excellent reflex save:
Amont - type:
5 - Base
7 - Dex (24 as posted with +5 item)
4 - Resist item, i use a cloak
4 - Greater hero
20 - pretty poor really, you will fail most spells vs any type of hard content and take huge damage as a result. High end DC's vs spells are around 30-35, so 50% at best.
Add in Dwarven spell resistance for a huge +5 to that reflex save
Now your at 25 and taking a ton less dmg.. Then use the 5 uncanny dodges this build gets effectively, and your at 31 for a limited time, and not fialing many reflex save spells at all.

Actually thinking about it, this applyes to ALL reflex saves in the game, not just spells. Because the only other ones are traps - and this build gets +5 saves vs traps due to trap sense, so it evens out.

DR Boost and excellent saves may not be straightforward DPS increasers - but they are absolutely key to performing well as a barbarian. Throwing together a build without these things and calling it a great barbarian build is exactly why barbarians get a bad reputation vs fighters quite often... Not allot realise the small things like this can make all the difference.

[mgoldb2]

3/4 con makes a huge difference.

Huge difference? In your own words in your orginal post you could drop extend rage with right eqipment because rage last plenty long. So am guessing the extra 12-24 secounds not the huge difference. Is it the 2 fort save that at least my humen barb can hit over 30 easy already or is it the 32 hp making the huge difference (which I find hard to believe 32 hp making such a huge difference)?

[Finvara]

Perhaps it's that you don't have to pick between those three things, but instead get them all, that makes it a huge difference, neh? ~_^

[mgoldb2]

Perhaps it's that you don't have to pick between those three things, but instead get them all, that makes it a huge difference, neh? ~_^

I would disagree since extra rage time mean 0 in most quests I not ran out in a very very long time.
2 fort saves means nothing since as shade him self pointed out many times you don’t need over 30 almost anywhere.
32 hp make a minor difference.

So 2 things that make 0 difference and 1 that make a minor difference don’t equal a huge difference.

Now dont get me wrong I admit freely that dwarves get some huge advantages mainly in saves and axe damage but I just dont see the con being a big deal at all.

[Shade]

32hp is NOT a minor difference. It's a massive increase.

People think the toughness feat is worthwhile, and that gives 18 hp.. For an entire feat - 1/5th of the major boosts to your character. Nearly double that for some action points? awesome.

Fort save? I say that for THIS build, not in comparison to weak humans that fort save isn't an issue. Humans have to worry about fort save as they do have a much lower one.. -2 from the con, -5 from the resistance, an additional -2 from no poison resistance for poison saves.. It doesn't matter for dwarves as they get all these bonuses anyways - in comparison to humans - its a difference of 9 points on poison saves - which is MASSIVE. And even matters in the end game... The other night I recall some humans getting killed by Arraetrikos disease and poisons, now certainly they had poison immunity and disease immunity items, but they were both belts so they could not wear both at the same time - fairly common problem.

Again - the dropping extend rage only applies to this build and only to a VERY specific character.. One with a +2 con tome and a +6 con item on... As that gives roughly 3 minuit rages with extend rage III - which I found adequate in most cases. If you do not have that tome and +6 item - you will need it and every point of con you can get. I actually ran out of rage with 36 con, 7 rages and extend III in the new raid too, so im considering getting extend IV back.

And the rage loss is much longer then you said. -4 con = 12 seconds BASE.... x2 for extend rage IV = 24 seconds, x8 for max rages = 192 seconds less rage time. Thats very significant.

So yea compare it correctly or don't compare it at all. It is huge difference.

So quick proper numbers of con related effects human vs dwarf:
Fort save +7 for dwarf (vs spells) or +9 vs poison spell
+32 HP
+192 seconds rage length

That is a massive difference.

[Hadrian]

2. High AC is, what, 5% of the game content? Maybe less? AC's were lowered a long time back to give the squishies chance to hit too. I'll take the style that out-damages 95% of content any day.

Yes, but these tend to be the red and purple named things where the difference in DPS might have a measurable impact. In other encounters too few swings are needed to actually notice these slight DPS differences. If we're dealing with normal un-named guys that take more than a few combat rounds to down by DPS, we are better off using w/p or insta-kill in any case. DPS has failed us already from a perspective of minimum TTK (time to kill).

3. Chasing mobs doesn't work regardless of your to hit as the engine is bugged and you can't generate to hit rolls. The best tactic is to hit Intimidate and pull stuff to you. It's the #1 skill for increasing DPS in DDO. Any DPS build without it should be asking some serious questions of themselves.

I have found that running ahead of the target just a little bit so that I can turn into them and put my shoulder in front of their shoulder often lets me attempt a trip and get a combat roll. You have to assume it's a few steps ahead of where you see it. Land the trip and they're easy to attack. Miss the swing and you won't land the trip. Even if the trip misses, your barbarian speed + haste allows you to hold that position and keep swinging until aggro changes sometimes.

4. Humans can hit HV attack boost if they do come across something they can't hit.

You won't come across something you can't hit. It's a minor swing in DPS between two weapons that are close, but yes, you can make the point that for 1:40 of action boost per rest the khopesh is clearly in the lead in DPS, unless you use it late and have to pause for the activation before you start attacking.

5. If all else fails, just switch off PA. Takes a second to get it off/on again.

We're talking a difference of 1-2 to hit here. You're not going to be missing on a 19 while the dwarf hits on a 2. It's a minor, but always present effect on DPS. Turning off power attack or not upgrading it to the maximum +8/-8 is actually a good idea once you get to around 40 AC (very roughly).

6. In the absence of STWF being implemented there's currently room in pure Barb builds to take OTWF.

Sure, but we've already talked about this. There is no benefit in staying pure barb for 15 and 16 as the game stands right now. Just don't then.

So whilst I agree there is some issue with hitting/missing affecting DPS, it is pretty easy to hit everything in the game. I've never needed to use HV Attack Boost on my Ftr for example, but a maxed Ftr's THF PA to hit is identical to a maxed Barb's (but not the damage obviously).

You seem to keep looking at the to-hit issue as all-or-nothing. If you're doing 30 swings in 20 seconds, you should by average miss 1.5 swings. The difference we're seeing might mean you miss 3-4 swings instead of 1.5. This has an effect on DPS but it won't make you feel like you can't hit your target. A missed swing deals no damage for the same amount of time, and the numbers are close enough that this matters.

I added my comments in red.

[Cold_Stele]

32hp is NOT a minor difference. It's a massive increase.

People think the toughness feat is worthwhile, and that gives 18 hp.. For an entire feat - 1/5th of the major boosts to your character. Nearly double that for some action points? awesome.

Forget the theoretical maximum of what you can get your Con to - neither of your builds invests that much in enhancements (one has +1 the other +2 right?). If it was really that important you'd spend the AP yourself to raise Con. But you haven't.

So the Human is just 16 hp and 1 Fort save behind you. Not the big deal you're making it out to be.

True that's as much as the Toughness feat. You're exagerating a little when you say Toughness is a worthwhile feat however. On it's own it's junk. Barely anyone took Toughness until the enhancement system gave you +50 HP for doing so.

I'm not going to say you don't make some good points cos you do. But it's more than a little subjective and out of proportion.

Dwarf has some minor advantages over Human for Barbs - ok and everything in *some areas* but nothing too uber. It's a completely different story with Dwarf Fighters, which absolutely outshine every other race with their Armor Mastery, Spell Resistance, Tactics and Toughness (a Dwarf Ftr can get +100 HP from Toughness enhancements).

So to summarise -

Dwarf Ftr>than any other Ftr.

Dwarf Barb - some bonuses - some more HP, Con and Spell Resistance, a little more Rage length - but every Barb regardless of race gets bucketloads of these anyway.

Dwarves big bonus used to be in Dwarven Axe Attack and Damage of course. But it looks like Turbine have hit that one with a nerf bat by introducing Green Steel weapons, however - not an axe in sight.

[Cold_Stele]

High AC is, what, 5% of the game content? Maybe less? AC's were lowered a long time back to give the squishies chance to hit too. I'll take the style that out-damages 95% of content any day.

Yes, but these tend to be the red and purple named things where the difference in DPS might have a measurable impact. In other encounters too few swings are needed to actually notice these slight DPS differences. If we're dealing with normal un-named guys that take more than a few combat rounds to down by DPS, we are better off using w/p or insta-kill in any case. DPS has failed us already from a perspective of minimum TTK (time to kill).

You're response stopped making sense about here I'm afraid.

You're saying that for 95% of the game's content it's pointless trying to optimize builds cos the DPS diference isn't noticeable and we should all pull out our W/P Rapiers or PK rather than strive towards better builds?

Wow, just wow.

Sorry if there was anything of value in the rest of your post but I didn't make it through.

[Hadrian]

You're response stopped making sense about here I'm afraid.

You're saying that for 95% of the game's content it's pointless trying to optimize builds cos the DPS diference isn't noticeable and we should all pull out our W/P Rapiers or PK rather than strive towards better builds?

Wow, just wow.

Sorry if there was anything of value in the rest of your post but I didn't make it through.

I am saying that statistically, if you have to swing more than X number of times, then various kinds of instat-kill weapons become superior. I don't follow why that is unacceptable thinking.

For example, if you have banishing daggers, odds are (very basically) you will banish every 5th swing. If you are taking more than 3 rounds to DPS something, you will banish it before you kill it with DPS the vast majority of the time.

How do we figure this out? Assume for each attack there is a 20% chance to critical hit. Then in one combat round (pre STWF) we have 7 attacks. That is approximately a 79% chance to banish something every full TWF combat round (7 attacks). By the end of two combat rounds, you're at about 95.6%. By the end of 3 combat rounds, if you haven't rolled one critical, something is wrong. We're at 99.8% now.

Everything has its limits. It's good to know the limits of DPS when making a build designed around it. I don't assume it's difficult for someone talking about high end raid gear to get a banishing dagger or two.

Not many things are going to last 3 full combat rounds against a DPS build such as this. That is why they are viable. However, in that tiny sample of swings, it's going to be very difficult to distinguish the difference in DPS from the random variations caused by the die rolls unless we're at one extreme of AC or the other where the weapons pull away from eachother.

I put it in simpler terms when I said that the 5% you spoke of is where you're most likely to see the impact of the differences we're all examining here.

[Cold_Stele]

I am saying that statistically, if you have to swing more than X number of times, then various kinds of instat-kill weapons become superior. I don't follow why that is unacceptable thinking.

Everything has its limits. It's good to know the limits of DPS when making a build designed around it. I don't assume it's difficult for someone talking about high end raid gear to get a banishing dagger or two.

You're completely and utterly off on a tangent.

This is the Barbarian forum.

None of us can cast PK.

There's maybe a couple of guys on here with W/P Rapiers.

The rest of us hit stuff as hard as we possibly can with an assortment of sharp and blunt instruments.

I run through the new content with a bunch of sword and board Ftrs from my guild who have Banishing Rapiers and a spare feat for Imp Crit - Pierce.

The new content is probably the stuff they've got the highest kills in, but they still cannot match maxed THF PA. Not by a long shot.

For the 99% of us who don't dual wield W/P your comments make absolutely no sense.

[Hadrian]

You're completely and utterly off on a tangent.

This is the Barbarian forum.

None of us can cast PK.

There's maybe a couple of guys on here with W/P Rapiers.

The rest of us hit stuff as hard as we possibly can with an assortment of sharp and blunt instruments.

I run through the new content with a bunch of sword and board Ftrs from my guild who have Banishing Rapiers and a spare feat for Imp Crit - Pierce.

The new content is probably the stuff they've got the highest kills in, but they still cannot match maxed THF PA. Not by a long shot.

For the 99% of us who don't dual wield W/P your comments make absolutely no sense.

You're just being obtuse. I am not saying 95% of the content is above DPS. I am saying that if you were to find something that required the number of swings necessary to get a big enough sample to see the difference, you'd be better off approaching it another way, because it would be taking you forever to DPS whatever that target is.

Even trolls on elite Madstone Crater don't last that long. Very few orange names last that long. We're talking about you dishing out roughly 1500-2000 damage in this time.

I didn't say anything about PK. Instant kill weapons include smiting, banishing, and vorpal. Everyone has these. Puncturing works quite well if you can't afford w/p, especially on a barbarian. But that's all beside the point. You're trying to make me out to say that 95% of the content has more than 1500 hit points. That isn't what I am saying.

Yes, absolutely if something takes more than 3 full combat rounds you're better off trying something other than pure DPS. Honestly how many things exist out there that take you more than 3 full combat rounds with your DPS build? Exactly. That is my point.

DPS builds are viable because this is true. You're making me out to say something which is the opposite of what my point actually is.

[mgoldb2]

I was thinking about it from my human barb build that I cant remeber last time I ran out of rages. Who fort saves with boosts I normally use always at least 30 which is the number you specifically gave in many threads that you needed. I am at over 500hp self boosted and I never wish I had more.

So from real game experience I just cant see how the 4 con could be making such a huge difference.

Now yes my char is well equip he was rolled ~mod 2 so had a long time to get everything he needed. Maybe it make a bigger difference early on but end game 2/4 con is minor.

[sigtrent]

So yea compare it correctly or don't compare it at all. It is huge difference.

So quick proper numbers of con related effects human vs dwarf:
Fort save +7 for dwarf (vs spells) or +9 vs poison spell
+32 HP
+192 seconds rage length

That is a massive difference.

I agree to an extent. They do matter and they are good benefits. Dwarf is about as good as mulit classing paladin when it comes to saves. Their save bonuses are an incredible benefit!

But I would add that a lot of these discussions for the human barbarian are about DPS, and "max dps" to be specific. Its silly to defend the human build as being just as durable because it's not. It's the title of this thread and your build that causes the problem. It should have been "Dwarven DPS TWF Barbarian" or some such and no would have said a peep about it as it's very solid and delivers great DPS. It's that whle "MAX" thing that brings out the pointy sticks. If you claim "MAX" make sure you deliver on it.

Overall I'd go dwarf over human for barbarian unless I had some build requirement that made human more attractive. UMD is a good example, and eeking out every last ounce of damage at the cost of... well anything else is another.

[brshelton]

Shade I will start by saying your build is a good build. The problem people are having (I think) and myself are having is you put MAX DPS. That means Highest possible no holds barred tooth and nail **** em up. Here are two weapon comparisons. Duel Full Greensteel Khopeshes with Full upgrades win. Before you respond rudely keep in mind I favor your build over the human equivalent but max DPS it is not. These are Acid of Holy Burst Khopeshes.

First Comparison
Deathnipx2 VS Duel +4 Greater Bane Dwarven Axes with FULL Axe Enhancements and a Bloodstone
http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/...ac=10&maxac=60
Deathnip Wins until about a 60 AC

Now forgetting Axes
Duel +5 Acid of Holy Burst Greensteel Khopeshes vs Duel Deathnip
i used the sneak attack field for the acid and holy damage average of 3 per a d6 for a total of 9 a hit

http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/...ac=10&maxac=60

Math has been fixed