Max DPS TWF Build

[Westerner]

I didn't say I didn't understand the idea. I just said that comparing +5 weapons is comparing +5 weapons, not weapons too high in level to be +5. Obviously using just +5 weapons skews the results away from what you'd actually see using real weapons, but it was your idea afterall, and you set the limitations. If we're going to make that comparison then we should stick to the limits, or you should revise what you said about +5 weapons being a useful comparison for new players.

I guess we saw the purpose of the +5 weapons comparison differently. I meant it as a reference point, not a hard ceiling, and felt it was useful to look at reasonable DPS growth potential since Shade labelled this a "MAX DPS" build.

Secondly, you have to-hit problems with your offhand if you do that with power attack on. It drastically reduces your to-hit in the off-hand (more than the difference between the OTWF feat that is a big part of the discussion), and you need a well-equipped character to overcome that. This set up actually makes power attack something you'd want to turn off if your target has 30 AC, and the plain pair of +5 dwarven axes (power attack off) take a significant lead at the end of the curve.

My understanding was that offhand attacks suffered only with regard to STR damage, not to-hit. If that is correct, then PA would not affect offhand any more than main hand. Or is there another factor I am overlooking?

[Cowdenicus]

but my bursting picks of maiming beat out dwarven axes any day of the week.

[Hadrian]

I guess we saw the purpose of the +5 weapons comparison differently. I meant it as a reference point, not a hard ceiling, and felt it was useful to look at reasonable DPS growth potential since Shade labelled this a "MAX DPS" build.

The point being that I was told my comparison was incorrect, but that was only true if a weapon of a much higher level than I was comparing was brought in. So basically, it's not true.

Though you can make it true with a +5 seeker 8 weapon, that seems to me to have lost the point of the comparison. We're comparing a plain, low level weapon in the main hand with a rare, near raid-level item. (You can find a +5 seeker 10 in the Titan, or I am sure we're all aware of a +5 seeker 8 pick.) So if we disagree there, then we do see a different purpose in the comparison.

My understanding was that offhand attacks suffered only with regard to STR damage, not to-hit. If that is correct, then PA would not affect offhand any more than main hand. Or is there another factor I am overlooking?

Yes, a +5 weapon adds +5 to hit. A +2 weapon only adds +2.

[Westerner]

I ran the numbers again using the latest version of the Weapon Comparison Tool that calculates DPS and main/offhand TWF.

Results:
Picks are very slightly better (~1%) up to AC28
Axes are somewhat better (~5%) at AC40

Inputs:
+16 BAB
+15 STR
+5 dual dwarven axes / +5 dual heavy picks
+2 Crit Rage
+4 GH
PA enabled with Barb PA III
Axe Attack I & Axe Damage II (cost 8AP)
GTWF
Improved Critical

Customizing this analysis:
More (Less) to-hit favors the picks (axes)
More (Less) damage favors the picks (axes)
Seeker favors the picks
Elemental Damage favors the axes

[Aeneas]

This post may be irrelevant if things change, but as of right now, wouldn't a twf human barb with khopesh feat and a pair of +5 green steel khops outdamage a dwarf with +5 d-axes?

(green steel khops are 1d10/19-20/x3 and useable at level 8)

[sigtrent]

This post may be irrelevant if things change, but as of right now, wouldn't a twf human barb with khopesh feat and a pair of +5 green steel khops outdamage a dwarf with +5 d-axes?

(green steel khops are 1d10/19-20/x3 and useable at level 8)

Yep. The crit factor would be 12, same as the picks but with better base damage. The Axe +2 attack/damage will still make them better at low damage ranges or agianst hard to hit opponents but once you get into serious high level barbarian territory that will cease to be an issue.

[Shade]

This post may be irrelevant if things change, but as of right now, wouldn't a twf human barb with khopesh feat and a pair of +5 green steel khops outdamage a dwarf with +5 d-axes?

(green steel khops are 1d10/19-20/x3 and useable at level 8)

Yea khopesh will be better in some cases. Vs critical mobs with ac you can hit on a 2. Otherwise the xtra +4 dmg of the dwarf axe, and +2 hit can make the difference.

But yea this is a dwarf build so there no room to get khopesh feat.

Wouldn't make any build decisions based on the green steel weapons we know very little about yet.

[Aeneas]

agreed on that, i sure hope the absence of certain powerful weapons isn't intended. Heck, even a dual wielding elf barb with longswords would be nice with the green steels.

[Westerner]

Though you can make it true with a +5 seeker 8 weapon, that seems to me to have lost the point of the comparison. We're comparing a plain, low level weapon in the main hand with a rare, near raid-level item. (You can find a +5 seeker 10 in the Titan, or I am sure we're all aware of a +5 seeker 8 pick.) So if we disagree there, then we do see a different purpose in the comparison.

I agree that a +5 seeker 8 item should not be part of a new player oriented analysis. But a +2 seeker 8 item can be.
Recrunching the numbers, I get the following examining the effect of seeker on Axes:

+5 Dual Dwarven Axes
AC29 = 102 DPS
AC32 = 99 DPS
AC35 = 93 DPS
AC38 = 84 DPS
AC41 = 74 DPS

+5 Dwarven Axe / +2 Seeker 8 Dwarven Axe
AC29 = 109 DPS
AC32 = 107 DPS
AC35 = 104 DPS
AC38 = 95 DPS
AC41 = 85 DPS

All other inputs are as previously stated. We see a net gain of 7-10% DPS on critable monsters by going with the seeker weapon. The lower to-hit on the offhand weapon is more than offset by the seeker bonus applying to both hands.

Now looking at picks:

+5 Heavy Pick / +2 Seeker 8 Heavy Pick
AC29 120 DPS
AC32 118 DPS
AC35 114 DPS
AC38 107 DPS
AC41 97 DPS

The pick x4 multiplier provides a net gain of 10% DPS over axes using a fairly easy to acquire seeker item.

Conclusion: Picks have more DPS growth potential than axes. Saves 8 AP, too.

[sigtrent]

A little off topic here but I agree about seeker.

For a TWF character a good seeker bonus is really an amazing thing. I don't yet have a character with greater TWF (although my rogue will in one level) but I do have a few with plain old TWF includeng my main. I consistantly do better damage using TWF with a +1 seeker 10 off hand and a DPS Kopesh main hand than I do with my best two hander and much better than when I use an off hand DPS weapon. If I had a bloodstone I don't think I'd run it that way but without one i think its the way to go for TWF DPS on most characters with a good crit factor.

[Shade]

Recrunching the numbers, I get the following examining the effect of seeker on Axes:

Really don't understand your results. With no data to back them up or any actaul build info there based on or anything there not telling anyone much. They do not agree with the dps calc at all. Like I posted many times now, no matter what type of comparison you try, the dwarven axes are always superior.

Here is your example - like my other results this is comparing everything this build has at lvl16. I also manually put in power attack +8 dmg, tho didn't put any negative to hit since really it can be just made up for with greater hero or other to hit bonuses, and doesn't change the conclusion either way.

[Westerner]

Really don't understand your results. With no data to back them up or any actaul build info there based on or anything there not telling anyone much. They do not agree with the dps calc at all. Like I posted many times now, no matter what type of comparison you try, the dwarven axes are always superior.

I have posted complete data sourced from jjflanigan's new weapon comparison tool. My inputs are documented. I invite you to test it for yourself.

There have been issues reported with the Thott tool regarding how it accounts for PA and criticals. Interestingly, when I searched for examples, I found this thread featuring comments from none other than you :

Hah, i knew in my gut that nerd calc (i.e., Thott) was busted and wrong. I didn't even look at it and I know its wrong.

Like I said, no one can properly and accuratley take into account the huge number of factors that play into DPS, so stop even trying and just accept barbarians are the best and multiclassing is a bad idea.

Red added by Westerner

Link to Shade's post

So back then the Thott tool was a busted nerd calc, but now it's the gospel truth, end of story? ROFL!

[Shade]

Far as im concerned neither Thotts tool or Jlflanigans are nearly accurate enough to how really get every variable right to compare weapons in DDO, its just too complex for 1 guy to get 100% right. I certainly don't claim to know the numbers that well. I go based all what I see ingame.

Only reason I posted those comparisons was to show how dumb and made up many of the arguments posted here were. As not the math shows picks as that good, not that I trust it anyways. And browsing the forum has shown Thotts to be the most popular used tool for this by far so I used that one.

Anyways I tried the one you used which seems to favor heavy picks more and still didn't get results like yours.
It showed
101.67 DPS for the Dwarf axes and 102 for the picks...Small enough difference to call them equal in the programs mind. But I trust Thotts more as it shows the calculations where this one doesn't say anything, not even the weapon stats.

Far as im concerned the program is heavily bugged and should be ignored for any serious comparison anyways. It doesn't even calculate half the check boxes in...

When I press "hasted" all it does is give like +1 to hit.. Doesn't increase the DPS by a huge amount like it actually does in the game. Nor do the improved or greater two weapon fighting boxes. Seems like an unfinished program to me.

[Illuminati]

Forget the programs, its simple math guys....

Assumptions:
46 Strength Barb (Raged) = +18 Modifier
A 10 attack sequence since DPS stands for DAMAGE PER SECOND not DAMAGE PER SWING!
Improved Critical Pierce on Pick User
Improved Critical Slash and Dwarven Axe Enhancements +2 on Dwarf *Even though its hard to AP
Power Attack w/ +3 Enhancement
+4 Burst of Pure Good DA *I saw on Auction House
+4 Burst of Pure Good Pick *I saw on Auction House
+6 Seeker from Bloodstone
Crits will be given to MH only

Dwarf w/ Dwarven Axe (Main Hand)
1d10+5 (~10.5) + 1d6 (~3.5 Elemental) + 2 (Enh) + 18 (Strength) + 1d6 (~3.5 Good) +8 Power Attack = 45.5 (Round up 46)
*Critical adds (~20.5 base dmg, +3d10 elemental burst ~15.5, +36 Strength, +16 Power Attack + 18 Seeker) = 152
Dwarf w/ Dwarven Axe (Off Hand)
1d10+5 (~10.5) + 1d6 (~3.5 Elemental) + 2 (Enh) + 9 (Strength) + 1d6 (~3.5 Good) +8 Power Attack = 36.5 (Round up 37)
*Critical adds (~20.5 base dmg, +3d10 elemental burst ~15.5, +18 Strength, +16 Power Attack + 18 Seeker) = 134

Sequence of 10 Swings w/ DA (Crits on 17, 18, 19, 20 x 3) *20% Crit (actually 21%) (MH = Main Hand, OH = Off Hand)
MH (46) + OH (37) + OH (37) + MH (46) + MH (46) + OH (37) + OH (37) + MH CRIT (152) + MH CRIT (152) + OH (37) = 627

*************

Dwarf w/ Heavy Pick (Main Hand)
1d6+5 (~8.5) + 1d6 (~3.5 Elemental) + 18 (Strength) + 1d6 (~3.5 Good) +8 Power Attack = 41.5 (Round up 42)
*Critical adds (~17 base dmg, +4d10 elemental burst ~20.5, +54 Strength, +24 Power Attack + 24 Seeker) = 181.5 (Rounded to 182)
Dwarf w/ Heavy Pick (Off Hand)
1d6+5 (~8.5) + 1d6 (~3.5 Elemental) + 9 (Strength) + 1d6 (~3.5 Good) +8 Power Attack = 32.5 (Round up 33)
*Critical adds (~17 base dmg, +4d10 elemental burst ~20.5, +27 Strength, +24 Power Attack + 24 Seeker) = 145.5 (Rounded to 146)

Sequence of 10 Swings w/ Heavy Pick (Crits on 17, 18, 19, 20 x 4) *20% Crit (actually 21%) (MH = Main Hand, OH = Off Hand)
MH (42) + OH (33) + OH (33) + MH (42) + MH (42) + OH (33) + OH (33) + MH CRIT (182) + MH CRIT (182) + OH (33) = 655

Dwarven Axes = 627
Heavy Picks = 655

HEAVY PICKS ARE BETTER BY 4.3%

So the question is, what is better for a Barb since the highest DPS TWF is obviously a Heavy Pick user.

Slash:
2H Potential when necessary
Easy to Acquire DA's
Higher Attack Bonus w/ Enhancements

Pierce:
Wounding / Puncturing Potential
Higher DPS (second)
Deathnip's would be sick
12 Action Points for something else (Barb Intim = Ownage)

*I reserve the right to deny all mathematical errors based on my inferior education at MIT

-Illuminati

[sigtrent]

Far as im concerned neither Thotts tool or Jlflanigans are nearly accurate enough to how really get every variable right to compare weapons in DDO, its just too complex for 1 guy to get 100% right. I certainly don't claim to know the numbers that well. I go based all what I see ingame.

And therefore your arguments in this thread are especialy weak. You just have a gut feeling that happens to corrispond to whatever build you happen to be playing or promoting. It is your stubornness that gets you so much flack. When you "ran the numbers" you lowballed the damage values for a barbarian and you decided to use a low damage weapon combination. I explained how low damage values favor the axes, but you keep trying to ignore that simple fact so that you can be right overall. You don't even bother to see for yourself if it is true you just puff up and claim you are correct and use your feelings about your subjective in game performance as "proof". Well it doesn't convince anyone.

You are a good and aggressive player so you will out kill a lot of people reguardless of your build's technical benefits. We are talking about narrow margins of DPS here 1-10% at best. It really isn't enough to register in game in the form of kill counts or casual observation.

If your build was titled "Very strong DPS build" I'd have ignored it entirely. But it says "Max DPS" an that is pretty much a challenge for any of us with an inclination to doing builds to make one that is better. I simply pointed out how, Illumnati has gone and actualy made one that is demonstrably better at DPS. All you would have to do is say "Ok so the human pick wielder can post a bit more DPS, I still prefer the dwarf for its other benefits and damage agasint non critable targets." No one could really argue that. But instead you stand your ground despite the rather clear facts/numbers and insist that somehow you have made the best possible DPS build in game by simply maxing strenght, taking TWF and using dwarven axe damage. You didn't truly consider all the options in game for "max DPS" just adopted a simple approach which while extreemly effective doesn't live up to your claim.

[Cold_Stele]

So the question is, what is better for a Barb since the highest DPS TWF is obviously a Heavy Pick user.

The Imp crit guy can Banish too - my guildies with Banishing Rapiers have been tearing the new content up with theirs.

The answer?

If it's an alt - maybe Dwarf Axes.

If it's a main - and/or you're going to invest serious time and plat so that you can one day get some sick Heavy Picks and Rapiers, then maybe Imp Crit route.

Hey Illuminati - do you have the numbers for dual Khopesh? So far of all weapons that have been discussed Khopesh is the only one that comes in Green Steel right?

[Illuminati]

The Imp crit guy can Banish too - my guildies with Banishing Rapiers have been tearing the new content up with theirs.

The answer?

If it's an alt - maybe Dwarf Axes.

If it's a main - and/or you're going to invest serious time and plat so that you can one day get some sick Heavy Picks and Rapiers, then maybe Imp Crit route.

Hey Illuminati - do you have the numbers for dual Khopesh? So far of all weapons that have been discussed Khopesh is the only one that comes in Green Steel right?

Only greeny on our auction atm is the khopesh (1d10 version).

Khopesh would be..

w/ Khopesh (Main Hand)
1d8+5 (~9.5) + 1d6 (~3.5 Elemental) + 18 (Strength) + 1d6 (~3.5 Good) +8 Power Attack = 42.5 (Round up 43)
*Critical adds (~19 base dmg, +3d10 elemental burst ~15.5, +36 Strength, +16 Power Attack + 18 Seeker) = 147
w/ Khopesh (Off Hand)
1d8+5 (~9.5) + 1d6 (~3.5 Elemental) + 9 (Strength) + 1d6 (~3.5 Good) +8 Power Attack = 33.5 (Round up 34)
*Critical adds (~19 base dmg, +3d10 elemental burst ~15.5, +18 Strength, +16 Power Attack + 18 Seeker) = 120

*I'll give the extra crit to the offhand.

Sequence of 10 Swings w/ Khopesh (Crits on 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 x 3) *25% Crit (MH = Main Hand, OH = Off Hand)
MH (43) + OH (34) + OH (34) + MH (43) + MH (43) + OH (34) + OH CRIT (120) + MH CRIT (147) + MH CRIT (147) + OH (34) = 679

Dwarven Axes = 627
Heavy Picks = 655
Khopesh = 679

Hmm, seems that Khopesh is 8% better than DA and 4% better than Heavy Picks. Deathnips would trounce it but perhaps until then you slash/khopesh it =)

So, other than deathnip, khopesh > all.

[Hadrian]

Better by 4.3% excluding the chance to miss, which is higher for the pick user. This lowers the gap as AC increases until axes eventually take over. 4.3% is less than a one AC-point difference at the higher AC range.

The argument about the dwarf not having OTWF is no longer valid with level 16 and no superior TWF feat. The dwarf will have OTWF too.

I have posted complete data sourced from jjflanigan's new weapon comparison tool. My inputs are documented. I invite you to test it for yourself.

There have been issues reported with the Thott tool regarding how it accounts for PA and criticals. Interestingly, when I searched for examples, I found this thread featuring comments from none other than you :


So back then the Thott tool was a busted nerd calc, but now it's the gospel truth, end of story? ROFL!

I realize that this was not directed at me, but I was going to say that this calculator has been questioned before as well. I went and checked to see if the old problems that caused me to stop using it were still there, and found that they were not. It's possible they updated/corrected the problem.

Remember that post of his that you quoted is from August. It's possible that in that time they resolved the problems with their calculator.

[Illuminati]

Better by 4.3% excluding the chance to miss, which is higher for the pick user. This lowers the gap as AC increases until axes eventually take over. 4.3% is less than a one AC-point difference at the higher AC range.

The argument about the dwarf not having OTWF is no longer valid with level 16 and no superior TWF feat. The dwarf will have OTWF too.




I realize that this was not directed at me, but I was going to say that this calculator has been questioned before as well. I went and checked to see if the old problems that I remember were still there, and found that they were not. It's possible they updated/corrected the problem.

Remember that post of his that you quoted is from August. It's possible that in that time they resolved the problems with their calculator.

TBH, I woudn't make the dwarf version Heavy Pick, but human. The human has +2 attack bonus over the dwarf (see my build), and that is with the dwarf taking 2x enh for Axe.

So, the MAX DPS TWF 'Build' is a Human w/ Deathnips 14 Barb / 2 Ftr.

[Hadrian]

TBH, I woudn't make the dwarf version Heavy Pick, but human. The human has +2 attack bonus over the dwarf (see my build), and that is with the dwarf taking 2x enh for Axe.

So, the MAX DPS TWF 'Build' is a Human w/ Deathnips 14 Barb / 2 Ftr.

I disagree with your math. You're not factoring in AC at all. Picks are 4.3% better at the extreme end of strength, yes, but only when both builds hit on a 2 or better.

Humans don't have +2 to hit. They can get +1 for the strength bonus over a dwarf, but both builds have room for OTWF at 15, and the dwarf has his axe enhancements.

I suppose the human could take weapon focus to even out the to-hit given that we don't have STWF.