Max DPS TWF Build

[Westerner]

I like the Weapon Comparison Tool by jjflanigan. I used it for a similar Dwarven Axe vs Scimitar comparison and it matched my own Excel calculations. It calculates Damage per Swing, which is a useful reference point.

Results:
Heavy Pick is slightly better (~2&#37 up to a target AC of 41. D-Axe is moderately better (~10%) on AC 44+.

Assumptions based on this build:
16 BAB
+20 STR (EDIT: should be +15)
+5 Weapon
+2 Crit Rage
+4 GH
+2 Axe Enhancements (12AP)
PA enabled
Improved Critical

More To Hit favors the H-Pick
More Damage favors the H-Pick
Seeker favors the H-Pick
Elemental Damage favors the D-Axe

Notes:
The H-Pick user has 12AP to spend on something else.

[Hadrian]

No it doesn't actualy. Get the weapon damage calculator and plug them in. You need to make sure to set up the stats for a barbarian build. The Pick comes out ahead becausee its crit profile and so the more damage bonus you have going the better the picks come out. Seeker is especialy nasty with the picks.

The dwarven axe enhancements do not give it a significant advantage for a barbarian. For a fighter, yes, a ranger, yep, a barbarian with crit rage... nope.

Er, seeker? So you want to compare a +5 dwarven axe with a +5 heavy pick in a way that's useful for new players... who have boodstones?

[Westerner]

Er, seeker? So you want to compare a +5 dwarven axe with a +5 heavy pick in a way that's useful for new players... who have boodstones?

You could use an offhand seeker weapon, poor man's bloodstone. That's what I assume sigtrent meant.

[Hadrian]

You could, but that wouldn't be comparing +5 weapons. If you're using a +1 seeker 6 offhand, you're going to lose a lot of damage for having a +1 offhand weapon, so let the axe guy keep his pair of +5s and have more damage. If you're using a +5 seeker 6, you're using a considerably higher level and more rare weapon.

At the lower levels where you might be using a +5 weapon (and where a new player might be using this information), the axe does more damage across the board. If you're level 14 and using plain +5 weapons, then the axe will do more to high AC and less to low AC, even with the bloodstone.

I'd take the axe guy for the new mod 6 content. Some of the hardest encounters I have seen in there have a very high AC, and cannot be instantly killed with any effects.

Also, keep in mind that this DPS scale is covering the whole attack sequence as if you never move. If you find yourself moving around and only getting in the early +0 and +5 bonus attacks, that curve shifts to an even lower AC where the axe takes over.

[Sillk]

Shade - since this is your build, I was wondering how you would go about making this a heavy pick build (mostly because I already have a toon using Dwarven Axes, and want a different weapon user - I like to diversify).

My original thoughts are to go 16 Str and 18 Dex, because I know I can get a +1 Dex tome by Lvl 16, and don't want to count on getting a +3, and finding a +3 Str tome should be just as reliable as Dex, but won't break the build.

Do you think going with the higher Dex would gimp the build? Also, since you wouldn't have to spend the time on the Dwarven Axe enhancements, I was thinking of going for the Toughness enhancements instead.

Your thoughts?

Sillk

[sigtrent]

Er, seeker? So you want to compare a +5 dwarven axe with a +5 heavy pick in a way that's useful for new players... who have boodstones?

I'm not talking about new players at all, neither is Shade generaly. The more damage yoru character does, the better the Pick is, the less damage they do the better the axe is. Do you want your barbarian to do more damage or less damage?

[sigtrent]

Also, keep in mind that this DPS scale is covering the whole attack sequence as if you never move. If you find yourself moving around and only getting in the early +0 and +5 bonus attacks, that curve shifts to an even lower AC where the axe takes over.

And this is why I pointed out that if you go heavy picks you should choose human so you can use your bonus feat for oversize two weapon fighting which effectively gives you +2 to hit, bringing you above the axes at all AC targets. The only reason the axe is ever better with a high damage character is the attack bonus.

[tihocan]

Shade - since this is your build, I was wondering how you would go about making this a heavy pick build (mostly because I already have a toon using Dwarven Axes, and want a different weapon user - I like to diversify).

My original thoughts are to go 16 Str and 18 Dex, because I know I can get a +1 Dex tome by Lvl 16, and don't want to count on getting a +3, and finding a +3 Str tome should be just as reliable as Dex, but won't break the build.

There is almost nothing to change to make it a pick build (besides some feat and enhancements).
I don't understand your reasoning, the build is based on obtaining 1750 favor to get a +2 tome before leveling up to 15, something that is rather easy to do now. There is no need for a +3.

[Shade]

Yep the build is designed to be flexible and reasonable to level up.

At it's core it will eventually become the max possible dps twf build, that could take years of raiding however.

The other advantage to it is that it does scale well and will perform good with any weapons. I intentionnaly left the "Improved Crit" feat blank, as you could select either improved crit slash, or improved crit pierce if you did have allot more heavy picks then dwarven axes. So its a simple matter of picking which damage type you prefer.

There is no need to make heavy changes to build like stats or anything else to switch it to picks or any other weapon. You can also go blunt with some warhamemrs, and select imprve crit blunt.

Starting 16 str 18 dex is a bad move because in the end you end up with the same dex, but a lower strength. IE 16 +4 = 20 base, dex gets to the minimum needed 19.. Or 17 str 17 dex, 17 +4 = 21 str, dex +2 tome gets to the minimum needed.

And at this point is will be extremely easy to get that 1750 favor tome before you need it as you have several months now until the next patch at the minimum.. As Superior two weapon fighting was not added to mod6. In the mean time I recommend stunning blow.. You just swap that for STWF when it comes out.. If it comes out..

Re: comparing mid level damage.. Well no matter what lvl i compare, be it lvl5, lvl10, lvl11, or lvl16 for what i expect the build to have - dwarven axes are always ahead by a bit.
Here is a comparison at level10, each use plain +5 weapons, no seeker, picks uses has IC: pierce, axe uses has IC: slash, DA attack 1, DA dmg 2 (uhh the build normall has the dmg ones, but I messed up and put DA: attack in far too late, it should be gotten around lvl5 and can be, just thats where the enhancement planner put it, its only +1 to hit anyways.
As you can see the dwarven axes are a fair bit ahead, doing the same comparison at lvl11-16 or adding a bloodstone doesn't change the ranking.

[Hadrian]

As you can see the dwarven axes are a fair bit ahead, doing the same comparison at lvl11-16 or adding a bloodstone doesn't change the ranking.

Well, critical rage does, though. The axes start lower and overtake the picks at higher AC if you include the extra 2 critical threat range.

I'm not talking about new players at all, neither is Shade generaly. The more damage yoru character does, the better the Pick is, the less damage they do the better the axe is. Do you want your barbarian to do more damage or less damage?

Westerner said that if we wanted to talk about new players, a +5 weapon comparison would be more meaningful. I responded to this. You quoted my response to his suggestion, and told me I was wrong because you weren't talking about new players. We obviously were.

[Shade]

Well, critical rage does, though. The axes start lower and overtake the picks at higher AC if you include the extra 2 critical threat range.

Nope it does not. Same comparison with crit rage II, at lvl16:

[Hadrian]

Different damage calculators are giving different results.

[sigtrent]

I used the other calculator... cant post those however.

This one does have the +15 attack off. You didn't include barbarian power attack in there. Didn't include the oversize two weapon fighting feat for the pick wielder.

You get this...
Including more variables (although the non power attack numbers are scewed by me including -3/+3 from power attack)

What happens is that the picks are very volatile based on extra damage due to their crit range. So the more flat damage you add, the more the picks move up the chart. The more you take away the worse they get. So if you do lots of damage (and it does take a lot) the picks end up better but if you do less damage the axes are better.

[Shade]

Ok last reply im doing for you sigtent. Your clearly on a rampage trying to do whatever you can to convince yourself something thats not true. I know your not that dumb to make mistakes on calculations every single time you do it, yet somehow you pull it off.

A) We are comparing THIS BUILD. Not some made up build in your mind. Not some build that is human. This thread is for this build. If you wanna compare something else, please start your own thread or post it in the one thats already there for a similar build to this that is human.
B) Oversized two weapon fighting is NOT unique to heavy picks, im not sure where you got the insane idea. This build can go either way, the only difference like i mentioned would be the improved crit. If one wanted oversized two weapon because there Str was too low to hit or whatever, they would take it at lvl15 as superior TWF is not implmented yet.

C) Your comparison, like every single one you posted, is skewed in picks favor and invalid. You purposely like always, did not include axe dmg II, axe attack I, and changed every number you could in favor of the picks. Skewed incorrect results dont interest anyone, stop posting them.

Final reply your getting from me because I don't have time for people who can't discuss a topic intelligently.

[Westerner]

So the more flat damage you add, the more the picks move up the chart. The more you take away the worse they get. So if you do lots of damage (and it does take a lot) the picks end up better but if you do less damage the axes are better.

Correct. Picks have higher DPS growth potential. As to-hit and flat damage bonus increase, the pick x4 crit multiplier eventually overtakes the axe enhancements (mainly due to Barb Crit Rage II). Seeker is even more gravy for the picks.

[Westerner]

I don't have time for people who can't discuss a topic intelligently.

... says the guy who responded earlier in this thread with:

I will never buy into silly picks. I'm an axe guy and have never seen anyone do well with picks in the real game, so until i do my opinion won't change.

and

Do you even play DDO?

and who dismissed sigtrent's argument as

what some random guy thinks up in his head

Have a nice day, Shade.

[Westerner]

You could, but that wouldn't be comparing +5 weapons. If you're using a +1 seeker 6 offhand, you're going to lose a lot of damage for having a +1 offhand weapon, so let the axe guy keep his pair of +5s and have more damage. If you're using a +5 seeker 6, you're using a considerably higher level and more rare weapon.

The idea is that seeker provides DPS growth potential that is reasonably accessible to a new player. Something like an offhand +2 seeker+8 of pure good (~8k PP on AH) will probably raise total DPS for both axes and picks, but will benefit picks more due to the x4 multiplier.

Also, keep in mind that this DPS scale is covering the whole attack sequence as if you never move. If you find yourself moving around and only getting in the early +0 and +5 bonus attacks, that curve shifts to an even lower AC where the axe takes over.

True, the tool I used considers first swing only, with +0 attack bonus. Since more to-hit favors the picks, doesn't first-swing-only represent the best possible case for the axes? While 3rd/4th/5th swings and their +5/+10 hit bonuses will probably occur less frequently than 1st/2nd swings and +0 bonus, the real world case is likely to be better for the picks than I have assumed, as far as attack sequence goes.

[sigtrent]

Ok last reply im doing for you sigtent. .

Suit yourself.

A) We are comparing THIS BUILD. Not some made up build in your mind. Not some build that is human. This thread is for this build. If you wanna compare something else, please start your own thread or post it in the one thats already there for a similar build to this that is human..

I am comparing your build to a similar build using picks but which is human because it includes an additional feat allowing you to take oversize two weapon fighting and human adaptability strength in addition to what you have on this build.

B) Oversized two weapon fighting is NOT unique to heavy picks, im not sure where you got the insane idea. This build can go either way, the only difference like i mentioned would be the improved crit. If one wanted oversized two weapon because there Str was too low to hit or whatever, they would take it at lvl15 as superior TWF is not implmented yet.

I would take it because it raises the to hit bonus. Your build doesn't have room for it without sacrificing another key feat. A human would. Simple as that.

C) Your comparison, like every single one you posted, is skewed in picks favor and invalid. You purposely like always, did not include axe dmg II, axe attack I, and changed every number you could in favor of the picks. Skewed incorrect results dont interest anyone, stop posting them.

Actualy Shade, I simply took the chart you made and edited the inputs to include Barbarian Power attack three, upped the dwarven attack enhancement to 2 instead of 1 and then marked the off hand pick as a light weapon to simulate oversize two weapon fighting. That is all I did to it. They are things you left out of the comparison which I think are important because the pick does better as you increase the damage bonuses. The comparison includes axe damage 2 and axe attack 2. I hardly changed any numbers at all.

Final reply your getting from me because I don't have time for people who can't discuss a topic intelligently.

Just because you happen to be wrong does not make me unintelligent. You have yet to actualy note any errors in my calculations you only claim they are there.

[sigtrent]

True, the tool I used considers first swing only, with +0 attack bonus. Since more to-hit favors the picks, doesn't first-swing-only represent the best possible case for the axes? While 3rd/4th/5th swings and their +5/+10 hit bonuses will probably occur less frequently than 1st/2nd swings and +0 bonus, the real world case is likely to be better for the picks than I have assumed, as far as attack sequence goes.

The Axes have an advantage wtih TWF because the off hand attack is getting a smaller strengh bonus and lower damage bonuses favor the axes. So when I did my original crunching I was just doing the pick in isolation and it was quite a bit better on a very high damage build like this one. I was suprised at the numbers Shade got (Although unlike him I didn't accuse him of making them up) and looking at them I saw how the off hand axe was better than the off hand pick and making up some of the difference. (also his chart was pretty low damage for such a build which favors the axes and he left out the whole OTWF thing which does make a difference in the chart).

[Hadrian]

The idea is that seeker provides DPS growth potential that is reasonably accessible to a new player. Something like an offhand +2 seeker+8 of pure good (~8k PP on AH) will probably raise total DPS for both axes and picks, but will benefit picks more due to the x4 multiplier.

I didn't say I didn't understand the idea. I just said that comparing +5 weapons is comparing +5 weapons, not weapons too high in level to be +5. Obviously using just +5 weapons skews the results away from what you'd actually see using real weapons, but it was your idea afterall, and you set the limitations. If we're going to make that comparison then we should stick to the limits, or you should revise what you said about +5 weapons being a useful comparison for new players.

Secondly, you have to-hit problems with your offhand if you do that with power attack on. It drastically reduces your to-hit in the off-hand (more than the difference between the OTWF feat that is a big part of the discussion), and you need a well-equipped character to overcome that. This set up actually makes power attack something you'd want to turn off if your target has 30 AC, and the plain pair of +5 dwarven axes (power attack off) take a significant lead at the end of the curve.