Max DPS TWF Build

[sigtrent]

Why Human? Be a Dwarf, pick the critable ones, axe the non-critable ones, hehe.

The human can take oversized two weapon fighting with thier bonus feat granting an additional attack bonus over the dwarf with picks which does make a difference in the damage outcome so the human is better with the picks.

[Shade]

The human can take oversized two weapon fighting with thier bonus feat granting an additional attack bonus over the dwarf with picks which does make a difference in the damage outcome so the human is better with the picks.

Yep so says some guy who doesn't even have a maxxed out barbarian. Or even care to max one out - you said yourself you like to just make lots of characters that are average and try different builds.. So in this case - take a hint and let the experienced players do the talking.

FYI - with all 3 power attack enhancements for -8 attack this build will hit 99% of content on a roll of 2 or better, even with heavy picks. Requires some good gear to do it but if you lack the gear you just drop the power attack enhance until you get it and it works out fine.

[QuantumFX]

Yep so says some guy who doesn't even have a maxxed out barbarian. Or even care to max one out - you said yourself you like to just make lots of characters that are average and try different builds.. So in this case - take a hint and let the experienced players do the talking.

FYI - with all 3 power attack enhancements for -8 attack this build will hit 99% of content on a roll of 2 or better, even with heavy picks. Requires some good gear to do it but if you lack the gear you just drop the power attack enhance until you get it and it works out fine.

You're missing his point Shade though he's missing something as well. A Human takes OTWF to offset the bonuses from Dwarven Axe Attack 2. However, you're only going with Dwarven Axe Attack 1.

This offers the following advantages for humans:
1) Dual weilding heavy weapons isn't as effective at low levels because Turbine's poorly planned scaling attack bonus hasn't had time to kick in. OTWF means that any weapon combo the human comes up with is -2/-2 to hit. A dwarf/elf/drow has to wait until level 10 to match this in their favored heavy weapons.
2) Saving the 12 APs from maxing out the racial melee enhancements means the human can get the Human Versatility chain and apply the +5 damage to any weapon combo as well. 5 uses is sufficient in the hands of a good player.
3) Both the bonuses above apply to ANY weapon combo. I know it's hard for dwarf players to deal with the reality that axes aren't the end all and be all of DPS. But there are plenty of baddies that bludgeoning/peircing weapons are just more effective on. ()

[Shade]

Not missing any point.
When you hit on a 2, it doesn't matter if you have +40 to hit or +42. Thats the point.

There is no benefit to it at high levels, its a completely wasted feat.

It might make a little difference at the low lvls, but enough difference to make up for worse saves, worse ac, worse hp, etc, etc? nope not nearly.

And the only monsters you wouldn't use an axe on are pretty much skeletons - and even then you might get a transmuting of greater undead bane dwarf axe and that would outpace any 1hand blunt even with the lower enhancement bonus due to transmuting.

Besides you said it yourself, dwarf axes are much better then picks at low lvls, the superior base damage makes all the difference when your very rarely critting.

So yea the build is Dwarf, Dwarf is the best, end of discussion. Post your own human one if u love them so much

[QuantumFX]

It might make a little difference at the low lvls, but enough difference to make up for worse saves, worse ac, worse hp, etc, etc? nope not nearly.

Wow you're really showing your ignorance today aren't you. In order for your precious dwarf to get higher saves or HP or AC you need to switch out enhancements. Which, as you have already pointed out, you don't have the points for. A human can simply switch out the OTWF for Toughness (Oh look you don't have toughness in your build.) at higher levels and choose to become any of the above via Human Versatility.

And the only monsters you wouldn't use an axe on are pretty much skeletons - and even then you might get a transmuting of greater undead bane dwarf axe and that would outpace any 1hand blunt even with the lower enhancement bonus due to transmuting.

I'd rather have a Holy of Greater Undead bane that waste time with Transmuting of Greater Undead bane. Are you serious about building a max DPS character or just perpetuating the illusion that you've created one?

Besides you said it yourself, dwarf axes are much better then picks at low lvls, the superior base damage makes all the difference when your very rarely critting.

So yea the build is Dwarf, Dwarf is the best, end of discussion. Post your own human one if u love them so much

Um no I didn't. Maybe if you tried reading a post you'd realize I'm not Sigtrent. But then again I guess this is what I get for trying to reason with the guy who spent days putting down Renegade's build and then:
1) Ran like a coward when he challenged you to an actual contest.
2) Rehashed the ideas as a dwarf and claimed you've made the best character ever.

[Shade]

Quantum i was making a general reply to everyone who posted - people do that on the forums. You are infact not the center of the universe, but from the sounds of your post making foolish insults in an intenret forum - just a child. So welcome to my ignore list, im sure im not the first to put you there.

[sigtrent]

Yep so says some guy who doesn't even have a maxxed out barbarian. Or even care to max one out - you said yourself you like to just make lots of characters that are average and try different builds.. So in this case - take a hint and let the experienced players do the talking.

I'm not taking any hints from you Shade, neither are most of the forumn regulars I'd wager. The numbers are the numbers. They don't make things up or need experience. You crunch the average damage across the AC spectrum and the picks are better than dwarven axes and a +2 on attack shifts the spectrum a fair bit for the pick user agaisnt anything with meaningfull AC, and that is the only part of the curve where the picks have any trouble outpacing the axes so its all gravy.

FYI - with all 3 power attack enhancements for -8 attack this build will hit 99% of content on a roll of 2 or better, even with heavy picks. Requires some good gear to do it but if you lack the gear you just drop the power attack enhance until you get it and it works out fine.

Well the picks beat the axes on everything that requires a 2 or better to hit. They only lag (without the oversized TWF) agaisnt targets you need better than a 2 to hit becausee the dwarf has axe attack enhancement. Get rid of that advantage and the axes fall farther behind thus the human build is superior to other piercing build options.

[sigtrent]

So yea the build is Dwarf, Dwarf is the best, end of discussion. Post your own human one if u love them so much

I believe the title of this thread is "MAX DPS" etc... and it is untrue because picks do more damage due to a better crit profile. Simple as that. All around... I agree the dwarf is a better way to go because it is more well rounded (so to speak) but the human does more DPS.

[Shade]

I believe the title of this thread is "MAX DPS" etc... and it is untrue because picks do more damage due to a better crit profile. Simple as that. All around... I agree the dwarf is a better way to go because it is more well rounded (so to speak) but the human does more DPS.

Sure whatever. Thats your opinion. Mine is that this is the max dps twf build. I will never buy into silly picks. I'm an axe guy and have never seen anyone do well with picks in the real game, so until i do my opinion won't change.

Besides you still don't seem to get the point.. You talk about "ac spectrum" like it matters, but in the real game to a maxxed out barbarian - there is no ac spectrum. You put power attack on - you hit everything all the time, the idea of monsters having AC means nothing to you. The only time you might consider wanting to turn off power attack to gain some to-hit is versus 2 enemies - and only on elite: Demon queen and The undead beholder - 2 monsters most players really can't contribute much in the ways of dps to anyways.

[Cowdenicus]

Sure whatever. Thats your opinion. Mine is that this is the max dps twf build. I will never buy into silly picks. I'm an axe guy and have never seen anyone do well with picks in the real game, so until i do my opinion won't change.

Besides you still don't seem to get the point.. You talk about "ac spectrum" like it matters, but in the real game to a maxxed out barbarian - there is no ac spectrum. You put power attack on - you hit everything all the time, the idea of monsters having AC means nothing to you. The only time you might consider wanting to turn off power attack to gain some to-hit is versus 2 enemies - and only on elite: Demon queen and The undead beholder - 2 monsters most players really can't contribute much in the ways of dps to anyways.

I would put my wounding puncturing picks against your axes of whatever, anytime (assuming the mobs are crittable).

I would also put my bursting of maiming picks up against your axes in the same circumstances.

[sigtrent]

Besides you still don't seem to get the point.. You talk about "ac spectrum" like it matters, but in the real game to a maxxed out barbarian - there is no ac spectrum. You put power attack on - you hit everything all the time, the idea of monsters having AC means nothing to you. The only time you might consider wanting to turn off power attack to gain some to-hit is versus 2 enemies - and only on elite: Demon queen and The undead beholder - 2 monsters most players really can't contribute much in the ways of dps to anyways.

I'll not begrudge you your opinion. The math on it doesn't lie of course but opinions need not be founded on the data at hand. Of course I am arguing about small margins of damage, but you do that a lot when you critisize peoples builds for being useless for having less than 18 strentgh and the like so its just reaping what you sew in this case.

So why bother wtih dwarven axe attack or greater heroism on your build at all if you don't need attack bonuses? The answer is that in order to ignore AC you need to make sure you have a high attack bonus from whatever soruces are avalable so long as it doesn't compramize damage. Humans also get +1 strength of course but I dont usualy bother mentioning it since it only comes into play about half the time.

[boldarblood]

Sure whatever. Thats your opinion. Mine is that this is the max dps twf build. I will never buy into silly picks. I'm an axe guy and have never seen anyone do well with picks in the real game, so until i do my opinion won't change.

That is not true and you know it to. Your own guildy Wuv/Nehkid, who is a long time real life friend of mine (along with Halls, Twoheals and Toohotz/Toonube) runs a dual wielding heavy pick Barb that is great.

Now having a preference to the Axe over the pick is completly different than you have never seen anyone do well with picks.

[QuantumFX]

Quantum i was making a general reply to everyone who posted - people do that on the forums.

No they don't. Or if they do they'll address it to a group of people first. You tried refuting one of my points and then adding another's comment to my argument.

You are infact not the center of the universe, but from the sounds of your post making foolish insults in an intenret forum - just a child. So welcome to my ignore list, im sure im not the first to put you there.

Well that's too bad. I guess you'll find a way to run from any discussion that isn't going your way.

[Shade]

That is not true and you know it to. Your own guildy Wuv/Nehkid, who is a long time real life friend of mine (along with Halls, Twoheals and Toohotz/Toonube) runs a dual wielding heavy pick Barb that is great.

Now having a preference to the Axe over the pick is completly different than you have never seen anyone do well with picks.

While I have grouped with Wuv on many occasions and find him to be a excellent caster, I cannot remember anytimes I have grouped with his barbarian aside from probably some reaver raids where gauging a melee's performance is rather difficult to say the least. . Tho really I do tend to only group with casters/clerics on my barbarian so 9 times out of 10 wuv would be brining his sorcerer if we were grouping. Perhaps i did group with his barbarian in a regular quest once or twice, i can't recall. Perhaps it's just bad memory.

Re: dwarven axe attack:
I have infact dropped this on my main THF build as it was unnessary once I got the maximum strength. I'm just thinking it will be useful as I level the new dual version.. At mid levels attack bonus does matter a bit. Might drop it again once I max his attack rate.

[Westerner]

Sure whatever. Thats your opinion. Mine is that this is the max dps twf build. I will never buy into silly picks. I'm an axe guy and have never seen anyone do well with picks in the real game, so until i do my opinion won't change.

I'm confused. Isn't the point of posting a build to gather feedback and ideas from other players? This pick vs axe tangent got started when someone suggested deathnip might be higher DPS than gbane d-axe, and it looks like the numbers back it up. Rather than being dismissive about it, it would be more constructive to acknowledge it as a slightly-higher DPS option and move on. If you prefer axes for other reasons, you can do it without gimping the build.

[Shade]

I'm confused. Isn't the point of posting a build to gather feedback and ideas from other players? This pick vs axe tangent got started when someone suggested deathnip might be higher DPS than gbane d-axe, and it looks like the numbers back it up. Rather than being dismissive about it, it would be more constructive to acknowledge it as a slightly-higher DPS option and move on. If you prefer axes for other reasons, you can do it without gimping the build.

Constructive = reading the thread and understanding the debate.

Dismissive = Ignoring the thread, Denying the facts and yet STILL posting that somehow the deathnips are better.

I think that describes your post allot better then any of mine.

Go read the DPS calc again,
+4 greater bane DA vs deathnip = Even until high AC, where dwarf axe wins
+5 greater bane DA vs deathnips = Dwarf axe wins in all cases.

Dwarf axes are superior dps. No one has shown any facts to the contrary for me to even begin to dismiss. There just posting opinions, which si fine but doesn't change anything.

And no the point of this build is not to gather feedback and adjust it based on that. It's for new players looking for an excellent TWF build, and thats exactly what it is and what it will remain.

[Hadrian]

And no the point of this build is not to gather feedback and adjust it based on that. It's for new players looking for an excellent TWF build, and thats exactly what it is and what it will remain.

While I am with you on the axe DPS thing, I don't understand how you can claim a build that requires dual +4 dwarven axes for every major greater bane type to be what it claims to be an excellent build for new players.

As hard as it might be to get the nips, it's not as hard as getting the collection you're talking about. I'd gladly trade more than two tome page sets for all of that.

[Cowdenicus]

Constructive = reading the thread and understanding the debate.

Dismissive = Ignoring the thread, Denying the facts and yet STILL posting that somehow the deathnips are better.

I think that describes your post allot better then any of mine.

Go read the DPS calc again,
+4 greater bane DA vs deathnip = Even until high AC, where dwarf axe wins
+5 greater bane DA vs deathnips = Dwarf axe wins in all cases.

Dwarf axes are superior dps. No one has shown any facts to the contrary for me to even begin to dismiss. There just posting opinions, which si fine but doesn't change anything.

And no the point of this build is not to gather feedback and adjust it based on that. It's for new players looking for an excellent TWF build, and thats exactly what it is and what it will remain.

You never ran the numbers on a +5 shocking burst heavy pick of maiming did you? (or 2 for that matter)

[Twerpp]

I have deathnip on a fighter, not barb though, and it sucks ass compared to a nice greater bane khopesh, even if you are fully specced. So I cant see it being better for barbs either, especially vs a +5-9 d10 +3d6 weapon. The non-crit damage is just pathetic on that thing..you would need stunning blow and a tenderizer throwing random stuns in off hand for it to be really effective, and then it would only work vs certain mobs. Theres no room for that on a 2wf barb you are squeezing 2wf in as it is. I think shades dwarf with axes is just more practical too. A new player could build it and be very happy with it...you dont even need the greater banes just get 1 or 2 really nice dps dwarvens or battleaxes and youre set for most mobs.

Dont get me wrong, a maxxed barb with 2 deathnips would be the cats ass and look really freakin cool, you could probably set a record high single crit (for 1h) with him.

[Cowdenicus]

I have deathnip on a fighter, not barb though, and it sucks ass compared to a nice greater bane khopesh, even if you are fully specced. So I cant see it being better for barbs either, especially vs a +5-9 d10 +3d6 weapon. The non-crit damage is just pathetic on that thing..you would need stunning blow and a tenderizer throwing random stuns in off hand for it to be really effective, and then it would only work vs certain mobs. Theres no room for that on a 2wf barb you are squeezing 2wf in as it is. I think shades dwarf with axes is just more practical too. A new player could build it and be very happy with it...you dont even need the greater banes just get 1 or 2 really nice dps dwarvens or battleaxes and youre set for most mobs.

Dont get me wrong, a maxxed barb with 2 deathnips would be the cats ass and look really freakin cool, you could probably set a record high single crit (for 1h) with him.

Dunno, my barbarian seems to like his new picks alot (although I do not have deathnips for him yet)

Bursting of Maiming = VERY NICE!!!!