Eliminate Raid Prerequisites for DQ and VON

[Mearamar]

/signed..

I have nightmares about running the vons..

[Tanka]

Dane, look at it this way as well.

If we "powergamers" and "lootmongers" don't have to reflag... Neither do the newbies! They get equal access just like we'd have to the same raids and same raid loot.

Suddenly VoN PUGs and DQ PuGs fill out as fast as Reaver PuGs do, because nobody has to reflag.

No more confusion in AtDQ when they come in and ask if it's the raid, or come in and don't realize they need to run all the pre-reqs every time they complete the raid.

Everyone gets equal access suddenly, and sure it means some more raid loot finds its way to characters. Your point being? DQ becomes less of an elitists-know-what-thy-art-doing run and becomes another quick (if slightly chaotic) run that anyone can participate in.

The only drawback is this self-imagined "everyone has raid loot" idea. Even then, what, two or three people (sometimes more when the dice fall just so) get some raid loot, and then everyone gets a piece on their 20th completion.

The whole point behind raid loot change was to punish shortmanning and to encourage getting a full 12 together.

On Sarlona, I see DQ PuGs maybe once every other week. VoNs about the same. I see Titan and Reaver much more often because it doesn't require reflagging and you can join in and say "instruct me!" and have a few people lead you to victory. If you pay attention, you learn the raid, and can lead others to the same success later.

Is it a bad thing to want more people to be able to participate easily in a raid? Or in any quest at all?

It's a 3 day timer still (OK, 2d18hr), so you're limited to 2-3 times a week (if the timer is up properly), and no more. No 10 times in a week like with POP, or Litany, or any other true loot run.

[krud]

That's because even though the Titan was easy to get ready for, it was still tough to beat the Titan at that point in time.

There were a lot of Titan raids when he could be tripped by a fighter with a high DC Improved Trip, or when Cometfall worked on him.

There are still semi-frequent Titan raids on my server. It's more of an investment of time because of the 12 man pre-raid, whereas the Reaver you can run in 15-20 minutes.

It's probably as much of a time issue as it is anything else.

People gravitate towards the quests that give the most reward/loot for the effort. It has always been the case. Nothing really wrong with that. The only reason one would need easier access to DQ or the dragon, after getting sick of running prereqs 20/40/60 times, is to have easier access to the loot. They bring up the few "but I wanna run with my guild" excuses to justify the real desire, which is the quest for loot. Face it, the reason to make it easier to rerun is to get easier access to the loot. No one would care if the loot was crappy. Not many are going run the raid 20/40/60 times if all they want is enjoyment out of the raids, nor are they going to complain about prereqs if it's only for enjoyment. Von1-4 after 40 runs can't be any more boring than the dragon after 40 runs.

Now with that said, I don't see a problem with changing the prereqs. It's not gonna hurt the game. Just don't bring up 10% of the issue to justify 90% of the reasons, that's all. (not directed at you, just a general thought)

[Dane_McArdy]

If that is a valid concern for some ANd I cant see how it is) then TUrbine is to blame. THey set the new standard for Raids requireing no ref;lagging with Titan, Reaver, and Abbot.

There no reason why the Dragon and DQ Shouldnt shard the same mechanic as the restof the raids.. Heck, I dont eve care if qwe would all have to go back and Reflag everything.... Add some random drops in the desert that we need to colect from the side quests, Idont care...

As for Velah, Just kill Von1-4 as a prereq... VOn 5 is long enough Once we reunite the laughing knives, we should have open access (On the Standard 64 Hour timer!) to the Preraid/raid.

They also made the Titan raid much more complex, the abbot raid much more complex, and the rewards for the reaver raid not as good as the others. And there is no argueing that, because they even said that not all raid loot is equal or the same, and that the end boss and fight for the reaver wasn't built to be the hardest raid in the game. That at the time, the titan raid was still much more work and harder then the reaver.

So as they take away having to run the pre quests again, they add more to the raid.

Not to mention, they are trying to avoid any type of pattern, by mixing it up, so that the game mechanics of how things are set up are not always the same.

And I disagree, Von 5 isn't that long.

[bobbryan2]

People gravitate towards the quests that give the most reward/loot for the effort. It has always been the case. Nothing really wrong with that. The only reason one would need easier access to DQ or the dragon, after getting sick of running prereqs 20/40/60 times, is to have easier access to the loot. They bring up the few "but I wanna run with my guild" excuses to justify the real desire, which is the quest for loot. Face it, the reason to make it easier to rerun is to get easier access to the loot. No one would care if the loot was crappy. Not many are going run the raid 20/40/60 times if all they want is enjoyment out of the raids, nor are they going to complain about prereqs if it's only for enjoyment. Von1-4 after 40 runs can't be any more boring than the dragon after 40 runs.

Hmm.. I don't buy it.

First of all... I don't think removing the prereqs makes it easier at all. Running the VONs isn't hard. Perhaps you meant easier in the sense of less hassle, but even then... I'm not convinced that that's the PRIMARY motivation. Don't get me wrong... removing the hassle is a huge plus.

Right now, our guild is trying to figure out what raid we want to do for tomorrow. Most people don't have a lot of time... so we have lists of which of our characters need which prereqs for the demon queen. A full day in advance of the raid... we need to figure out which characters need to run quests, and spend probably an entire evening getting ready for an event that will take about 15 minutes the next day.

Now... more powergaming oriented guilds.. this isn't such a big deal. They just run all 4 prereqs before an event for those that need them and probably take 90 minutes to do all 4 DQ prereqs. But for other guilds, this is an entire night's activities. Leading people through the desert... going back for someone that fell into the ravine on the way to Offering... going back in Wiz King for someone that fell through a pit because he didn't know he should wait behind.

Now, I'm not trying to say a change like this is for the casual gamers. But let's not fool ourselves into thinking it's Devs pandering to powergamers either. The prereqs are actually MORE of a hassle for the more casual group, and they'll benefit greatly.


And as far as the Stormreaver... the Stormreaver loot sucks. People run it over and over for chances at +3 tomes for the most part. The loot is far better in the other 3 raids. Stormreaver is done a lot because people only have to commit for 15 minutes, sure, but another big part is the fact that people know that other people will know what to do when they join a Stormreaver raid. Nothing's worse than getting in a PUG for the titan, finding out a few people don't know what to do, and they ruin the last 2 hours for everyone.

[LargusMeans]

/signed

Run them once and get flagged and then its all good.

Cheers

[Impaqt]

They also made the Titan raid much more complex, the abbot raid much more complex, and the rewards for the reaver raid not as good as the others. And there is no argueing that, because they even said that not all raid loot is equal or the same, and that the end boss and fight for the reaver wasn't built to be the hardest raid in the game. That at the time, the titan raid was still much more work and harder then the reaver.

So as they take away having to run the pre quests again, they add more to the raid.

Not to mention, they are trying to avoid any type of pattern, by mixing it up, so that the game mechanics of how things are set up are not always the same.

And I disagree, Von 5 isn't that long.

Twilight Forge isnt any more Complex than VOn 5 dude.... and abbot.. well, thats just sillyness still...

and yes, VOn 5 can be done pretty quick once you've done it 50 Times.... Yoru FIrst time in.. 20 Minute run?



AS for the Reaver loot bing inferior? No way.. +3 Tomes are the sexiest raid loot in the game bar none. Head of Good Forutne? Nothing else inthe game gives a +2 Luck Bonus... What we've seen out of the abbot so far hasnt come close to the Reaver loot.

[Dane_McArdy]

Ok, it's funny how many of you are trying to convince me to see it your way. Why? It's certainly not because if I cave, Turbine will see the light. I know many of you think I work for Turbine or what not.

Ok, Fine. Turbine, they figured us out. I change my mind. I agree with everyone about this.

Make it so.

Yeah, it's the booze talking.

[Tanka]

Twilight Forge isnt any more Complex than VOn 5 dude.... and abbot.. well, thats just sillyness still...

and yes, VOn 5 can be done pretty quick once you've done it 50 Times.... Yoru FIrst time in.. 20 Minute run?



AS for the Reaver loot bing inferior? No way.. +3 Tomes are the sexiest raid loot in the game bar none. Head of Good Forutne? Nothing else inthe game gives a +2 Luck Bonus... What we've seen out of the abbot so far hasnt come close to the Reaver loot.

The Napkin is also quite good for any caster (less so if their primary stat item is the cloak, as it usually is for Sorcs). The Boots are good for Barbs and any build that likes Raging effects.

The gloves are a good consolidation item for Clerics.

Otherwise, yeah, +3 tomes and a chance at +2 unbound tomes (and other L14 equipment).

[Tanka]

Ok, it's funny how many of you are trying to convince me to see it your way. Why? It's certainly not because if I cave, Turbine will see the light. I know many of you think I work for Turbine or what not.

Ok, Fine. Turbine, they figured us out. I change my mind. I agree with everyone about this.

Make it so.

Yeah, it's the booze talking.

It's a debate, Dane. You make points, we dispute them. We make points, you disupte them.

It could be that somewhere along the line, one of the Devs reads all the points and says "well huh, I never thought about that."

Any threads on the forums are, essentially, debates. That's the reason that a thread isn't just an OP and a Dev coming in, saying one thing, and closing it.

It's there to discuss amongst ourselves. We behave and act civilly, the thread continues.

[Impaqt]

The Napkin is also quite good for any caster (less so if their primary stat item is the cloak, as it usually is for Sorcs). The Boots are good for Barbs and any build that likes Raging effects.

The gloves are a good consolidation item for Clerics.

Otherwise, yeah, +3 tomes and a chance at +2 unbound tomes (and other L14 equipment).

Yeah, I could of gone through half-3/34 of the Reaver list and pointed out how its better than most other raids loot inthe game but didnt feel it was necessary after those first couple....


ANd Dane, we dont really care if you see it out way as well... It just gets real tiring seeing you come up with the same argument over and over.... Most things that folks come up with Dane "Turbine" Mcardy has to tell us why we need to change OUR minds because Turbine is infalable.. Everything TUrbine Touches Turns to Gold.... It gets old.....

[Dane_McArdy]

Um, you guys are really proving my points. It is about the loot.

The, it's no fun, it takes to long, it's better with 12, and getting 12 is a hassle, and all the other reasons are to say it's NOT about the loot.

But it is about the loot.

Come on, admit it. You want to get to the raid loot easier and faster. The raids aren't hard for you by this time, the prequests aren't hard for you by this time. The longest it takes is maybe an hour and half to do ALL of it. There are always people ready to join a pug raid, if you want 12 for maximum loot.

Other then you are just bored with running them, but not bored with the loot, there isn't much reasons given for Turbine to see this as a game breaking issue, is there?

Oh wait, I forogts, I already told Turbine to make the change. Rats.

[Dane_McArdy]

It's a debate, Dane. You make points, we dispute them. We make points, you disupte them.

It could be that somewhere along the line, one of the Devs reads all the points and says "well huh, I never thought about that."

Any threads on the forums are, essentially, debates. That's the reason that a thread isn't just an OP and a Dev coming in, saying one thing, and closing it.

It's there to discuss amongst ourselves. We behave and act civilly, the thread continues.

No, you all think I have some influence and hope I give my blessing on your ideas.

Pffftftttt

[beeofdoom]

/signed

I want re-flagging requirements removed for 2 different reasons:
1) I want the flagging reqs from DQ removed because I've run the raid 26 times and still not obtained the *one* item I want. Reducing the tedium would be great. I enjoy the raid itself, and if reflagging reqs were eliminated I'd still run it even if I had the item I want.

2) I don't need *any* loot from VON, but I *love* the quest and love the fight, (particularly on elite). I get tells asking if I want to join a VON raid a few times a week. I'd be happy to help, but there's no way I'm going to repeatedly run VON 1-4 to keep my character flagged so I can spontaneously run a raid that I don't need any gear from.

[Aspenor]

[bobbryan2]

Um, you guys are really proving my points. It is about the loot.

The, it's no fun, it takes to long, it's better with 12, and getting 12 is a hassle, and all the other reasons are to say it's NOT about the loot.

But it is about the loot.

You're proving my point for me. I hear what you're saying... but we all know what you mean is that you don't like apples. Well, I like apples and I don't have any time for non-apple lovers. And nothing you can say will ever prove to me that you're saying you like something other than the fact that you hate apples.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Make it so.

Yeah, it's the booze talking.

Hurray booze!

[salmag]

/signed

[ahpook]

Um, you guys are really proving my points. It is about the loot.

Well for me you are correct. I generally run quests for loot.

I run them for fun but if there is no loot at the end I generally quit running them. No quest is so fun that it it can be repeated over and over and over again just for fun. (just talking about me here)

I also run them for XP but since characters get capped and remain there for long periods of time, XP is frequently not the reason.

Sometimes they are run for favor. But that is never a reason to run a quest more than 3 times.

So its usually for loot. Because I derive enjoyment from getting better gear that improves my character. And I play for enjoyment. The devs know this, that is why they structure the loot like they do. Because many of us enjoy the loot aspect.

But your point about it being for the loot is not in itself an argument against the change. Making this point is meaningless to the argument of whether to change the system.

When it comes to this change the question (for me) is not whether its about loot but whether the change makes the gaining of said loot too easy. If the reward out weighs the challenge there is a problem. But is somebody seriously going to tell me that running VON 5/6 is insufficient risk for the reward of that warded chest and that adding in VON 1-4 makes the difficulty sufficient to justify it? That seems nonsensical to me. VON 5/6 for the loot is far more reasonable than the Reavers Inner Sanctum for the loot.

So don't tell me it has to be rejected because people want the change for the loot. That is a straw man.

Tell me why VON5/6 is not a fair challenge for the Velah loot or AtDQ and Zawabi's revenge is not sufficient challenge for the DQ's loot. If you do, you better be arguing that the Titan and Reaver should be changed to completely reflag each time as well or you are not being very consistent.

And also explain why that incremental difficulty you want to maintain is good even though it comes at the cost of making players less willing to play some content. This is not a bunch of whiny loot ***** asking to get chest dropped in the marketplace or anything.

So for the first time, (and likely the last ) I will agree with OP.

[Hafeal]

Well we are talking about RAIDS, why does anyone run raids over and over and over?

Um, you guys are really proving my points. It is about the loot.

I have said it before and I guess I will have to say it a thousand times. Many players play the game for more than loot. Unlocking raids like Von and DQ makes the game more inviting and makes it easier to form groups. Most importantly, to me, it opens up some of the best content in the game. Content I will not currently choose to play often because of the requirements and becuase my time to play is limited.

Perhaps others do not value their time as much as I. In my valuable time, I would prefer to not have to re-run mundane pre-reqs in order to see the culmination of the best efforts of the developers - regardless of loot.

Who doesn't want to see Velah rear up and breath fire into the sky? The graphics are amazing ...

Who doesn't want to See DQ test your strategic ability to take her down in a very cool setting?

I would love to play them more and enjoy them - but the time for the pre-raid and raid is enough. The addition of pre-reqs is now outdated.

Regardless of loot.

If some players find it easier now to loot - who cares? Those same people would have been looting Reaver or Titan. Instead they are now looting 1 of 4 raids instead of 2. And the Reaver chests are still higher level than either Titan or Dragon, so if people were chasing any loot, not just raid loot, they can.

The loot argument is nothing more than a red herring on this topic.

To me, it is about making some of the best content in the game easier to access.