The Mod-6 Holy Avenger

[D'rin]

So I would like to get some peoples thoughts on my shadow avenger. He is just hit level 16. His current stats are as follows.
str 26(base 19+1 tome+6 item)
dex 20 (base 14 +1 elf +5 item)
con 16(base 10 +1 tome +5 item)
int 10
Wis 16(12 +4 item)
cha 24 (16 base +2 pally +6 itme)

My thoughts are as follows. I just got my favor on him also so I have a +2 tome to eat. His damage is ok. His AC is what you would expect from a non ac pally build wearing a +4 mithral breastplate. I could add my level up to str and take another level of fighter for fighter str 1 and get a 28 str. I could then use my +2 tome for another stat like con or cha. I could put my level up point into dex and grab a +2 dex tome and revamp my feats for twf kopeshes with oversized twf. I figure this would give me more damage output than puting one point into str. Boosting con would be nice but not sure the +16 hitpoints is going to be as beneficial as twf with kopeshes. Since come next cap increase I could pick up pally 14 and get the holy sword spell if I don't have 2 greensteel kopeshes first.

The other option would be to go thf to up my damage ability. I still think the twf route yields more since you have more chances to critical.

Also on that note does anyone know when you smite with two weapons do you get smites with both(like trip and stunning blow) or just one?

[Swordinator]

Thank you so much for posting this build. I am really enjoying playing it. I'm currently level 6 and the Dragonmarks are proving very helpful and fun.

One question:I have a +5 Mithral Tower Shield that I plan to use with this character after I take my first level of fighter. I believe the max Dex bonus on the MTS is +4.

If that's true, would I have to modify that AC stats in your post to actually be Dex +4, rather than +5 as you have it listed?

I haven't read the many posts to this thread so perphaps that's already been mentioned.

Thanks again for this cool build!

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

@Swordinator - A Mithral Tower Shield does have a Max Dex bonus of +4, however once you take Fighter 3 (usually at Level 16), you will be able to take Fighter's Tower Shield Mastery 1, which increases the Max Dex of a Mithral Tower Shield to +5, thus matching your Dex.


@D'rin - While I am more familiar with the Holy Avenger, I do know the Shadow Avenger fairly well, and if it is possible to take TWF, I would recommend it, especially if you can find a way to fit in Improved Critical: Piercing. TWF is far superior to Sword-and-Board for DPS output, and the ability to use nice DPS Rapiers is a very attractive option. Even if you can't take IC:Pierce, TWF Khopesh (even with the penalty as they are not light weapons) gives a good DPS boost for times when AC is less critical. Even without TWF, I am finding myself going TWF with my Holy Avenger quite often nowadays, and I like the increased damage. Watch out, as the negatives to hit, especially with Power Attack running, can put you at a point where hitting things (especially Red Names in the Shroud) can be a bit hard, but you can always drop back to SnB when you need to.

TWF is, IMHO, always an excellant choice for DPS if you are not as concerned about AC... especially when matched with IC:Pierce... but dual Khopehes are VERY nice. I ran the Shroud the other day with a guy running an Avenger-like build, with Dual Mineral 2 Khopeshes, and he put out some really nice damage. He was able to pull aggro away from the Barbarians on Harry and Attrekios a number of times (quite a feat for a 'Paladin' Build! )

[D'rin]

So update on the build. I got my dex tome and jumped my dex up to get all of the twf line. I am still using kopesh and that is a nice little bit of damage. Since the character is drow I may switch out kopesh for otwf and use rapiers. The reasoning is this. With the +2 damage it is going to help make up some of the differance on kopesh. It will also allow me to use wop when needed. It would also free up my level 18 feat to take extend or something to allow longer divine might and zeal when it comes out. Otherwise I am going to have to decide if sf umd is staying or going.

One thing with the up coming zeal and divine might the holy avenger is going to take some serious increase in damage output. Figure with a 16 cha and 16 levels of paladin you can get a +6 to damage. Now if you are twf that is a really nice increase.

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

So update on the build. I got my dex tome and jumped my dex up to get all of the twf line. I am still using kopesh and that is a nice little bit of damage. Since the character is drow I may switch out kopesh for otwf and use rapiers. The reasoning is this. With the +2 damage it is going to help make up some of the differance on kopesh. It will also allow me to use wop when needed. It would also free up my level 18 feat to take extend or something to allow longer divine might and zeal when it comes out. Otherwise I am going to have to decide if sf umd is staying or going.

One thing with the up coming zeal and divine might the holy avenger is going to take some serious increase in damage output. Figure with a 16 cha and 16 levels of paladin you can get a +6 to damage. Now if you are twf that is a really nice increase.

Unfortunately, I don't have the time needed to really sit down and re-flesh-out the build for Post-Mod7... but to sum it up:

1) Get IC: Pierce, if you can fit it in (drop Cleave/Great Cleave/Weapon Focus for it)
2) If you can make 15 Dex, then get TWF (& ITWF if you can)
3) Khopesh is still best for Human, and mix Khopesh & Rapeir
4) Rapier is best for Elf/Drow
5) Think LONG and Hard before the next Cap Raise... Zeal is attractive, but there are Fighter & Pally Prestige Enhancements coming... don't assume 15 Pal / 2 Rog / 3 Fighter at Level 20

Other random thoughts:
1) I haven't really sat down and worked out the pros and cons, but Monk 2 instead of Rogue 2 is attractive, but losing the high UMD is not really a good option, IMHO. Being able to self-buff to No-Fail on Heal Scrolls and Raise Dead is HUGE to me. But, YMMV.

2) I am not sure I like 2 Rogue / 2 Monk... BAB hit hurts a bit, and you won't ever be centered, unless you go a high-Dex No-Armor build, and farm the **** out of USB for that Outfit with +4 Dodge

3) No matter what I hear people say about Pallys being gimped, I don't believe it. A well built, well equipped, and *WELL PLAYED* Pally kicks a**. I still get comments from other players on how well my Pally does in almost any quest. I am always very competitive on the Kill Count (I know it isn't everything, but it helps), the Clerics comment that they don't have to heal me much, and I Raise Dead and LoH when needed, and pop DDoor and ShortBus Scrolls when needed. I love the versatility and dependability of my Holy Avenger. When the excrement intersects the rotarys, the Holy Avenger is almost always the last one standing (that and the Dex-Based Rogues and Rangers)... supreme survivability.

4) Yes, I have some nice items on my Holy Avenger (+5 MTS, Chattering Ring, 2x +3 Tomes, etc)... but not the best stuff. I haven't even crafted a single Green Steel Item (just got back from 3-4 month break), nor a single WoP or anything that amazing... but just good, reasonable items can go a long way. I just replaced my old staple Khopesh (+5 Flaming Adamantine of Righteousness) with a new +5 Flaming of Maiming... about the same damage overall, but I like the pretty numbers with Maiming... and I pulled it out of a chest from the Shroud.

5) I still have a hard time with Pure Pally, even with the newer Paladin Enhancements... maybe PDK or the other new PrE's will change my mind... but 11 Paladin is still the ceiling for me... and 2 Rogue is pretty much a given... Evasion + Paladin Saves = Survivability!

[D'rin]

Unfortunately, I don't have the time needed to really sit down and re-flesh-out the build for Post-Mod7... but to sum it up:

1) Get IC: Pierce, if you can fit it in (drop Cleave/Great Cleave/Weapon Focus for it)
2) If you can make 15 Dex, then get TWF (& ITWF if you can)
3) Khopesh is still best for Human, and mix Khopesh & Rapeir
4) Rapier is best for Elf/Drow
5) Think LONG and Hard before the next Cap Raise... Zeal is attractive, but there are Fighter & Pally Prestige Enhancements coming... don't assume 15 Pal / 2 Rog / 3 Fighter at Level 20

Other random thoughts:
1) I haven't really sat down and worked out the pros and cons, but Monk 2 instead of Rogue 2 is attractive, but losing the high UMD is not really a good option, IMHO. Being able to self-buff to No-Fail on Heal Scrolls and Raise Dead is HUGE to me. But, YMMV.

2) I am not sure I like 2 Rogue / 2 Monk... BAB hit hurts a bit, and you won't ever be centered, unless you go a high-Dex No-Armor build, and farm the **** out of USB for that Outfit with +4 Dodge

3) No matter what I hear people say about Pallys being gimped, I don't believe it. A well built, well equipped, and *WELL PLAYED* Pally kicks a**. I still get comments from other players on how well my Pally does in almost any quest. I am always very competitive on the Kill Count (I know it isn't everything, but it helps), the Clerics comment that they don't have to heal me much, and I Raise Dead and LoH when needed, and pop DDoor and ShortBus Scrolls when needed. I love the versatility and dependability of my Holy Avenger. When the excrement intersects the rotarys, the Holy Avenger is almost always the last one standing (that and the Dex-Based Rogues and Rangers)... supreme survivability.

4) Yes, I have some nice items on my Holy Avenger (+5 MTS, Chattering Ring, 2x +3 Tomes, etc)... but not the best stuff. I haven't even crafted a single Green Steel Item (just got back from 3-4 month break), nor a single WoP or anything that amazing... but just good, reasonable items can go a long way. I just replaced my old staple Khopesh (+5 Flaming Adamantine of Righteousness) with a new +5 Flaming of Maiming... about the same damage overall, but I like the pretty numbers with Maiming... and I pulled it out of a chest from the Shroud.

5) I still have a hard time with Pure Pally, even with the newer Paladin Enhancements... maybe PDK or the other new PrE's will change my mind... but 11 Paladin is still the ceiling for me... and 2 Rogue is pretty much a given... Evasion + Paladin Saves = Survivability!

I actually have him at a 17 dex. I already respected him for twf, itwf and gtwf. I still think doing rapiers on the drow are better. Especially when you add in the effects like smiting,banishing etc....

I agree a well designed and well played pally is a huge asset to the party. With the new enhancements coming out they are only going to get better. The problem with the prestige classes it may just be better to make a new character. I have a couple of spots open. Also the new prestige classes are not coming out for fighters until MOD 9. I am not sure I want to wait that long to level my avenger up to cap.

Now what I may do is keep the kopesh until I get all of the stuff needed to make 2 tier 3 mineral kopesh. Then I won't need improved crit slashing since they are keen. Then I would get the best of both worlds.

[Aerendil]

That is an interesting option... I hadn't really thought about it. I would say it is a very good option to test. I am preferrential to the Passage for the DDoor... but that's just me.

And with Expeditious Retreat, I don't need to wear Striders, as that gives 14 minutes (16 after the cap) per click... and that is 25% Striding!

I'm a little late to this thread, but judging from your initial post, it doesn't look like you're going for the Intimitank build (no intimidation listed), in which case the Dragonmark of Passage line would be quite nice.
If, however, you were thinking of taking some Intimidate levels, that would be an extra plus in favor of the Sentinel line.
Automatic +2 to intimidate granted on taking the least DM, not to mention several Human enhancements to augment that. On a cross-class skill, that's a couple of free levels worth of intimidate (which could then be freed up for more UMD).

Just something to chew on

[Swordinator]

Hey D,
Another quick question on this super build.

I'm level 8 and really enjoying it.

Any negative impact if I were to take my 1st fighter level at lvl 10 instead of waiting until 14?

Reason I ask is I have a + 5 Mithral Tower Shield with level requirement 8, so the only thing preventing me from using it is that little tiny detail called proficiency. So if I take my 2nd rogue level at 9, and then my 1st level of fighter at 10, I could be a super high-AC-evasion monster pally.

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Hey D,
Another quick question on this super build.

I'm level 8 and really enjoying it.

Any negative impact if I were to take my 1st fighter level at lvl 10 instead of waiting until 14?

Reason I ask is I have a + 5 Mithral Tower Shield with level requirement 8, so the only thing preventing me from using it is that little tiny detail called proficiency. So if I take my 2nd rogue level at 9, and then my 1st level of fighter at 10, I could be a super high-AC-evasion monster pally.

You can certainly take the Fighter Level earlier for a nice Tower Shield.
Personally, I want Evasion around then, and then I want to max out my Paladin levels for 30-point resist, but if you have a nice +5 MTS, then by all means. Just make sure you max UMD on EVERY level. NO EXCEPTIONS. All other skills are negotiable, but TRUST ME... in the long run you will want every single possible point of UMD.

When you get to the point of no-failing Heal Scrolls, you will thank me!

[grues]

Sorry for bumping such an ancient thread (thread necromancy if you will), but I'm something of a newbie and I had a question about the starting stats.

If you create a human/paladin you are a few points short of the base stats you list (before any modifiers). I don't know if this is due to patch changes or if this is something that is just going over my head. I notice you listed your stats as of level 16, I guess my question is what would the stats for this build as of level 1. What goes into the character creator?

You list the base stats as:

STR: 17
DEX: 13
CON: 12
INT: 12
WIS: 8
CHA: 14

the closest I can get:

STR: 16
DEX: 13
CON: 12
INT: 12
WIS: 8
CHA: 13

EDIT:
ack this is a 32 point build isn't it? (just discovered that)

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Sorry for bumping such an ancient thread (thread necromancy if you will), but I'm something of a newbie and I had a question about the starting stats.

If you create a human/paladin you are a few points short of the base stats you list (before any modifiers). I don't know if this is due to patch changes or if this is something that is just going over my head. I notice you listed your stats as of level 16, I guess my question is what would the stats for this build as of level 1. What goes into the character creator?

You list the base stats as:

STR: 17
DEX: 13
CON: 12
INT: 12
WIS: 8
CHA: 14

the closest I can get:

STR: 16
DEX: 13
CON: 12
INT: 12
WIS: 8
CHA: 13

EDIT:
ack this is a 32 point build isn't it? (just discovered that)

Yes, the original stats are 32-points build.
Your version is fine for a 28-point version.

[DME543]

Dworkin,
Are you still updating the Holy Avenger?
Thanks

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Well... kinda... but not really.

I would think that the current HA Build would go 18/2 (Pal/Rog) TWF Kopesh, with KotC.

I will roll it around in my head a little bit, and try to sketch out a framework for what I think it would look like today. The old 11/2/4 Pal/Rog/Fgt base would really need to do a Lesser +3 and a Lesser +1 to drop the Fighter Levels... or possibly try a 12/2/6 split for KotC 2 and Stalwart Defender... but I think that is sub-optimal nowadays.

Of course, with the TWF nerf, I have to also consider SnB with DA/Bastard Swords... not sure yet. Let me think about it. Glad to know that some are still interested!

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Ok, after thinking about my last post, I want to clarify something...

If you still have an older Holy Avenger build that started 11/2/3 (Pal/Rog/Fgt), I think the build can still be useful with Lesser-ing out the Fighter Levels. 14/2/4 would work as a final build if you already started that way, so you get Holy Sword and/or Zeal.

I didn't want to come off that the old build was useless... I still think 18/2 is stronger, but 14/2/4 would still be good, for using the old build.

I guess the main reason I stopped updating the build (other than the fact that I quit DDO for 8 months), is that it is nearly impossible to get this build to have the competitive AC it used to have, while keeping up the DPS and UMD. To keep the build to it's roots, Monk should not be splashed, so the insane AC isn't there... and with the way the game plays now, Intimidate it a must now, so keeping the skills up is harder than ever. Plus with SnB lagging so badly in DPS, it is harder than ever to make a good end-game AC-focused Paladin, without changing Races, and I just can't see the HA as a Dwarf base. I dunno... still need to think on it.


I guess the best thing would be to post or PM me what your build, tomes, and gear are right now, and let's see how to finish off your build (or tweak it), to maintain the competitive edge.

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Dworkin,
Are you still updating the Holy Avenger?
Thanks

Ok, after doing some thinking, running a few numbers, and talking to a few others, my best recommendation for HA is to go Human 18Pal/2Rog TWF KotC.
16/15/13/10/9/14 w/ +2 Supreme Tome
Skills: UMD, Jump, Intimidate, and Balance after Level 7
NOTE: Some people value Balance over Jump, YMMV, and if so, then UMD & Balance, and Jump after Level 7

TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Khopesh, IC:Slash, Toughness, PA, Extend Spell (in no particular order)
NOTE: If Mineral II's are your primary weapons, you might consider swapping IC: Slash for IC: Pierce or Stunning Blow
NOTE 2: If Extend Spell isn't that important, options would include: SF: UMD & FoP (but I think FoP is overkill on an Evasion Paladin)

Obviously the ToD KotC set is an auto-include for this build, although the Ravager Set might give slightly better DPS, especially if you don't have a Seeker Item.

------------------

For those with the old 11Pal/2Rog/3Fgt Holy Avenger.

For the best overall experience, I would recommend Lesser Reincarnating to drop the Fighter Levels and go with the above-build.

If not, then 15Pal/2Rog/3Fgt would be my best suggestion, for Zeal, and take KotC 2.

I would still suggest TWF over SnB, but if you have CE and can get over 60 AC, then you might want to stick with SnB, but find a way to get Intimidate maxxed!

------

That's my thoughts for now. I think 18/2 is the much stronger build, and more true to the HA in today's DDO. I haven't had time to flesh out all the gear... but if I had to take a quick stab (and this is REALLY ROUGH!!!):

Armor: DT Light - Heavy For, ???, Earthgrab/Incite (I know this isn't ideal, but it's a start)
Goggles: Tharne's/Mentau
Helm: +15 Intimidate
Necklace: GreenSteel Concordant Opposition - Neg/Pos/Neg+Pos Escalation, Material (+45 HP, +5 Con Skills, +1 Str Skills)
Trinket: Bloodstone
Cloak: GreenSteel Concordant Opposition - Neg/Pos/Neg+Pos Escalation, Ethereal (Wis +6, SP +150, +1 Int Skills, +5 Cha Skills, +10 Haggle, +10 Diplo)
Belt: Lorinthor's Belt (+6 Con, Except Aware 1)
Gloves: Dex +6
Boots: Striding +30
Bracers: GreenSteel: Pos/Pos/Pos - Wizardy VI, +150SP, +6 Cha Skills
Ring: Lorinthor's Ring (+6 Str, Except Cha +1, Except Cha +2) Set: SR22, +Damage vs. EO
Ring: Kyrian's/Warchanter Band (+6 Cha, Except Str +1, Except Str +2)

Double Concordant Opposition might be overkill, but it seems to work very nicely!

[jadenkorr]

Double Conc Opp doesnt stack. To be more specific, conc opp on two accessories (eg cloak and necklace) dont stack. Conc Opp on 1 weapon, and 1 accessory does stack, but is not working as intended and is subject to nerfage in the future. Just FYI

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Double Conc Opp doesnt stack. To be more specific, conc opp on two accessories (eg cloak and necklace) dont stack. Conc Opp on 1 weapon, and 1 accessory does stack, but is not working as intended and is subject to nerfage in the future. Just FYI

Ah, good to know... I'll have to update accordingly

[Tribe33]

Wall of Fire does not have a save.

better hit the books again, like a spell book

wall of fire has a save and evasion works against it.

there is no SPELL RESISTANCE for it... but a save.. every time.