Weekly Dev Activities 1/21/08

[Mad_Bombardier]

Actually, if you're using analogs with what's already in the game, it should start off on par with the bonus speed of Rapid Shot (+1 attack per round, all at -2 attack), and progressively get faster until it's a bit faster than Haste at level 9 monk (2 extra attacks per round, no penalty)

Better yet, Rapid Shot should equal Haste for +25% alacrity instead of the subpar +10% we get now.

Flurry should match that, too. Then, at Monk 11 (for Greater Flurry), it should increase again to +40% (essentially, 2 extra attacks with 5 regular attacks in DDO by BAB+15).

[EspyLacopa]

Better yet, Rapid Shot should equal Haste for +25% alacrity instead of the subpar +10% we get now.

ONLY if it were treated as another stance, that also comes with a -2 penalty on all attacks.

[Mad_Bombardier]

ONLY if it were treated as another stance, that also comes with a -2 penalty on all attacks.

Yeah, I'd be okay with that. And as MT suggested, Flurry could be a stance, too (actually a toggle like the new Improved Precise Shot, so that you can use CE/PA/etc.)

[Invalid_86]

Weekly Development Activities
[*]NEW The attack progress has been adjusted as follows: +0, +0, +5, +10, +10. For one handed weapons and dual wielders the 5th attack is the same speed as attack 4 so we are in good shape with them. For two handed weapons, we have added a glancing attack on the fifth attack. If they have superior two handed fighting, that will give them 2 glancing attacks for swing #5.[/LIST]UI Improvements[LIST]

Well it's at least a step in the right direction.

But seriously guys. A simple timer and a proper application of the BAB progression would solve a whole mess of problems in the game. Why the hesitation? 2-3 second rounds, descending chances to hit, it's a bit of a no brainer.

[EspyLacopa]

Well it's at least a step in the right direction.

But seriously guys. A simple timer and a proper application of the BAB progression would solve a whole mess of problems in the game. Why the hesitation? 2-3 second rounds, descending chances to hit, it's a bit of a no brainer.

Then you have people who attack once, move a little, attack again, still using the highest attack. Where's the point in using that full round attack when you can hit far more often by attacking then moving?

[Invalid_86]

Then you have people who attack once, move a little, attack again, still using the highest attack. Where's the point in using that full round attack when you can hit far more often by attacking then moving?

Timer. I said timer. If you take another attack within 2-3 seconds it's at -5 to hit. A third, -10 to hit. If you don't take the swings and wait you are just depriving yourself of an extra opportunity to cause damage. This "move a little and attack" excuse really doesn't hold water.

[UtherSRG]

Yeah, I'd be okay with that. And as MT suggested, Flurry could be a stance, too (actually a toggle like the new Improved Precise Shot, so that you can use CE/PA/etc.)

I agree.

[ArkoHighStar]

Timer. I said timer. If you take another attack within 2-3 seconds it's at -5 to hit. A third, -10 to hit. If you don't take the swings and wait you are just depriving yourself of an extra opportunity to cause damage. This "move a little and attack" excuse really doesn't hold water.

because I would simply wait the 3 to 4 secs before swinging again to get that extra bonus and hit more often than I ever would going through the progression

[HumanJHawkins]

The PROBLEM with ranged combat and ammunitionis currently that arrow slots refill with the next available arrow set.

I think we need bigger stacks or quivers, so don't take this as an argument against. I just wanted to point out that arrows don't automatically equip if you have them locked.

So:

1. Equip the some cheap arrows...
2. Put a couple of fresh stacks of 100 cheap arrows from deeper in your inventory into your hotbar. (Leave these and the other 1000+ cheap arrows unlocked)
3. Lock all your good arrows and put them in your hotbar.

Then, when you want to use good arrows, click on them from your hotbar. If you run out, cheap arrows automatically equip because the good ones are locked. If you want to switch to cheap arrows before you run out, click the cheapies in your hotbar.

That said, it is silly that my fighter can literally carry 20 suits of full plate in the same amount of space that my ranged fighter needs to carry 1000 arrows! (Yes, I can do math, but many different types of arrows don't stack... Figuring average stack size of 50 arrows is actually generous.)

[gpk]

It sure would be nice to get some dev clarification on the BAB15+ overall attack slowdown.

On Risia right now, at bab15 your swing rate is REDUCED by 10% rather than being increased (attack bonus was dropped from +15 to +10, player initiated request I might add), so really if the 5th swing were to increase in speed even by 10% (at +10 ab) it's a net Decrease of 20%.

Is this really a wise decision given the current state of the game and the "balance" between the classes?

[greystone306]

I think we need bigger stacks or quivers, so don't take this as an argument against. I just wanted to point out that arrows don't automatically equip if you have them locked.

So:

1. Equip the some cheap arrows...
2. Put a couple of fresh stacks of 100 cheap arrows from deeper in your inventory into your hotbar. (Leave these and the other 1000+ cheap arrows unlocked)
3. Lock all your good arrows and put them in your hotbar.

Then, when you want to use good arrows, click on them from your hotbar. If you run out, cheap arrows automatically equip because the good ones are locked. If you want to switch to cheap arrows before you run out, click the cheapies in your hotbar.

That said, it is silly that my fighter can literally carry 20 suits of full plate in the same amount of space that my ranged fighter needs to carry 1000 arrows! (Yes, I can do math, but many different types of arrows don't stack... Figuring average stack size of 50 arrows is actually generous.)

Possibly another option other then bags would be to have another backpack appear that would be restricted to Bolts or Arrows only.. maybe as a favor item for House D or a feat given automatically to Rangers at first level and choosable by others.. not sure...

[Mad_Bombardier]

It sure would be nice to get some dev clarification on the BAB15+ overall attack slowdown.

At bab15 your swing rate is REDUCED by 10% rather than being increased (attack bonus was dropped from +15 to +10, player initiated request I might add), so really if the 5th swing were to increase in speed even by 10% (at +10 ab) it's a net Decrease of 20%.

Is this really a wise decision given the current state of the game and the "balance" between the classes?

The clarification/fix was already announced in this very WDA.

[gpk]

The clarification/fix was already announced in this very WDA.

It says "For one handed weapons and dual wielders the 5th attack is the same speed as attack 4 so we are in good shape with them."

Which to me sounds like the 5th swing itself is the same speed as the 4th, i.e. same duration; it doesn't offer any clarification as to the overrall swing rate for a full attack chain at BAB15+.

If the 4th swing duration is the same as the first 3 (is it slower?) then (by the WDA statement) a 5th attack would mean your swing rate would remain the same at bab 15 as bab 14, just that the 5th swing gets a +10 to hit.

If the 4th swing is slower than the first 3, a 5th attack at the same speed as the 4th would slow the overall swings/time down.

[Invalid_86]

because I would simply wait the 3 to 4 secs before swinging again to get that extra bonus and hit more often than I ever would going through the progression

Alright lets resort to math as people don't seem to understand this concept.

Say a round is 3 seconds, and you get 3 attacks per round.

You fight for 3 rounds.

Waiting and swinging once every three second to always have your highest to hit bonus will end up looking like this:

Round 1: Attack once at full bonus, sit and wait for the rest of the 3 seconds to go by.
Round 2: Attack once at full bonus, sit and wait for the rest of the 3 seconds to go by.
Round 3: Attack once at full bonus.
Fights over. You attacked three times, all with no penalty to hit.

With BAB properly implemented and taking advantage of all of your attacks you get this:

Round 1: Attack once at full bonus, a second time at -5 to hit, a third time at -10 to hit.
Round 2: Attack once at full bonus, a second time at -5 to hit, a third time at -10 to hit.
Round 3: Attack once at full bonus, a second time at -5 to hit, a third time at -10 to hit.
Fights over. You attacked three times with no penalty to hit, three more times at -5 to hit on each swing, and three more times beyond that at -10 to hit on each swing.

Now what is the advantage in sitting and waiting? You gain nothing in doing so.

All we are talking about is a small timer icon that resets itself every X seconds when you attack, just like the cooldown timer on spells. We aren't talking cutting edge technology here.

[UtherSRG]

Possibly another option other then bags would be to have another backpack appear that would be restricted to Bolts or Arrows only.. maybe as a favor item for House D or a feat given automatically to Rangers at first level and choosable by others.. not sure...

Certainly not a feat. I would be ok with it being something from favor.

[MysticTheurge]

Alright lets resort to math as people don't seem to understand this concept.

Say a round is 3 seconds, and you get 3 attacks per round.

The flaw here is that in order for this to work, the "single attacK' at BAB <6 has to take 3 seconds.

Do you know how slow that is?

[Invalid_86]

The flaw here is that in order for this to work, the "single attacK' at BAB <6 has to take 3 seconds.

Do you know how slow that is?

Make it two seconds then. Or 1.5. The main thing is that BAB on progressive attacks goes down. shoot if you are really worried about it we could still keep that second attack at BAB +1 thing.

[MysticTheurge]

Make it two seconds then. Or 1.5. The main thing is that BAB on progressive attacks goes down. shoot if you are really worried about it we could still keep that second attack at BAB +1 thing.

But either way you're trying to put 1-4 (or more) attacks in a given length of time.

This works in a turn-based system but not in a real-time system. In a real-time system, if the time-period is too short you're moving unrealistically fast at high BAB (especially when you add in things like Flurry of Blows, Rapid Shot, Haste and other attack-adding abilities). If the time-period is too long, you move too slowly at low BAB and things aren't fun.

[Invalid_86]

But either way you're trying to put 1-4 (or more) attacks in a given length of time.

This works in a turn-based system but not in a real-time system. In a real-time system, if the time-period is too short you're moving unrealistically fast at high BAB (especially when you add in things like Flurry of Blows, Rapid Shot, Haste and other attack-adding abilities). If the time-period is too long, you move too slowly at low BAB and things aren't fun.

One could easily say that what we have now doesn't work well either, and what you describe is actually how D&D works. Multiple attacks in a round means multiple attacks in a round, that's the game, it's been that way for 30 years or so.

A 20th level fighter should get in a staggering number of hits in a round. Haste should make you hyperactively fast. Rapid Shot really only adds 1 attack in a round, with penalties added in to hit. Flurry of blows only adds an attack or two, roughly bringing them up to par with the speed of an equal level fighter, and they deserve it. As a martial arts student myself I know first hand the ability of master martial artist to make this many attacks is almost second nature. These really aren't problems.

[MysticTheurge]

and what you describe is actually how D&D works.

Yes, and like I said, it's a system that works better in a Turn Based system than it does in Real Time.