Weekly Dev Activities 1/21/08

[dragnmoon]

stuff with lots of numbers.

So what you are saying Mad... that What Q is saying, with SWF/TWF that Attacking 5 times takes as long as attacking 4 times, but THF is slower but you get an extra Glancing blow?..

And Not... The 5th attack is as fast as the 4th attack As I read it..

[Mad_Bombardier]

So what you are saying Mad... that What Q is saying, with SWF/TWF that Attacking 5 times takes as long as attacking 4 times, but THF is slower but you get an extra Glancing blow?

Actually, kind of. I don't think attacks 1-4 are being sped up so that the new attacks 1-5 is in the same time as the old attacks 1-4. I do think that they are trying to preserve the overall rate of attack from BAB+14, which was ~96 attacks per minute. Now, I gotta wait for them to update Risia (or release the Mod) so I can do some time tests.

P.S. "stuff with lots of numbers" is awesome.

[dragnmoon]

I may be incorrect. But, yes, that is my read of the post.

Well then that would be awesome..

If they did that with SWF/TWF? why would they not do the same with THF though?

[Mad_Bombardier]

Well then that would be awesome.

Actually, no. I misread, edited, and clarfied above.

[Fallout]

>For one handed weapons and dual wielders the 5th attack is the same speed as attack 4 so we are in good shape with them.

So from what I read, it makes dual wielding more powerful then before? With the ranger tempest mods and attack speeds, it looks like ranger will be the new favorite melee class. High dps, good AC, cast spells and use wands.

[Mad_Bombardier]

NEW The attack progress has been adjusted as follows: +0, +0, +5, +10, +10. For one handed weapons and dual wielders the 5th attack is the same speed as attack 4 so we are in good shape with them. For two handed weapons, we have added a glancing attack on the fifth attack. If they have superior two handed fighting, that will give them 2 glancing attacks for swing #5.

Ok, re-re-reading and looking at it from another angle. According to my earlier SWF time trials on Live/Risia:
BAB+9 = 108 attacks per minute. That's 36 three-attack combos. Meaning attacks 1-3 take 1.666 seconds to complete.
BAB+14 = 96 attacks per minute. That's 24 four-attack combos. Meaning attacks 1-4 take 2.5 seconds and attack 4 alone takes .833 seconds.
BAB+15 = 90 attacks per minute. That's 18 five-attack combos. Meaning attacks 1-5 take 3.33 seconds and attack 5 alone takes .833 seconds.

If we are to read the above WDA note that attack 5 will take the same time as attack 4, then attack 5 will add another .833 seconds to the combo (2.5 seconds + .833 = 3.33 seconds). Which is exactly what it was when Risia was first updated. So, according to the WDA note, nothing has changed? "in good shape with them" must certainly mean something else.

Using my above method of example,
With BAB+14 and 4th attack, you now get 96 attacks per minute
= 48 attacks at +14+0, 24 attacks at +14+5, and 24 attacks at +14+10 (+1704 in total to-hit bonuses per minute).

With BAB+15 and 5th attack, you now get 90 attacks per minute
= 36 attacks at +15+0, 18 attacks at +15+5, and 36 attacks at +15+10 (+1800 in total to-hit bonuses per minute).

A difference of +96 more to-hit bonuses, which equals +1 BAB over 96 attacks. Which means no increase or decrease by gaining the 5th attack, only the increase in BAB. That can't be right...

Update: What they need to do to match my first example is speed up the animation and make the 5th attack faster. Instead of the 5th attack taking .833 seconds (same as the 4th attack), it needs to be .666 seconds. Then, the overall attack chain will be 3.166 seconds = 19 five-attack chains per minute = 95 attacks per minute. Roughly the same overall attacks per minute; less total combos, but with more attacks at higher bonus. We'd actually be getting more powerful by levelling up and that'd be great.

[EspyLacopa]

A difference of +96 more to-hit bonuses, which equals +1 BAB over 96 attacks. Which means no increase or decrease by gaining the 5th attack, only the increase in BAB. That can't be right...

That is actually rather interesting.

So, how does that actually work out in game?

[Mad_Bombardier]

That is actually rather interesting.

So, how does that actually work out in game?

Like I said above, if you already hit on a 2, then you are losing 6 hits per minute (6 doses of damage). But, if you are missing at all, then you should be scoring more hits. Except in this case, you are scoring roughly the same number of hits (the only increase is from +1 more BAB) and swinging 6 less times per minute. Extra hits seem to be negated by loss of attacks per minute, so we gain nothing.

[MysticTheurge]

Which is exactly what it was when Risia was first updated. So, according to the WDA note, nothing has changed? "in good shape with them" must certainly mean something else.

I'm going go with it meaning "We misunderestimated the problem."

[Coldin]

Like I said above, if you already hit on a 2, then you are losing 6 hits per minute (6 doses of damage). But, if you are missing at all, then you should be scoring more hits. Except in this case, you are scoring roughly the same number of hits (the only increase is from +1 more BAB) and swinging 6 less times per minute. Extra hits seem to be negated by loss of attacks per minute, so we gain nothing.

Well, we do get a cool new attack to look at, at least.

[The_Phenx]

We can speculate all we want.. but I imagine Q is getting an official clarification for us on the swing progression, since they said they have fixed it.

or he better be... shaking fists...

[Mad_Bombardier]

but I imagine Q is getting an official clarification for us on the swing progression, since they said they have fixed it.

or he better be... shaking fists...

[gpk]

Yes a clarification dev post with the final numbers would be greatly appreciated especialy given the fact it's been a topic of much importance to a great many players since the slowdown was noticed on Risia (I'm sure it was noticed elsewhere first).

IMHO BAB15 should confer at least a 10% swing rate increase along with the +10 attack bonus, not be the same speed (or slower) as BAB14 w/ +10 AB for a 5th swing.

[Rallie]

Heh.. that one's been in the 'release notes' since Mod 4.1

Well, a greater teleport fix was promised back then, but it's never actually been listed in the wda. Now the question is what on earth did they 'fix' if not the part that was broken?

[winsom]

yes but this is not turn based combat, my opponent is not sitting there waiting for me to finish my 5 attacks before swinging at me, so if attack progression started higher and went lower there would be no incentive whatsoever to not move between swings.

That's a flawed assumption.

DDO could be coded to give the proper D&D attack penalties regardless of a character's movement. Basically, the "wait" period to avoid itterative penalties would be long enough of a time for a standing or moving-and-attacking character to complete all attack animations. Thus the person that waits is waiting "too long" and is missing out on chances to deal damage. Poor strategy.

Consider that even with proper itterative attack penalties, a 20 will always hit. This system works in D&D where characters do not have these high attack bonuses that low level characters have in DDO. In DDO it would be easy to hit most monsters under the proper D&D system. Some monster ACs could be lowered though, as they should be. Non-elite insects with AC near 30 is just silly.

Turbine could chose to add standing still attack bonuses to counter some of these D&D penalties, although I don't think that fits in with DDO as a action-based game. Turbine allows for frantic combat, but then they reward players for standing still and not taking part in active combat movement... Currently, against most melee monsters, it is better not to move your character at all, as you lose attacks and lose attack bonuses. Stand still and wait for the monster to come back into your attack arcs that are getting the standing still attack bonuses. Its a rather inactive way to fight.

[Invalid_86]

That's a flawed assumption.

DDO could be coded to give the proper D&D attack penalties regardless of a character's movement. Basically, the "wait" period to avoid itterative penalties would be long enough of a time for a standing or moving-and-attacking character to complete all attack animations. Thus the person that waits is waiting "too long" and is missing out on chances to deal damage. Poor strategy.

Consider that even with proper itterative attack penalties, a 20 will always hit. This system works in D&D where characters do not have these high attack bonuses that low level characters have in DDO. In DDO it would be easy to hit most monsters under the proper D&D system. Some monster ACs could be lowered though, as they should be. Non-elite insects with AC near 30 is just silly.

Turbine could chose to add standing still attack bonuses to counter some of these D&D penalties, although I don't think that fits in with DDO as a action-based game. Turbine allows for frantic combat, but then they reward players for standing still and not taking part in active combat movement... Currently, against most melee monsters, it is better not to move your character at all, as you lose attacks and lose attack bonuses. Stand still and wait for the monster to come back into your attack arcs that are getting the standing still attack bonuses. Its a rather inactive way to fight.

Ding Ding Ding!

Somebody understands the mechanics of properly applied BAB! I was starting to lose hope.

[Nightwynde]

This reply is to any of the Devs that can help out with this issue. Time and time again Rangers are getting hosed by the horrible lack of spells in our arsenal. I can't help but wonder why there is such a continual fuss over the Clerics, Wizards, Bards, and Sorcs getting more and more spells, when Rangers seem to be left in the dust.

Merfolk's Blessing

• Transmutation
• Level: Brd 1, Rgr 1, Sor/Wiz 1
• Grants one ally per caster level a +10 enhancement bonus to Swim, plus one per two caster levels.

Ram's Might

• Transmutation
• Level: Rgr 1
• Enlarges the hands of the caster, granting a +2 size bonus to Strength and damage.

These are the only 2 spells that I have seen added to a Ranger's spell list. How about giving Rangers some more usefull spells that are only available to the Ranger class. Give us some spells that would make Rangers more likely to be choosen for groups. There are many times that every class for LFM is open for a new group except Rangers, because we really don't have much to offer a group other than Barkskin. We need more usefull spells, to give Rangers that competative edge that we need for questing, and to get more groups. Personally, I would also like to hear what other rangers out there have to say about this terrible spell oversight. Rangers only got access to 2 of the 16 new spells that I have seen in this post. Totally not fair.

[binnsr]

Turbine could chose to add standing still attack bonuses to counter some of these D&D penalties, although I don't think that fits in with DDO as a action-based game. Turbine allows for frantic combat, but then they reward players for standing still and not taking part in active combat movement... Currently, against most melee monsters, it is better not to move your character at all, as you lose attacks and lose attack bonuses. Stand still and wait for the monster to come back into your attack arcs that are getting the standing still attack bonuses. Its a rather inactive way to fight.

Back in Beta, there was no penalty for moving while attacking, nor did you lose your extra attack bonuses .. the result was nearly everyone used fps tactics (i.e. circle-strafing) to slaughter poor innocent mobs before they could turn around. If you were circling fast enough, you were always behind them - with the flanking bonus, your full attack progression and no movement penalties.

They put the -4 tohit penalty in and stripped the iterative attack bonuses while moving to counter that trend..

If you like to bunnyhop like the crackhead kobolds, then sink feats into the spring attack chain.

[gpk]

This reply is to any of the Devs that can help out with this issue. Time and time again Rangers are getting hosed by the horrible lack of spells in our arsenal. I can't help but wonder why there is such a continual fuss over the Clerics, Wizards, Bards, and Sorcs getting more and more spells, when Rangers seem to be left in the dust.

Merfolk's Blessing

• Transmutation
• Level: Brd 1, Rgr 1, Sor/Wiz 1
• Grants one ally per caster level a +10 enhancement bonus to Swim, plus one per two caster levels.

Ram's Might

• Transmutation
• Level: Rgr 1
• Enlarges the hands of the caster, granting a +2 size bonus to Strength and damage.

These are the only 2 spells that I have seen added to a Ranger's spell list. How about giving Rangers some more usefull spells that are only available to the Ranger class. Give us some spells that would make Rangers more likely to be choosen for groups. There are many times that every class for LFM is open for a new group except Rangers, because we really don't have much to offer a group other than Barkskin. We need more usefull spells, to give Rangers that competative edge that we need for questing, and to get more groups. Personally, I would also like to hear what other rangers out there have to say about this terrible spell oversight. Rangers only got access to 2 of the 16 new spells that I have seen in this post. Totally not fair.

Well Ram's might alone, a totally un-pnp implementation I might add, is quite strong. I was very surprised my Ranger would be getting it in Mod6. Along with the tempest enhancement PRC class and STWF (if you meet dex) and Oversize TWF added to the feat list I can't really complain. Eladrin said STWF might even be given for free to Rangers in the future but that seems unlikely to me.

It's still surprising to me Rangers got "love" before Paladins and Rogs, not saying they didn't need some too but in my experience Rangers are the more powerful mêlée combatants of the three. The favorite Enemies cover most of the high threat mobs you're likely to face: Giants, Undead, Evil Outsider and a 4th at lev 15.
+8 extra base damage vs Fav enemies at 15 and cheap enhancements to boost damage, ac, saves (AB a bit more costly) put Rangers quite a bit ahead of Paladins in mêlée prowess, imho. A very nice Ram's might implementation is just icing on the cake. I wouldn't be surprised if all those ppl frantically rolling sorcs and wizards in mod5 are going to be playing Rangers if they want a mêlée class (assuming they have Barbarians already)

If you think Rangers got hosed play a Paladin

[Mad_Bombardier]

That's a flawed assumption.

DDO could be coded to give the proper D&D attack penalties regardless of a character's movement. Basically, the "wait" period to avoid itterative penalties would be long enough of a time for a standing or moving-and-attacking character to complete all attack animations. Thus the person that waits is waiting "too long" and is missing out on chances to deal damage. Poor strategy.

If you really couldn't hit with later attacks and had a timer on attacking (say 3 seconds), why would you risk staying in melee range and taking damage to only have a minute chance at hitting something a third/fourth time? The strategy would be:
swing-swing, run away, move around for 2 more seconds to avoid any contact/mob attacks, re-engage, swing-swing, repeat.

It's a mob AI exploit that is not exactly like, but similar to, what happened in Beta as described by binnsr above.

If you think Rangers got hosed play a Paladin

Because +5 Holy Burst weapons grow on trees. That's a juicy spell upgrade, right there. And according to Dev posts, more Paly love to come in Mod7.