Multi-Class as a second class citizen

[Trinarius]

Note the sig. I have a near capped Cleric, Wizard, and a capped Ranger, as well as a 10 Fighter. I'm pretty clear on what classes can do, and have played D&D PnP for 15 years. That combination of classes really doesn't seem to be all that synergistic.

I'm certainly not trying to put you on the defensive here, so if I've done that, my apologies.

My point was that, after having played several pure-class characters, I didn't enjoy playing them as much because of their inherent limitations, and, in most cases, that their strong dependencies upon other classes are a huge limitation in the all-too-frequent occasions where characters of the dependent classes simply aren't available.

Haven't you ever been playing along and think "I wish my character could do that!"? In many cases it isn't about synergies, but about what you want your character to be able to do. I mean, just because you can climb a mountain doesn't mean that you can't *also* dive the ocean. My main character is a very complicated multi-classed arrangement that's often quite the challenge to play. But I find that provides me with more personal enjoyment of the game.

My main character currently has two levels of Rogue, and he can find and disable most traps in the game, even on Elite, and open most locks in the game, even on Elite; he has five levels of Ranger, so he can dual wield most weapons in the game and is quite effective with all manner of ranged weapons, not to mention the fact that he can always heal himself and both heal and repair others in the frequent absence of a Cleric; and he has seven levels of Wizard, meaning that he can cast every arcane spell in the game up through fourth level spells at the moment. To pull this off requires a great depth of understanding for each class's requirements, but also an understanding of how portions of each class's abilities *can* be combined effectively, even if they don't *appear* to be synergistic.

In the end, multi-classing gives *my* character the abilities *I* want him to have, and I enjoy that aspect of the game quite a bit. The drawback is that most players who don't multi-class don't understand it, and aren't willing to open their minds to the associated potential. And, that's why the OP asserted that multi-class characters are relegated to the status of second-class citizens.

Sometimes it's not for others to understand, but rather, to simply accept.

[Mercules]

Yesterday my friend mentioned he was probably replacing one or the other of two pure classed characters as he was getting tired of their limitation. He had min-maxed them to the edge and they were perfect for what they were designed to do... and boring when that wasn't needed. He was talking about multi-classed builds extensively as he could make a character that was good at several things, not just one.

[llevenbaxx]

Yesterday my friend mentioned he was probably replacing one or the other of two pure classed characters as he was getting tired of their limitation. He had min-maxed them to the edge and they were perfect for what they were designed to do... and boring when that wasn't needed. He was talking about multi-classed builds extensively as he could make a character that was good at several things, not just one.

In the same boat here. Just recently deleted a level 14 dwarven fighter to start yet another MC (rog/fighter/wizard).He was a greatly affective character to play but there just wasnt enough to him after playing some of my other characters. It all comes down to how fun the character is to play in the end imo. Thankfully I didnt spend too much time pimping him out.

[Hafeal]

The trend you can see is that multi-classing is really hard in DDO. It can be amazingly successful. Unfortunately, the system is so complicated that you are best playing 1-2 classes to max to learn the game and plan to lay out your character (unless you are following a formula build you find on the forums, for example).

For the thinkers, this is great. For others, such as 10 year old kids, the attention span and concentration is just not the same and interest is easily lost. It is hard to remain disciplined in making a MC character. I think the majority, of kids in particular, want to make whatever whim provides them when they are online.

This is a challenge to DDO because it is so easy to gimp a MC character upon creation.


Kerr, I understand your situation and the reluctance of inviting that build into your party - especially if it was an elite quest. I would offer up, though, that when I am in a group which I lead or which is looking for players, I always advocate taking the first 6 who respond, who are level appropriate, regardless of class(es). It leads to some struggles but more often I find it leads to non-traditional party combinations which are very successful and you learn things about yourself and others as you have by having to solve problems in unique ways. It is like that party that just gets thrown together in pnp and off you go ...
,

[Arianrhod]

To some extent, attitudes towards multiclass characters (and whether to invite them to groups) have to do with playstyle preferences. Some folks want to put together a group they're familiar with and run a quest they're familiar with in a familiar way. This works well for speed runs, loot runs, that sort of thing. Inviting someone you're not sure will "pull their weight" can lead to a quest taking a lot longer than expected. On the other hand are the folks who like to throw together odd combinations of characters and see what happens. When you've done the same quest the same way a certain number of times, you just don't even want to set foot back inside. But with an unusual group makeup, it can be a whole new challenge. As it turns out, people who like to make up multiclass characters are often the same ones who like to run quests in new and interesting ways, so it's not such a bad thing that those are the groups most likely to invite the multiclasser in the first place

[kingfisher]

Thats it. tonight on ghallanda- multi-class only grouping. pure classes need not apply.

[Mercules]

Thats it. tonight on ghallanda- multi-class only grouping. pure classes need not apply.

How do you feel about Splash classes? My Cleric/Rogue I much prefer to play as a Rogue(trapsmith) that can heal/buff instead of a Cleric(healer/buffer) that can trapsmith even though I only have one Rogue level.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

My first toon, and still my main, is a Rgr6/Rog3/Wiz5. He was an evolution in thought that I might have done differently, if I had known all the changes DDO was to have.......but IMO, he is still a very fun toon to play and gives a lot to any party.

However, almost all of my toons since him have been pure classes (until recently)....and I have made a bunch of toons on every server.

Pure classes in DDO have big advantages with the action point system, that multi-classes will never get.
Pure classes are much more accepted.
Pure casters have the highest lvl spells, that are very good in DDO!......plus, all those super high damaging fire walls we are used to do not come from someone with only a few arcane lvls in his build.......can probably say the same about super heal spells as well.

That being said though, I have seen some awesome multi-classed builds......especially as battle clerics......and splash rogues.

I recently have made two versions of what will eventually be a Rog2/Clr7/Wiz5 combo. the one with the most promise will be WF and take the Lord of Blades cleric enhancements. He will be mostly a battle cleric build, with evasion and Blur, Haste and Displacement.
The problem I face with this and other multi-class build ideas is what stats to give them and deciding at what lvl to take which class. Of course the class with the most skill points should be taken first (rogue).....what I think I will do is take all his cleric lvls next.....run him as a highly skilled cleric and I think he will be accepted into parties easily.....then take the Wiz lvls last.

Other ideas are RgrX/Wiz5, BrbX/Brd6?, Pallie mixes.....maybe with Sor.

[Swordalot]

I think, just for insanity, some time I'm gonna roll the ultimate in multiclass characters. I'm going to use a roll to decide alignment. A roll for stat allotment. A roll for race. And then, at each level up, a roll for class. Yup. 3 Cleric / 5 Bard / 6 Barbarian Halfling with 17 dex, 15 int, and 13 strength, here I come.

[Ghaldar]

People who have never tried a multi class tend to be the MOST anti multiclass in the game.....of course they are often the same types that do not understand that there are many ways to skin a cat. I have run across some highly skilled players....and usually they have a unique multiclass build. They understand the game inside and out and build something interesting and new. They have the gear and tomes to build it and make something very solid if not better than pure builds. Enhancements and combination of those and feets make a build...but whatever those who do not like MC never will till the try it and see for themselves how to do it right.

[kingfisher]

How do you feel about Splash classes? My Cleric/Rogue I much prefer to play as a Rogue(trapsmith) that can heal/buff instead of a Cleric(healer/buffer) that can trapsmith even though I only have one Rogue level.

splash classes more than welcome. anything that is thinking outside the box. how likely is it that you would only have ONE profession in your life anyway? Even the doctors of the world steal a few cars before med school.

[ViVid7th]

My first toon, and still my main, is a Rgr6/Rog3/Wiz5. He was an evolution in thought that I might have done differently, if I had known all the changes DDO was to have.......but IMO, he is still a very fun toon to play and gives a lot to any party.

Actually, I can see the viability of a Rgr6/Rog3/Wiz5. 3rd level buffs, fireball tweaked in with TWF, evasion and sneak attack with FE and alot of skill points. Just that Mithril Twilight Armor can be hard to find.

It shows something that might be the sign of a slightly off kilter player, and the crazies are the best.

"Hey, I said I wasn't stupid! I said nothing about sane!"

[Hafeal]

I have run across some highly skilled players....and usually they have a unique multiclass build. They understand the game inside and out and build something interesting and new. They have the gear and tomes to build it and make something very solid if not better than pure builds. Enhancements and combination of those and feets make a build...but whatever those who do not like MC never will till the try it and see for themselves how to do it right.

I don't think the idea is that MC cannot be successful. It can. Unfortunately it is MUCH easier to make a bad or gimped MC build than a good one, which has been acknowledged by the devs.

Thus, for casual players or for players who do not have the same skill, understanding, tools, and/or loot, MC can be frustrating and discouraging.

I believe suggesting ways to make MC more viable for a broader audience is a good idea.

[Invalid_86]

Multiclassed characters have three other hurdles ahead of them that they don't have in PnP.

1. Enhancements. Among the balance problems that they bring is a discouragement to multiclass. They heavily favor single class characters.

2. Lack of real Prestige Classes.

3. The spell point system. In PnP casters have to rely more on lower level spells- they can't just spam a handful of higher level spells.

It's a shame. Multiclassing is fun in pnp.

[PhoenixRajoNight]

Hi,

I have been playing for a few months now and have noticed an issue with trying to play a true multi class, by "True" I mean keeping the levels close for each class. Many groups I have encountered will not ask you to join because you can't yet access a specific spell or feat because you don't have the levels and since your multi-classed you never will. Also, you are penalized in quests, especially solo quests because you character is level 6, but your individual levels are either 3/3 or 2/2/2 and you don't have the skills a normal level 6 would have.

It may make more sense to set your character level not based on levels but based overall on your highest level. So a character who is 4/2/2 would be treated as a level 4 character for the purposes of quests until you are able to advance a class above 4. Their individual advancement would remain as 4,2 or 2 for the respective class advancement. I understand this may take longer for a multi-class to raise levels, but once they did raise levels they would have the power and skills they deserve for taking the time to level multiple classes. A character who is a level 8 fighter, level 7 rouge and level 6 wizard should be able to access all their skills, they have earned them, but under the current rules you will never be able to advance a multi class beyond 8/8 or 5/5/6.

If you build your character right your fine, if your making multiclass chars that are effective to chars lvls below you, then your not making a good multiclass, sorry but until they implement prestige classes, this is just going to happen. Mystic Thuerge is a nice prestige class, but you'll never see it because peeps alrdy whin that spellies are overpowered.

[sigtrent]

Multiclassed characters have three other hurdles ahead of them that they don't have in PnP.
1. Enhancements. Among the balance problems that they bring is a discouragement to multiclass. They heavily favor single class characters..

At the moment enhancements actualy favor mulit class characters in a number of ways. A dual class character can buy 4 stat bumps for the same cost of 3 on a pure class due to the progressive costs. The top tier enhancements are often prohibitively expensive and a multi class has a wider range of enhancements to choose from.

2. Lack of real Prestige Classes.

I always found multi classing was more a short cut to Prestige Classes than Prestige Classes were a benefit to multi classing.

3. The spell point system. In PnP casters have to rely more on lower level spells- they can't just spam a handful of higher level spells. .

I agree here. Multi classing is difficult for casters but I find that in PnP as well. Prestige classes are what make multi classing casters more possible due to those "caster level" bumps.

[Luthen]

Hi,

I have been playing for a few months now and have noticed an issue with trying to play a true multi class, by "True" I mean keeping the levels close for each class. Many groups I have encountered will not ask you to join because you can't yet access a specific spell or feat because you don't have the levels and since your multi-classed you never will. Also, you are penalized in quests, especially solo quests because you character is level 6, but your individual levels are either 3/3 or 2/2/2 and you don't have the skills a normal level 6 would have.

It may make more sense to set your character level not based on levels but based overall on your highest level. So a character who is 4/2/2 would be treated as a level 4 character for the purposes of quests until you are able to advance a class above 4. Their individual advancement would remain as 4,2 or 2 for the respective class advancement. I understand this may take longer for a multi-class to raise levels, but once they did raise levels they would have the power and skills they deserve for taking the time to level multiple classes. A character who is a level 8 fighter, level 7 rouge and level 6 wizard should be able to access all their skills, they have earned them, but under the current rules you will never be able to advance a multi class beyond 8/8 or 5/5/6.

I'd say you need to design a better multi-class or something. I'm not being rude just practical. I have a few multi-class builds and each of them is strengthened by their build not hindered. At every level they have done well. Perhaps you just need to think harder about what you're mixing and why.

[Kaboth]

What ticks me off is the fact I have an archer build that doesnt qualify for the Deep Woods Sniper stuff simply because he is not 6 levels of ranger.

[binnsr]

What ticks me off is the fact I have an archer build that doesnt qualify for the Deep Woods Sniper stuff simply because he is not 6 levels of ranger.

or mine that doesn't qualify because she isn't 6 ranger or elf (human 14ftr/2rgr stuck at 3f/2r atm )

[Invalid_86]

What ticks me off is the fact I have an archer build that doesnt qualify for the Deep Woods Sniper stuff simply because he is not 6 levels of ranger.

Now if we had real Prestige Classes you and other multi-class characters wouldn't have that problem!