Multi-Class as a second class citizen

[Hafeal]

The old multiclass system was badly broken, as was dual classing. It was way too inexpensive to gain class features. In the current, and much more balanced system, there is a steep price for multiclassing. That being said, people do it all the time. But most multiclassing is really just a "splash" of something else.

Well, I would argue that the attempt to balance in DDO, by following the 3.0/3.5 rules has made multi-class a generally difficult option, especially for casual players and/or players who do not have uber loot. HSinclair said before she left Turbine that she would never multi-class. I think for the vast, non-powergaming universe, that is sound advice. I find "splash" multi-classing the "inexpensive" work-around which could be called into question.

I find it ironic in many ways. DDO seems "afraid" to give power to true multi-class, perhaps due to "inexpensive" prices that might be gained from sharing in different classes. Yet DDO gives the power right back to classes with UMD and unlimited supplies of non-class restricted clickies.

Which is more to the heart of D&D - creating a character that has well-rounded abilities and working at them or giving classes "free" abilities they would not otherwise have from loot such as haste clickies, unlimited healing pots, etc.?

I guess I just have to question the whole "balance" argument given the state of DDO today. If DDO was truer to pnp rules on loot distriubution, perhaps I would find the balance argument better. I would rather see people invest in multi-classing than be given magic items that circumvent having to go without abilities or rely on their party members. And for the soloers, if multi-classing, without the whole "synergy" requirement (and who determines synergy anyway? why can't a fighter and magic user have synergy in a made-up world?) they would be better able and equipped to handle quests as well.

[Mercules]

(and who determines synergy anyway? why can't a fighter and magic user have synergy in a made-up world?)

Warrior class and arcane caster can have great synergy, but it depends on what you do.

For example. You could go with a Paladin/Sorcerer and be a bit more balanced in the two classes than a splash. The shared Charisma helps out. The Sorcerer side give them excellent SPs and the Paladin side can give them self healing and buffs spells so they can skip some of them as they choose their Sorcerer spells. The arcane buffs can be very handy on top of the divine buffs Paladins get. I'm throwing a build together in a planner to see if it is something I would consider playing.

[kruggar]

I did not bother with 3.0 rules as many people I spoke to at that time hated it. I have however enjoyed the 3.5 rules, though many of the people I play with PNP are new so I have not had to get into the changes for multi-classing as of yet. I see I am not the only one who has gotten some odd responses from other players when joining a group. I actually had one guy fight with me that multi-classes are useless and was kicked from the group *which was the reason I started the post in the first place*.

Some people in the guild I am in have been using character builders, are they any good for helping to determine how a multi-class will be further down the road?

For me character builders help a lot in determining if a build will work, but unfortunaltly in paper is better then in live version, many of my builds appeared great in planning but didnt worked that well in game. the answer is experiece, try it, enjoy it, and if it didnt worked then go back to planning.

[kingfisher]

to me multiclassing is the best part of this game. it allows you to customize your character. you can do that is a pure class with feats and enhancements, yes, but training in differnet classes at differnet levels in your career reflects on where your character was at that point, this matters more for the RP aspect of the game. i have multi classed rangers and had great success with adding levels of rogue, fighter, barb, and cleric thus far. my nest will be a ranger/pally/bard. As said above, sticking to a class you know and adding varitey through multiclassing is a good way to start. as long as you know your role and stick to your gameplan almost any build can work up to a point. i doubt i will ever have a pure class character unless its an arcane caster. too boring for me. granted some of these builds will not tear the face off a dragon in half a second but they can be successful with proper tactics, which is what makes the game fun.

[Hafeal]

I agree with your example. But, I would guess it will not be a "true" multi-class split (7/7) for most players but rather the "splash" class system which has developed in DDO. And who is to say that you cannot be a great cleric / fighter? A great sorc / rogue? I guess I would argue that there are more combinations which are difficult than not in DDO.

Many players base their perception of class from the fantasy/sci-fi literature they have read or from the movies. And people want to build characters in that vein or by what their imagination inspires them to create. It is my feeling that your imagination is limited because multi-class characters are limited.

There was a thread not to long ago that explored the learning curve for new DDO players. One thing which was discovered is that it is much easier to make a "mistake" in creating characters than to make truly successful characters. Add to this the desire of people to want to try and be creative by trying different combination of classes.

Now, as people find they cannot play well or their character is "gimped", they may resent the game, not enjoy it and move on. That is not what I would like to see.

I prefer a system that penalizes less and allows players to creative. DDO is pretty good (though not as good as pnp). Being pretty good does not mean we should not consider improvements. I think reasonable improvements to multi-classing should be considered.

Warrior class and arcane caster can have great synergy, but it depends on what you do.

For example. You could go with a Paladin/Sorcerer and be a bit more balanced in the two classes than a splash. The shared Charisma helps out. The Sorcerer side give them excellent SPs and the Paladin side can give them self healing and buffs spells so they can skip some of them as they choose their Sorcerer spells. The arcane buffs can be very handy on top of the divine buffs Paladins get. I'm throwing a build together in a planner to see if it is something I would consider playing.

[MrCow]

my nest will be a ranger/pally/bard

Paladins can't multiclass with bards or barbarians.

[kingfisher]

Paladins can't multiclass with bards or barbarians.

srsly? because of alignment right? doh. so maybe just ranger/bard then. doesn't sound as good. just an idea at this point anyway

[Invalid_86]

In PnP multiclassing like that is pretty cool. In DDO, due to a lack of real prestige classes, it is often a handicap. Not saying that you can't make it work, just that you are often putting obstacles in your own way. Now if DDO actually puts in prestige classes we'd see a whole different story!

[Raithe]

Its important to realize, and some posters have already pointed this out, that the problems with multi-classing in DDO are almost entirely problems of player perception. You could list me any triple-class permutation in the game, and I could point out how it could be made a viable alternative for end game with the right ability scores, skills, and feat selection. Those last three characteristics are what make 90% of a DDO character, and no one gets to see those but the player. Why we get to see their class(es), and not their character sheet, is beyond my comprehension.

I've run with more totally useless pure level 14 barbarians than I have gimped multi-classed characters. In fact, I'm not sure I've ever run with a gimped multi-class character.

[MysticTheurge]

The idea of a true multiclass, as you put it, does not exist anymore. That went the way of the dodo and TSR.

I'm going to kind of disagree here.

The D&D 3.5 rules strongly encourage you to keep your classes within 1 level of each other (with the few exceptions created by Favored Classes) and thus, even under 3.5, one could consider 7/7 to more of a "true multiclass" than 2/12.

[Invalid_86]

Just out of curiosity what effect do you think it would have on the game if DDO actually enforced the multiclassing xp penalty/favored class rules from 3.5?

[Riorik]

Hi,

It may make more sense to set your character level not based on levels but based overall on your highest level. So a character who is 4/2/2 would be treated as a level 4 character for the purposes of quests until you are able to advance a class above 4. Their individual advancement would remain as 4,2 or 2 for the respective class advancement. .

What you describe is a little similar to how 1st Edition AD&D treated multiclass characters. Not exact, but similar - without getting into a long explanation, it's a bit flawed and unbalanced. As another mentioned, some classes mesh well and others do not - how do you judge when you have an effective build and when you do not?

[MysticTheurge]

Just out of curiosity what effect do you think it would have on the game if DDO actually enforced the multiclassing xp penalty/favored class rules from 3.5?

As they're written in D&D?

It would have no effect what-so-ever. There's more than enough XP in DDO, and, with a few exceptions, you don't have a static group of other people to "keep up with" so a % XP penalty would be pointless.

It might affect particularly casual players, but most people wouldn't care that they were getting 10% less XP overall. They'd still hit the cap relatively quickly and then it would be entirely irrelevant.

(As a side note, this is also why the Level Adjustment rules, as they're written in D&D would be pretty pointless.)

[Geonis]

srsly? because of alignment right? doh. so maybe just ranger/bard then. doesn't sound as good. just an idea at this point anyway

Ranger/Bard is seriously awesome. Especially with the upcoming fixes to ranged combat, my Ranger 2/Bard 11 is going to melt face!!! With my Bard songs, Elf Bow Enhancements (to damage, as my to hit is plenty high), a good Str, and the Rage spell, my damage bonus is pretty darn high and add in the effect bows and Manyshot and you can start to see what is possible.

My only regret is after I hit 10 Bard/2 Ranger, I was thinking of adding 2 Ftr to get Precise Shot and Imp Precise Shot, I instead went for another level of Bard.

[Invalid_86]

(As a side note, this is also why the Level Adjustment rules, as they're written in D&D would be pretty pointless.)

Unless your level adjusted cap was a normal character's cap you're right. To make it fair if the current cap is 14th level then a +2 LA character's cap should be 12th level. This could have/should have been done with Drow when they came out but, well, yeah.

[Hvymetal]

Unless your level adjusted cap was a normal character's cap you're right. To make it fair if the current cap is 14th level then a +2 LA character's cap should be 12th level. This could have/should have been done with Drow when they came out but, well, yeah.

Now that would have been an interesting development had they done it that way..

[Mad_Bombardier]

Now that would have been an interesting development had they done it that way..

They would have had to have let Drow get full SR (with no enhancements), but yes LA would have been nice for Drow.

[ehcsztein]

Anyone actually playing a 7\7 anything out there? How is it working for you?

I got a halfling 7 ranger 7 fighter going right now. I absolutely love it. Going to 9/7 at 16.

The build is driven by feat and enhancement flexibility for respec at higher levels. Figure at 20 it'll be something like 12/8 or so.

This will allow me to tweak enhancements and feat combos to accomplish many play styles within one build.

It is one of my original 28 pt builds and has yet to hit 1750 but still does really well.

Recently started a 32+tome rebuild following basically the same progression.

[Invalid_86]

The old multiclass system was badly broken, as was dual classing.

Who can forget the ultimate in badly applied dual classing rules- the 1st edition Bard!

Man for being such an iconic rules set in hindsight it was really badly written. But you have to start somewhere, right?

[Ildaron]

They would have had to have let Drow get full SR (with no enhancements), but yes LA would have been nice for Drow.

Racial spells as well.