Stone of Change - Eldritch Rituals Cookbook

[binnsr]

So your conclusion is that EDN/MEP/EDP+MEN would give the MEN Upgrade because the Ns match? I have a sinking feeling that this was not an ideal implementation for determining the 3rd upgrade (aspect version) - really should get both since the power of both is in the combined shard, it would be way simpler to understand, and give us even cooler stuff

/gets out picket sign with 'We want our Cooler Stuffs!' and marches around shouting random strike slogans.

Seriously, though, it would be a lot easier for folks to understand if it was the way you're describing .. I've already got guildies that are ready to hang up the crafting hat because things were too complicated before these 3rd tier combinations were discovered (and thats with planner spreadsheets and websites to help them out - we have both in guild now )

[vyvy3369]

Finger Necklace was definitely adding in with Healers Friend multiplier. How this works on Humans is still unknown (might be different with mutliplier >1). How it works with Green Steel Healing Amplification is also unknown.

Kargon was on a human character with the 30% Human bonus, 30% Green Steel Healing Amplification, and 10% Finger Necklace when I posted about the 275, and each part individually was working as expected and also stacked. Yes it was odd that the 10% was only off of the original 154 (110 * 1.4 wand/scroll enhancement), but it's still an extra 10%. I don't think we tried Finger Necklace w/o his Green Steel weapon, but I'd assume it would be 215.

[Borror0]

While all those things seem possible, they also seem unlikely.

My money's on "First in line is the one that counts."

Couldn't it be by "deafult", ie always the same for the same foci mix?

If so, it could by "what it's 'closer' to". Mineral is closer to Earth, Lightning to Air. Smoke would be closer to air, etc.

[MysticTheurge]

Couldn't it be by "deafult", ie always the same for the same foci mix?

If so, it could by "what it's 'closer' to". Mineral is closer to Earth, Lightning to Air. Smoke would be closer to air, etc.

It could be. But if I were designing the system I wouldn't see a reason to limit which of the two actual third tier abilities people could get based on which third tier combo ability they wanted.

[Raidon]

So your conclusion is that EDN/MEP/EDP+MEN would give the MEN Upgrade because the Ns match? I have a sinking feeling that this was not an ideal implementation for determining the 3rd upgrade (aspect version) - really should get both since the power of both is in the combined shard, it would be way simpler to understand, and give us even cooler stuff

No, to Clarify , i mean the first supreme imbued shard placed in the altar of devastation , when combining 2 supreme imbued shards together.

So for your example the Supreme Power Granted would be EDP Only. Furthermore until we have proof that two different Gems/Essences can be used ( which i'm doubting) EDN should be used to upgrade to Existential Stalemate II, not MEN.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Kargon was on a human character with the 30% Human bonus, 30% Green Steel Healing Amplification, and 10% Finger Necklace when I posted about the 275, and each part individually was working as expected and also stacked. Yes it was odd that the 10% was only off of the original 154 (110 * 1.4 wand/scroll enhancement), but it's still an extra 10%. I don't think we tried Finger Necklace w/o his Green Steel weapon, but I'd assume it would be 215.

vyvy, thanks for following up. I didn't want to derail this thread anymore, so I moved the discussion to a new thread in Strategy. Gol's calculation has merit. But, I can't test without a Healing Amp Green Steel. I'd love to see the results for healing kargon with Finger necklace and no Green Steel.

[oronisi]

Couldn't it be by "deafult", ie always the same for the same foci mix?

If so, it could by "what it's 'closer' to". Mineral is closer to Earth, Lightning to Air. Smoke would be closer to air, etc.

That's all just your opinion though...to me lightning would be closer to positive, since lightning is just energy, not air (wind). It's most likely the first in gets used as that's simple and efficient and removes the need for yet another lookup table during crafting.

[jjflanigan]

I just don't think it would make sense, from a programming perspective (or from a game logic perspective) for it to matter what order you put the shards into the Altar -- Earth + Pos + Cell should (and I'll bet 5 small ingredients is) the same as Pos + Earth + Cell. Which leaves something else being used to determine which is the dominant aspect during the tier 3 combine. Either something always wins out (i.e. Earth always beats Positive) {which I doubt} or you can control it by a specific use of gem / essence when making the two sub-shards.

Granted, until someone performs an already done upgrade (using the same gem, essence and focus) and has the only difference being the order in which they are placed in the altar when fused, we won't know for sure.

[MysticTheurge]

I just don't think it would make sense, from a programming perspective (or from a game logic perspective) for it to matter what order you put the shards into the Altar -- Earth + Pos + Cell should (and I'll bet 5 small ingredients is) the same as Pos + Earth + Cell. Which leaves something else being used to determine which is the dominant aspect during the tier 3 combine. Either something always wins out (i.e. Earth always beats Positive) {which I doubt} or you can control it by a specific use of gem / essence when making the two sub-shards.

Granted, until someone performs an already done upgrade (using the same gem, essence and focus) and has the only difference being the order in which they are placed in the altar when fused, we won't know for sure.

Sure it makes sense from those perspectives:

Programming - Locate first shard, this is your base. If there's a second shard, compare focuses with the base shard and add an "aspect" to the base shard as appropriate.

Game - This is pretty much the same except you're just absorbing one shard into the other. It may not really provide a reason why one shard is the base and the other is subsumed, but it logically makes sense for it to happen.

In addition, and more importantly for me, it makes sense from a game balance/crafting perspective. Why would you make it so that certain Aspect II combinations can only be made with specific combinations of Tier III abilities? If I'm going to let them make an Ooze II weapon why would I force them to only be able to select EOE or WDM or whatever, as opposed to all the earth and water Tier III abilities that are available?

[EspyLacopa]

I just don't think it would make sense, from a programming perspective (or from a game logic perspective) for it to matter what order you put the shards into the Altar -- Earth + Pos + Cell should (and I'll bet 5 small ingredients is) the same as Pos + Earth + Cell. Which leaves something else being used to determine which is the dominant aspect during the tier 3 combine. Either something always wins out (i.e. Earth always beats Positive) {which I doubt} or you can control it by a specific use of gem / essence when making the two sub-shards.

Granted, until someone performs an already done upgrade (using the same gem, essence and focus) and has the only difference being the order in which they are placed in the altar when fused, we won't know for sure.

If order does matter, it means that the number of potential combinations for the Tier 3 upgrade will go from to 36 up to 216 combos. 21 basic combo effects, however the order matters for deciding which is the dominant focus. That means, not counting Pure Focus combos (of which there are 6), that'd give 30 Focus combos. Toss in 2 Essences for each, and then 3 Gems for each, and that would give an effective number of 180 combos, along with the 36 basic tier three upgrades.

so. . .That means there's 279,936 different combinations, double that to include both Weapons and Accessories. (559,872)

[EspyLacopa]

Sure it makes sense from those perspectives:

Programming - Locate first shard, this is your base. If there's a second shard, compare focuses with the base shard and add an "aspect" to the base shard as appropriate.

Game - This is pretty much the same except you're just absorbing one shard into the other. It may not really provide a reason why one shard is the base and the other is subsumed, but it logically makes sense for it to happen.

In addition, and more importantly for me, it makes sense from a game balance/crafting perspective. Why would you make it so that certain Aspect II combinations can only be made with specific combinations of Tier III abilities? If I'm going to let them make an Ooze II weapon why would I force them to only be able to select EOE or WDM or whatever, as opposed to all the earth and water Tier III abilities that are available?

Ah yes, game balance:

Morningstar with +6 Charisma(+EE), +6 Wisdom(Any Negative on second Tier for Existential Stalemate), and then do a combined Shard: (AEE)with (EEE) for a +2 Exceptional bonus to Charisma and Wisdom. Net item of +8 Cha and Wisdom, and possibly +2 Insight AC if the Second Tier Negative goes (-EO).

[SneakThief]

I just don't think it would make sense, from a programming perspective (or from a game logic perspective) for it to matter what order you put the shards into the Altar

It makes perfect sense from a programming perspective. Loop through the items in the window. If its a power cell, register power cell present. If its an imbued shard: If there was no previous one, assign as primary; If there was a previous one and they dont combine fail, else assign secondary. If there are extra ingredients, fail. After the loop: If there is no power cell or no secondary, fail. Add combo attribute (Para/Quasi/Spec) to primary. Return Primary.

It eliminates the need for a lookup for which one it should use. It eliminates defining out a list of shards that have to be run through for each combo. It eliminates defining effects for each combo. AND it adds flexibilty for the users.

That said ... I will be doing a Neg/Pos shard in 8 more ingredients.

[MysticTheurge]

Ah yes, game balance:

Morningstar with +6 Charisma(+EE), +6 Wisdom(Any Negative on second Tier for Existential Stalemate), and then do a combined Shard: (AEE)with (EEE) for a +2 Exceptional bonus to Charisma and Wisdom. Net item of +8 Cha and Wisdom, and possibly +2 Insight AC if the Second Tier Negative goes (-EO).

???

I'm not saying you should be able to get both abilities. I'm just saying it doesn't make sense to restrict people to a specific ability.

Why would it require you to make +2 charisma/Existential Stalemate II shard and not allow +2 intelligence/Existential Stalemate II shard?

[jjflanigan]

It makes perfect sense from a programming perspective. Loop through the items in the window. If its a power cell, register power cell present. If its an imbued shard: If there was no previous one, assign as primary; If there was a previous one and they dont combine fail, else assign secondary. If there are extra ingredients, fail. After the loop: If there is no power cell or no secondary, fail. Add combo attribute (Para/Quasi/Spec) to primary. Return Primary.

It eliminates the need for a lookup for which one it should use. It eliminates defining out a list of shards that have to be run through for each combo. It eliminates defining effects for each combo. AND it adds flexibilty for the users.

That said ... I will be doing a Neg/Pos shard in 8 more ingredients.

I suppose we'll see when you do it, however I still maintain that order won't be the deciding factor Of course, I don't know for sure, since I've not had a chance to play with the altar of devestation at all, but from everything I've seen so far, order controlling the outcome just doesn't appear to mesh for me.

[Cambo]

If order does matter, it means that the number of potential combinations for the Tier 3 upgrade will go from to 36 up to 216 combos. 21 basic combo effects, however the order matters for deciding which is the dominant focus. That means, not counting Pure Focus combos (of which there are 6), that'd give 30 Focus combos. Toss in 2 Essences for each, and then 3 Gems for each, and that would give an effective number of 180 combos, along with the 36 basic tier three upgrades.

so. . .That means there's 279,936 different combinations, double that to include both Weapons and Accessories. (559,872)

Not all combinations are available for all aspect II effects....Im not going to try and do the math but it should reduce the numbers some what.

[Tanka]

I'm rather curious to find out what the Pos/Air combo is for a weapon.

[Mad_Bombardier]

I'm rather curious to find out what the Pos/Air combo is for a weapon.

While the individual upgrades for Air/Air/Air are Shock, the bonus effects are Haste and knockdown for tier2 and tier3.
We know that Pos/Air = Aspect of Lightning at tier2/Subjugation, so definitely something Lightning oriented for tier3/Devastation. Now we just need some enterprising crafter to discover it!

[Justicesar]

So if you were going for the line that gives you earth grab...E/D/M line...is that the best it can be or could you fuse 2 shards at 3 to get something else along with earth grab????

[Ironwind]

Rather than making the assumption that the order the Imbued Shards of Supreme Power are placed into the altar will generate the tier 3 effect, why not consider that it is the order in which tier 1 and tier 2 were enchanted?

Edana used this combination:
1st tier -EE
2nd tier +EE
3rd tier (+/-)EE

So, perhaps, the 2nd tier aspect determines the 3rd tier aspect.
After all, we know that the altar of subjugation is more powerful than the altar of invasion.
So, the item has more positive aspect than negative.

Just a thought.

Props to Edana for sharing with the rest of the community.

[Tanka]

While the individual upgrades for Air/Air/Air are Shock, the bonus effects are Haste and knockdown for tier2 and tier3.
We know that Pos/Air = Aspect of Lightning at tier2/Subjugation, so definitely something Lightning oriented for tier3/Devastation. Now we just need some enterprising crafter to discover it!

Yup. It may be me, but I'm crafting Holy/Holy/Holy first because I'm weird (and want a better undead basher for Cursed Crypt runs).

If I can get enough ingredients and some guild aid, I may give it a shot. Assuming nobody else reaches for it first.