Stone of Change - Eldritch Rituals Cookbook

[Cambo]

Heard a roumor that one of the guys from the other threads on the topic have the tier 3 thing sorted but havent posted yet.
If anyone knows them could we get an update

[MysticTheurge]

I asked Eladrin the following...

Can more than one imbued shard of power be applied to a green steel blank at each altar? More specifically, can three shards of power be applied at each altar, since there are two additional empty slots in the device when you upgrade an item.

To which he replied...

Very careful wording: All imbuing recipes that include a greensteel weapon or item use only one shard of power.

That is an exact quote, to include the phrase "Very careful wording:" Now... perhaps you can help me with the meaning.

To me, this says that there is another set of recipes out there that we haven't figured out yet that don't involve a green steel item.

Possibility 1) A supreme shard can be imbued multiple times. Perform the imbuing process once, then perform it again.

Possibility 2) There's a recipe involving two shards but not a green steel item. In some way, you can make two imbued shards and then combine them into a single shard. Has anyone tried putting imbued Great Shards in the altar of invasion? Perhaps you can combine two smaller shards into a single supreme shard.

(I'm actually leaning towards possibility 2, since it would make the most sense with Eladrin's statement above. His statement implies that there are recipes involving two-plus shards, but that they don't also include a green steel weapon at the same time.)

It seems highly likely to me that the way to find para- or quasi- tier III effects is not simply to find the right single focus to add, but that it involves somehow mixing two different focuses into a single shard.

[ENGRAV0]

You know, tha "Very Careful Wording" COULD refer to the WORD "Weapon".

[Boldrin]

You know, tha "Very Careful Wording" COULD refer to the WORD "Weapon".

Says weapon or item, covering all green steel things

[squiddaddy]

To me, this says that there is another set of recipes out there that we haven't figured out yet that don't involve a green steel item.

Possibility 1) A supreme shard can be imbued multiple times. Perform the imbuing process once, then perform it again.

Possibility 2) There's a recipe involving two shards but not a green steel item. In some way, you can make two imbued shards and then combine them into a single shard. Has anyone tried putting imbued Great Shards in the altar of invasion? Perhaps you can combine two smaller shards into a single supreme shard.

(I'm actually leaning towards possibility 2, since it would make the most sense with Eladrin's statement above. His statement implies that there are recipes involving two-plus shards, but that they don't also include a green steel weapon at the same time.)

It seems highly likely to me that the way to find para- or quasi- tier III effects is not simply to find the right single focus to add, but that it involves somehow mixing two different focuses into a single shard.

3) greensteel recipes may contain something in addition to item+shard+cell, anyone tried "item+shard+cell+fire+water"
or "item+shard(fire)+cell+water"?

4) shards may be imbued differently than the current pattern, for example "shard+cell+fire+water+opposition"
or "shard+cell+fire+fire+water"
forgive me if i'm wrong here but has the list of combinations here actually been exhausted? or have we just found
a pattern and ignored the rest?

5) you may combine an item with a shard more than once.

these possibilities leave room for a "dominant" focus. It seems improbable that you could get two tier 3 upgrades+a bonus. so one must be more distinct somehow. of course this could determined by tier one order. or perhaps even that you get two upgrades and no bonus.

regarding the order of upgrades, I think this is unlikely to yield anything. It seems clear to me from the responses given that after the second tier upgrade you no longer have focus/focus, you have something new. so air/positive becomes lightning, and only by adding lightning will you gain anything. assuming (hoping) here we're not going any further down the combinations path.

this is for my benefit only, as i haven't been following this closely, but taking a step back away from alternative recipes, has anyone simply tried a unique elemental combination? there are only 4 and seem to me to be prime suspects for specialness
air fire water
air fire earth
air water earth
fire water earth....

for the record, my money is on simply imbuing a shard a second time, either with "imbued shard+imbued shard+cell(maybe)"
or "imbued shard+ingredients+cell(maybe)"
my vorpal double mace is on shard+shard as it is consistant with all the clues we've been given, and i don't rate expense as an excuse not to. after all how many antique bronze tokens did you collect before they admitted it was a pointless?

[squiddaddy]

double post

[Naso24]

"Very careful wording: All imbuing recipes that include a greensteel weapon or item use only one shard of power."

I keyed in on the word "use". This might mean that while multiples can be placed in the altar, only one is consumed.

The other interesting word is "one".

It could mean that if multiples are to be used, only one is a shard of power, while the other is a great or superior.

[MysticTheurge]

these possibilities leave room for a "dominant" focus. It seems improbable that you could get two tier 3 upgrades+a bonus. so one must be more distinct somehow. of course this could determined by tier one order. or perhaps even that you get two upgrades and no bonus.

It is possible that a "Magma" shard gives a single tier III upgrade that is different from either the Fire or the Earth upgrades of the same sort.

[squiddaddy]

"Very careful wording: All imbuing recipes that include a greensteel weapon or item use only one shard of power."

I keyed in on the word "use". This might mean that while multiples can be placed in the altar, only one is consumed.

The other interesting word is "one".

It could mean that if multiples are to be used, only one is a shard of power, while the other is a great or superior.

both interpretations seem very unlikely to me, but the second one brings up another possibility.

"greensteel weapon....shard of power", perhaps this sentence refers only to tier 1 upgrades.
this still leaves room for shard+shard+item at tier 3. oh noes!

[MysticTheurge]

"greensteel weapon....shard of power", perhaps this sentence refers only to tier 1 upgrades.
this still leaves room for shard+shard+item at tier 3. oh noes!

It seems likely that when Eladrin says "Shard of Power" he means any kind of shard of power, regardless of type. A Supreme Shard of Power is still a Shard of Power, in the same way that a Yellow School Bus is still a School Bus.

[Wulf_Ratbane]

Yes I agree that this is a possibility, but I still think that exploring the 'simplier' options is a good place to start - once we reach a deadend, the more complex suggestions (e.g. mixing essences/gems, or using 2x shards, or combining shards - all good ideas) can be fully explored.

I'm not even in the ballpark as far as doing any of my own testing goes.

But I just wanted to point this out:

Far better to have all the ingredients you need at Tier 3-- including two shards of Power. Then you can test two shards at once, and if it doesn't work, you're no worse off. Move to test #2 and try A>B>A.

If you test A>B>A first, it's definitely going to do something and consume your ingredients, and then you're back at square 1 for testing the two shard theory.

That's a lot more work to recover from.

Basically, if you want to experiment, experiment with entirely new recipes, since they are the most likely to return your ingredients to you.

This is the path of wisdom that Smithers seems to be following. Look how much information he gathered by not using his ingredients on something that-- from a recipe standpoint-- we already know is going to "work" whether or not it unlocks a Special.

[Cambo]

Heard a roumor that one of the guys from the other threads on the topic have the tier 3 thing sorted but havent posted yet.
If anyone knows them could we get an update

We should probably keep speculation down now until we get some more results.
Too many pages confusing people and little real list information in the last 2 pages of posts.

[squiddaddy]

It is possible that a "Magma" shard gives a single tier III upgrade that is different from either the Fire or the Earth upgrades of the same sort.

corrected. This would increase the number of effects by a large amount.
there are 14 now, if you assume only the foci matters and the effects are new it becomes 44.
it seems unlikely they could give bonuses within the current set, greater magma guard, greater salt guard etc etc
the other alternative is with gem/essence still mattering which yields a number of effects too large for me to figure out without looking like a loser.

[squiddaddy]

It seems likely that when Eladrin says "Shard of Power" he means any kind of shard of power, regardless of type. A Supreme Shard of Power is still a Shard of Power, in the same way that a Yellow School Bus is still a School Bus.

lol yeah i was overinterpreting the sentence, there was a clue.
And just to be pendantic for a second, a yellow school bus is only a "still a school bus" as long as you restrict yourself to a certain list of characteristics.
Is an armored schoolbus with a howitzer on top a school bus or a tank? both? neither? tankbus FTW!
how about a schoolbus that doesn't drive children to school anymore?
one mans bent longsword is another mans scimitar.

[Grimshadow]

Maybe Eldarin was refering to making a trinket item. You can already equipt it in that slot. Has anyone tried to combine charged shards onto a blank? I am thinking if you can it would create the trinket and allow to put it into the next tier altar.

[apious1]

According to the Devs, there are three types of elemental upgrades: Para, Quasi, and "special". My vocabulary is pretty good but I keep getting caught up on the definitions for Para and Quasi. Here are the definitions according to Merriam Webster:
Para - beside : alongside of
Quasi - having some resemblance usually by possession of certain attributes

Would it be possible for the Dev's to simply explain a little further as to what "Para" and "Quasi" are exactly and maybe provide an example?

I assume by "Para" they mean the same elements are used all three times, e.g. Air + Air + Air and Quasi would be a combo of various elements, e.g. Fire + Earth + "X".

Finally, this leaves "special". They have said that there are no "Para-Quasi" combo's, e.g. Air + Air + "X". So what is "special"? Are "Positive" and "Negative" not considered elements and therefore equal "special"?

BTW, I had a friend research this and he found a document which states "Para" is the combining of two elements and "Quasi" is the combining of three elements. If this is the case then there are technically four possible elemental combo's Linear, Para, Quasi, and "special".

I am just thinking out loud but I hope the Dev's respond with an answer to my first question just to help clarify what they have already said.

[stockwizard5]

1. There are already rituals that do not require a power cell at the Stone of Change - maybe thats the reference?

2. Exisitential Stalemate is +6 WIS to weapons and +4 WIS to items AND SCEPTORS (at least)

[MysticTheurge]

Would it be possible for the Dev's to simply explain a little further as to what "Para" and "Quasi" are exactly and maybe provide an example?

In traditional D&D cosmology, a paraelement is one composed of two of the four primary elements. They are:

Fire + Earth = Magma
Earth + Water = Ooze
Water + Air = Ice
Air + Fire = Smoke

The quasielements are composed of one of the four primary elements and either positive or negative energy. The are:

Fire + Positive = Radiance
Fire + Negative = Ash
Earth + Positive = Mineral
Earth + Negative = Dust
Water + Positive = Steam
Water + Negative = Salt
Air + Positive = Lightning
Air + Negative = Vacuum

There are also some para-quasi-elements you can create by combining the four paraelements (Magma, Ooze, Ice, Smoke) with positive and negative energy, but since Eladrin has said those aren't involved I won't go into them here.

[Big-Dex]

Maybe Eldarin was refering to making a trinket item. You can already equipt it in that slot. Has anyone tried to combine charged shards onto a blank? I am thinking if you can it would create the trinket and allow to put it into the next tier altar.

Yes... I have tried this on the Altar of Invasion. Double check my post.

5) you may combine an item with a shard more than once.

I have tried this on the Altar of Invasion (Teir 1) and on the Altar of Subjugation (Teir 2). No go.

It could mean that if multiples are to be used, only one is a shard of power, while the other is a great or superior.

If memory serves me right, I tried this on the Altar of Invasion (Teir 1) with a great shard of power. No go. (But I will double check to be sure next time I am in there).

Possibility 2) There's a recipe involving two shards but not a green steel item. In some way, you can make two imbued shards and then combine them into a single shard. Has anyone tried putting imbued Great Shards in the altar of invasion? Perhaps you can combine two smaller shards into a single supreme shard.

Tried part 1 of this. No go. Have not tried an imbued great shard into the Altar of Invasion. I can try this in my next two runs. Have not tried the supreme shard.

I read something different into this.... How about making 3 different Imbued shards , or even 2 , and trying to combine them, in effect making 1 shard with higher power to put on your Green Steel blank.

Tried and failed. This was the premise of my original experiment based on Eladrin's carefully worded phrase. Please read original post.

I will get back to you on the results of today's testing later tonight. We will crack this nut at some point here... In the meanwhile...

[MysticTheurge]

Tried part 1 of this. No go. Have not tried an imbued great shard into the Altar of Invasion. I can try this in my next two runs. Have not tried the supreme shard.

Heh, weird. I actually meant to say the Altar of Devestation. The theory being that maybe you can combine to two smaller shards into one bigger shard. If that is possible it seems likely that you'd have to do it at the altar for the bigger shard.