Stone of Change - Eldritch Rituals Cookbook

[Ilandrya]

So far, order has determined which Essense/Focii/Gem appears as the descriptor of the combined shard - it has always inherited it from the first shard in the combination.

I'm willing to change my mind if an exception arises, but so far, first shard = what Essence/Focii/Gem is lised on supershard.

The order the two shards were put into the altar when combining them into a single shard was tested. It was previously suspected as you suggest that the first shard placed into the altar was the one that imparted the "dominate" focus. This was later dismissed when someone made a dual shard that ended up having the focus of the shard that was put in second as the "dominate" focus of the dual imbued shard.

What we have thus far seen to be true and yet to be disproven is that in the description of an apsect/balance, the focus listed first ends up being the "dominate focus".

[Zaodon]

Raidon posted here and here that the 2nd shard (Earth) was picked and not the first (Air). This supports the dominant focus theory.

I can attest, from witnessing two multi-shard tier 3 upgrades, and doing one myself, that you don't make mistakes when putting shards in the altar - you double/triple check each step. If Raidon said he put the shards in that order, then he put them in that order.

Garth

Meaning absolutely no disrespect to Raidon, as long as he is a human being and not a divine being, he could have made a mistake.
However, I will take your info into consideration.

To confirm: Does the item have +3 Cha skills (Air), or +3 Wis skills (Earth)?

Note, in D&D, there is no dominance. Not only that, but "specials" don't exist. I could see that rules for specials ignore the otherwise "standard" rule that first shard = dominant shard.

[AquilaNav]

Just a thought, if there is an elemental dominance as has been suggested with Neg at the bottom, this would mean that it would be impossible to get an third tier neg effect on an item using two different foci. This would be incredibly foolish of the dev's to do. I suspect that it is the simpler route of the first place shard determining the dominant effect granted by the third altar. (meaning that Raidon, as cool of a guy as he is, made a mistake.)

Just my 2 cents.

removed some unecessary stuff.

[Shima-ra]

We appreciate the last comment Eladrin, it would be tragic to waste 36 large for something that is bound to fail.

[Inkblack]

OK, I've tried to look at all the different theories, and I suspect that they can be boiled down to these:

The Dominant Focus Theory:
When combining two Imbued Shards, the dominant focus' shard will be applied to the third upgrade.
Implications: Final choices of third tier upgrades with bonus abilities is limited. The order of placing shards in the altar is not important.
Arguments for: The earth/air combination reported earlier.
Arguments against: The lack of a screenshot, and the fact that the order hasn't mattered anywhere else.

The Focus Order Theory:
When combining two Imbued Shards, the first shard placed in the altar becomes dominant.
Implications: Final choices of third tier upgrades with bonus abilities includes both focuses.
Arguments for: Order hasn't mattered, and there is no screenshot.
Arguments against: The earth/air combination reported earlier.

The Balance Theory:
The three balanced aspects (Balance of Land and Sky, Tempered, and Existential Stalemate) follow a different upgrade path than the other non-pure upgrades. A combination of the other two elements not used must be applied.
Implications: We can't apply what works for the other combinations to them.
Arguments for: The one combination didn't work, when other theories say it should have.
Arguments against:
If the Dominant Focus theory holds, then some combinations cannot be upgraded? (not sure this is a valid argument)
Existential Stalemate did follow the other rules, if only because it is one dimensional (pos-neg vs. air-earth and fire-water).

All we need is for someone to:
Prove/Disprove the Focus Order/Dominant Focus theories by reversing the order of Imbued Shards that were already tested -- just not the Earth-Air one. Don't forget to take screenshots!
Test the Balance Theory by upgrading a Tempered item with a BoLaS Shard, or a BoLaS item with a Tempered shard.

Did I miss any theories?

Ink

PS -- I see you guys are way ahead of me while I spent my time typing and reading...

[Zaodon]

We appreciate the last comment Eladrin, it would be tragic to waste 36 large for something that is bound to fail.

Actually all you'd lose is the power cell. When gems fail to combine, you don't lose them, your power cell just gets depleted.

[Zaodon]

This is a great thread.

In fact, I'd even say its a ...

[Ilandrya]

Hey Omni... have you tested this to see if the guards stack or not? Since they are all good, I suspect not, but I'm curious to know for certain.

[Boulderun]

Actually all you'd lose is the power cell. When gems fail to combine, you don't lose them, your power cell just gets depleted.

They'd probably be stuck with a bound, imbued supreme shard containing a recipe they have no other use for.

I think the question of "how do you make A go into B instead of B into A" deserves a straight answer.

[MysticTheurge]

The Dominant Focus Theory vs. The Focus Order Theory

I'm going to consider the Focus Order Theory disproven until someone can prove otherwise.

I find no reason to disregard someone's reported findings. So until then, I'm going to work under the assumption that the order you place Shards in the altar has no bearing on the final outcome.

I'm going to suggest we take this as a failed theory, save for those people who feel like corroborating the previous evidence against it.

If the Dominant Focus theory holds, then some combinations cannot be upgraded? (not sure this is a valid argument)

How is this not a valid agument:

1) Eladrin says all items at Tier II can be upgraded to provide a Tier III bonus.
2) Dominant Shard Theory states one of the two Foci in a combine shard is going to count and it's always going to be the same one.
3) Balance Theory states that you have to have a certain Tier I <--> Combined Shard Focus combination to get a Tier III bonus.

Since the Combined Shard Focus is fixed for all combinations, this means that you have to have a specific Tier I ability in order to get a Tier III bonus. This directly contradicts what Eladrin said, because it means that certain items (the ones with the wrong Tier I ability) cannot be upgraded.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Hey Omni... have you tested this to see if the guards stack or not? Since they are all good, I suspect not, but I'm curious to know for certain.

An EXCELLENT question. They probably don't stack. But, seeing as 50% for 1d4 + 1d4 + 1d8 are hardly overpowering, I kinda hope the do stack.

[Desteria]

now the question i'd really like to know is...
What happens if you have more then one cocordent oppisition, (Existential Stalemate II), item is equiped, do they both function ie fiering twice as often, or do they not stack.... saying this because could picture my sorc/cleric with a SP item, an HP item, an imunity item, and if it is the same on weapons 2 weapons, 5 x C.O. should mean one fieres every second hit on average temp hp every 4 sp every 4, that would make you a very durable nerly botomless SP killing/healign machine add in the torc and DQ bracers for even more insanity and fun times.
Devs dont seem to beabel to answere this one wich is kind of frustrating as for a DnD based game you should beable to look up stacking rules in the books anoying because to test it you need to make what if it fails is basicaly a waste item sicne all your bonus abilities will be identical, and 24 larges ingredants suks to waste on testing, I also fell the same way about the poor guy who failed the BoLaS upgrade

[Zaodon]

What happens if you have more then one Concordant Opposition item equipped. Do they both work? i.e. fire twice as often? Or do they not stack? If I had multiple items and (if it is the same on weapons) 2 weapons, upwards of 5 x C.O. That should mean one fires every second hit on average. Temp hp + SPs every 4th hit, that would make you a very durable nearly bottomless SP killing/healing machine. Add in the torc and DQ bracers for even more insanity and fun times.

[Ilandrya]

1) Eladrin says all items at Tier II can be upgraded to provide a Tier III bonus.
2) Dominant Shard Theory states one of the two Foci in a combine shard is going to count and it's always going to be the same one.
3) Balance Theory states that you have to have a certain Tier I <--> Combined Shard Focus combination to get a Tier III bonus.

Since the Combined Shard Focus is fixed for all combinations, this means that you have to have a specific Tier I ability in order to get a Tier III bonus. This directly contradicts what Eladrin said, because it means that certain items (the ones with the wrong Tier I ability) cannot be upgraded.

1, 2, 3 agreed.

Your last comment, not necessarily.

The combined shard "dominate focus" is "fixed" from what we have seen thus far, but that does not mean you have to have a specific tier I upgrade.

Example: If the dominate focus shard is place on one side of the item you are upgrading or the other in the altar, the "middle" focus could either become focus 1 or focus 2. If the middle focus is the one the "dominate" focus is paired with to create the aspects, any aspect "I" could be upgraded successfully into a "II" as Eladrin has stated.

We've tried altar order when combining the shards, but not when combining the combined shard with the item. Just a theory, but it would imply there are possiblities of all "I"'s becoming "II"'s, even with the dual shard having a "dominate focus".

[MysticTheurge]

What happens if you have more then one cocordent oppisition ... 2 weapons

I'm actually kind of skeptical that Tier Three Bonuses are the same on items and weapons.

We've already seen that Mineral is Transmuting/Keen/Slicing which just doesn't make sense on items. Nor do the Lightning and Ice ones (though they'd be easier to make into "guards").

It could be that Concordant Opposition on a weapon does something completely different.

(Meaning, we're going to have to wait til people start finding Essences of cleansing to know what the answer to your question is.)

[MysticTheurge]

1, 2, 3 true.

Your last comment, not necessarily.

The only way it's not true is if you do away with the "Every aspect has one and only one third tier bonus effect it can be upgraded to."

Which is possible, I suppose. But I'm not going to be the one to test it out. I'm having enough trouble gathering ingredients for my one item.

[oronisi]

Raidon posted here and here that the 2nd shard (Earth) was picked and not the first (Air). This supports the dominant focus theory.

I can attest, from witnessing two multi-shard tier 3 upgrades, and doing one myself, that you don't make mistakes when putting shards in the altar - you double/triple check each step. If Raidon said he put the shards in that order, then he put them in that order.

Garth

I'd have to disagree. The sheer number of wrongly crafted items proves that people do make mistakes. I know some people that have made at least 2 mistakes on the greensteel recipes alone. Not to mention the person that posted here on this thread that messed up the tier 1 upgrade and then proceeded to mess up the tier 2 upgrade. Using your logic, that person would have checked 2 or 3 times on the tier 3 upgrade since they already knew you could mess up....but that person still messed up.

[SneakThief]

Ok ... I have enough larges now for a 2nd level upgrade (on timer till Sunday though)... Would people rather see Ash II, or Test the Dominant Focus theory? I guess I could do both, but if the Dominant focus isnt true, I really dont want Deathblock ... though, there are wose things.

Ash II ... or ... Test Dominant Focus?

[Zaodon]

Ok ... I have enough larges now for a 2nd level upgrade (on timer till Sunday though)... Would people rather see Ash II, or Test the Dominant Focus theory? I guess I could do both, but if the Dominant focus isnt true, I really dont want Deathblock ... though, there are wose things.

Ash II ... or ... Test Dominant Focus?

My belief is that Ash II is a "given", since the discovery of Freezing Ice.

So, go for Test Dominant Focus.

[Tallyn]

Hmm, my vote would be for Ash II