Stone of Change - Eldritch Rituals Cookbook

[Shade]

I think it has more to do with the non-focus components of his shards.

That would suck. Because it very much limits the system. Highly doubt this.

He did a pretty popular and standard upgrade, spell points and some hitpoints, no wiz 6 cuz he probably has it on another item. I mean that is exactly the one most casters are gonna want, explananing it simply as nope casters can't get balance of land and sky II on what they want isn't a good answer.

[Wulf_Ratbane]

Guess that one is more complex, Because logically.. You can't add more balance to whats already balanced.. But you could add another 2 elements to the balance.

So try water + fire.

Balance of Land, Sky, Sea and Lava

That's my guess as well. Balance of Land and Sky is upgraded with Fire and Water.

[Shade]

crud... It would appear that your doing material on the stage one killed you getting the upgrade.

Really not understanding how you came to that conclusion. Willphase also mixed materia and ethereal. His upgrade worked.

And so far, every possible mix of 3 of the same elements, mixing gems and ethereal/material in every combo has also worked.

Does not make sense to vary from that for this.

[UtherSRG]

An item that possesses "Balance of Land and Sky" does possess an upgrade path, it is not bugged.

So.... does the combined 3rd shard have to be made from exactly what the first 2 shards were made from, or can there be some variation?

We already know that the foci of the 1st 2 shards matters (of course). We see now that essence matters to some degree.

Possibilities:
1. Yes (MON//EDP requires 3rd shard to be MON/EDP)

2. No, only the foci and essence matter (MON//EDP allows 3rd shard to be MEN/EEP)

3. No, as long as the total combination of gems/essences/foci are contained in the combined shard, it doesn't matter what the composition of the combining shards are. (MON//EDP allows 3rd shard to be MDP/EON)

[Mavnimo]

An item that possesses "Balance of Land and Sky" does possess an upgrade path, it is not bugged.

I response like this leads me to believe that there is only one path to upgrade an item using the diffent foci. for example


I wanted to go -OM/+EE/(+EE/-EE). which i would have thought to give the above with +3 to cha skills, greater elemental spell power and the Concordant Opposition. But if it doesn't then I would hate to use 24 large ingredients to give me something that can be done with 12. Another thought would be if i followed the same line and went -OM/+EE(+EE/-OM). would that result in the combination i wanted?

If this is the case I wouldn't mind a Scrapping machine installed to get back some of the ingredients used. It's hard enough trying to get all these ingredients using multiple characters. I feel bad for those with only 1 character trying to experiment with the crafting. They will get 1 shot at an item every 2 months give or take.

[Missing_Minds]

Really not understanding how you came to that conclusion. Willphase also mixed materia and ethereal. His upgrade worked.

And so far, every possible mix of 3 of the same elements, mixing gems and ethereal/material in every combo has also worked.

Does not make sense to vary from that for this.

Given how many posts have been done after Willphase posted, it isn't th easiest to find. The post I found had him using +EE and EE. No material, hence how I came to my conclusion. I truly hope that it is not the case and that what matters most is elemental combination and the mixing of the others.

Mixing of M and E with the same element, also results in obvious and useful but not so grand tier 3 upgrades as well. As was hinted at, the obvious (i.e. same element) wasn't going to be absolute best.

The guesswork to update Balance of Land and Sky using Fire and Water... by the same logic, if you did tempered first followed by Balance you should have the same result. By sum of components at least...
Chemicals going through a process can have different outcomes depending on order afterall so maybe temper will still use temper.

[Shade]

Given how many posts have been done after Willphase posted, it isn't th easiest to find. The post I found had him using +EE and EE. No material, hence how I came to my conclusion. I truly hope that it is not the case and that what matters most is elemental combination and the mixing of the others.

He did Positive Material Dominion first - which gave holy. Then Earth Material Domion again, for acid burst. Then the third upgrade he did Etereal Oposition Earth - which gave heighten awareness 4 and the bonus effects for mineral II.
So materieal/material/etereal. 1 different. Googles are materieal/etereal/etereal, 1 different. Same thing basicly.

The guesswork to update Balance of Land and Sky using Fire and Water... by the same logic, if you did tempered first followed by Balance you should have the same result. By sum of components at least...
Chemicals going through a process can have different outcomes depending on order afterall so maybe temper will still use temper.

Thats not the same logic at all.

My logic was clear.. Balance + more blance is still balance.. You can't further balance whats already balanced, which was earth and air. But add 2 more elements which also balance themself out and you have a more advanced balance.

Previous elemental combos are very important to determine later stages, So if balance + fire + water = Balance II... That does NOT mean Tempered + Earth + air = Balance II, that is wrong.

Tempered most likely is simple, Water+ Fire = tempered I
Tempered I + Water + Fire = Tempered II.. (Logic behind that one is if you Temper a sword thats great, its sharper, but temper it further until its perfect and its even sharper still.

[EspyLacopa]

He did Positive Material Dominion first - which gave holy. Then Earth Material Domion again, for acid burst. Then the third upgrade he did Etereal Oposition Earth - which gave heighten awareness 4 and the bonus effects for mineral II.
So materieal/material/etereal. 1 different. Googles are materieal/etereal/etereal, 1 different. Same thing basicly.


Thats not the same logic at all.

My logic was clear.. Balance + more blance is still balance.. You can't further balance whats already balanced, which was earth and air. But add 2 more elements which also balance themself out and you have a more advanced balance.

Previous elemental combos are very important to determine later stages, So if balance + fire + water = Balance II... That does NOT mean Tempered + Earth + air = Balance II, that is wrong.

Tempered most likely is simple, Water+ Fire = tempered I
Tempered I + Water + Fire = Tempered II.. (Logic behind that one is if you Temper a sword thats great, its sharper, but temper it further until its perfect and its even sharper still.

Then what's the point behind having a combined shard with Earth and Air?

[Missing_Minds]

Thats not the same logic at all.

My logic was clear.. Balance + more blance is still balance.. You can't further balance whats already balanced, which was earth and air. But add 2 more elements which also balance themself out and you have a more advanced balance.

Previous elemental combos are very important to determine later stages, So if balance + fire + water = Balance II... That does NOT mean Tempered + Earth + air = Balance II, that is wrong.

Tempered most likely is simple, Water+ Fire = tempered I
Tempered I + Water + Fire = Tempered II.. (Logic behind that one is if you Temper a sword thats great, its sharper, but temper it further until its perfect and its even sharper still.

Ok, I completely forgot about the mineral II that was posted. Thank you for that correction.

As for the logic..emm... yes it is.

(Air+Earth) + (Water+Fire) = (Water+Fire) + (Air+Earth)

Mathematically, it is the same. However, as I stated, chemically it could be different hence why a temper (first) may not necessarily be able to use Balance (second) to get a result of Balance II, even if Balance (first) Temper (two) may.

I wasn't intending that as a poke on how to get to Temper II, just Balance II.

[Shade]

I
I wanted to go -OM/+EE/(+EE/-EE). which i would have thought to give the above with +3 to cha skills, greater elemental spell power and the Concordant Opposition. But if it doesn't then I would hate to use 24 large ingredients to give me something that can be done with 12. Another thought would be if i followed the same line and went -OM/+EE(+EE/-OM). would that result in the combination i wanted?

I think your upgrade will work fine.

On the previous example - his positive focus overrided his negative, so he got +3 cha skills. You would likely get the same. The order of entering the items has never mattered on any crafting at all. Tho you could determine this anyways before you pull the final switch and do it.. Examine your combined shard, it will say the dominate focus.. Tho not much choice besides starting over to use it later on a difference item if its not ideal.

I don't think the gem determines the dominant focus, tho it might. Nor the material.. Altho your material combos are the same as the previous example so it should be fine. (googles were material/ethereal/ethereal same as your plan) Only difference is your gems.

[Missing_Minds]

Then what's the point behind having a combined shard with Earth and Air?

more combinations, if not now, then in the future? man.. that is an ugly throught for current experimentation.

[Gol]

To summarize and analyze:

UPGRADED FULLY:

1 Positive Dominion Material
2 Earth Dominion Material
3 Earth Opposition Ethereal + Positive Opposition Ethereal = Earth Opposition Ethereal / Mineral

1 negative escalation ethereal
2 positive escalation ethereal
3 positive escalation ethereal + negative escalation ethereal = positive escalation ethereal / Existential Stalemate


DID NOT UPGRADE FULLY:

1 earth material escalation
2 air ethereal escalation
3 air ethereal escalation + earth ethereal escalation = earth ethereal escalation / Land And Sky

[Shade]

Ok, I completely forgot about the mineral II that was posted. Thank you for that correction.

As for the logic..emm... yes it is.

(Air+Earth) + (Water+Fire) = (Water+Fire) + (Air+Earth)

Mathematically, it is the same. However, as I stated, chemically it could be different hence why a temper (first) may not necessarily be able to use Balance (second) to get a result of Balance II, even if Balance (first) Temper (two) may.

I wasn't intending that as a poke on how to get to Temper II, just Balance II.

Math doesn't apply here. 4 elements might be one thing, but the crafting system doesn't care about your first 2 elements when you do a third upgrade. It only cares about what affinity and what aspect it has, and it will have a different (and incorrect) one if you do it backwards. Order might not matter in math, but it does here.

If an item has tempered on it, you can only get tempered II. You cannot get balance of land and sky II.
If an item has balance of land and sky on it, you can only get balance of land and sky II.

This is my guess based on Eladrins posting, but seems the simplest and most logical course.

Doing it your way might sound mathimatically sound, but programming wise or logic wise I don't see how it would work.

[smithers]

Then what's the point behind having a combined shard with Earth and Air?

Yes, the idea that land/sky would be upgraded with fire/water is loony.

Although there are three tiers, I believe there needs to be balancing between what you have at 2nd and the two added in the third.

The kopesh was balanced in this way: two shots of material and two shots of ethereal (at third tier). Two shots of dominion and two shots of escalation.

I'm surprised at this extra complexity, and we can't be sure how this is working until more data comes in. However, if you are planning a 12-ingredient (special) upgrade I'd recommend trying to balance these out at both the 2nd and third tiers (possible that you could have mixes at both levels that balance out intotal, but this seems risky too...)

All speculation of course; we need more data.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

[EDIT: I'm wrong about Balance of Earth and Sky, but leaving this up so Kargon can laugh at me. Sorry Eladrin for falsely accusing you of contradicting yourself!]

I am confused as to why people are continually trying to overcomplicate matters!!!

Bear in mind this is based on my own ideas/thoughts so feel free to disagree with me.

Before I proceed let me clarify my nomenclature (and I will bold these terms just to avoid any confusion)

'effect' refers to the effect (e.g. 'Acid' for EDM on a weapon at tier 1, +4 AC at tier 3 for adding FOE) that you get for adding an imbued shard at each tier.
'bonus effect' refers to the extra bonus effect you get for combining elements at tier 2 and tier 3. You always get a bonus effect at tier 2 and these depend on which para, quasi or 'special' (special elemental combinations have been invented by DDO) elemental combination you chose. You only get a bonus effect from tier 3 if you imbue the same para, quasi or 'special' elemental combination at tier 3. If you have already gone fire/fire then it's easy - just add 'fire'. If you have gone fire/earth then you need to add 'magma' by combining a fire imbued shard and an earth imbued shard. Pick any gem/essence you want - this will determine the tier 3 effect, but in the case of combining shards you should make sure the gems/essences are the same, and also pick your effect by putting that shard leftmost in the altar.

There is no evidence at all that gems or essences affect the bonus effects at tier 2 and tier 3 - all they do is change the effect at each tier.

Eladrin has said that there are tier III upgrade paths for all tier 2 quasi/para/special elemental combinations - except, it would appear, Air/Earth, I'm very disappointed with that one, especially as Eladrin previously said all tier II combinations had bonus effects at tier 3. It's just a matter of finding them all. Pick your gems and essences any way you like depending on the effect you want to get at tier 3 - but make sure your gem/essence is the same for the two shards you combine at tier 3 or I don't think the shards will even combine.

The only reason why the Balance of Land and Sky upgrade didn't reveal a bonus effect at tier 3 was because there simply isn't one coded. It wasn't due to any mistake by the person doing it, or any incorrect gems/essences mix. My respect and commiserations to the dude who did it - cos they wasted 24 ingredients - I feel for you. It would be nice if Eladrin could confirm whether there are any dead end upgrades so we don't waste 24 more ingredients - I know of people doing Dust, Smoke, Vacuum and Magma within the next few days - will those all give Bonus Effects at tier III?

All this talk of gems/essences and what you picked at Tier 1 and 2 and other stuff like that is just over complicating matters. The only 'complication' is that the shard order in Devastation appears to matter for the tier 3 effect.

Regards,

Garth

[Gol]

All speculation of course; we need more data.

I summarized current data a few posts up.

[MysticTheurge]

Eladrin has said that there are tier III upgrade paths for all tier 2 quasi/para/special elemental combinations - except, it would appear, Air/Earth, I'm very disappointed with that one, especially as Eladrin previously said all tier II combinations had bonus effects at tier 3.

Um, Eladrin said that there is an upgrade path for "Balance of Land and Sky."

An item that possesses "Balance of Land and Sky" does possess an upgrade path, it is not bugged.

Presumably, we just haven't figured out what it is yet.

It does make me a bit more curious to see if +/-/A|E or A/E/+|- is possible.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Um, Eladrin said that there is an upgrade path for "Balance of Land and Sky."
Presumably, we just haven't figured out what it is yet.

Good point. I misread Eladrin. Silly Garth. ermm umm. should I edit my post or continue to look foolish. Bah I don't mind being the forum fool for the day, gives Kargon someone to laugh at

I wonder what the upgrade path is... I continue to guess whatever it is - it's gem/essence independent (but then I've been wrong already today so what's new, eh?)

Garth

[Raidon]

and also pick your effect by putting that shard leftmost in the altar.

.....

It would be nice if Eladrin could confirm whether there are any dead end upgrades so we don't waste 24 more ingredients -

Garth

I too believed that the leftmost shard determined the tier 3 effect , however when combining the two shards the rightmost one was chosen in my case for the tier 3 effect. (now believes in the dominant element theory)

Eladrin has confirmed in his previous post that there is a successful upgrade from land/sky to land sky II. I am totally confused because the combined shard had "balance of land/sky" on it. There is no reason i can see why this didn't upgrade the item to land/sky II.

Regarding the rest of your post Garth , i agree entirely.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

I too believed that the leftmost shard determined the tier 3 effect , however when combining the two shards the rightmost one was chosen in my case for the tier 3 effect. (now believes in the dominant element theory)

Yeah I'm loathed to accept it, because I don't like it - but the dominant element theory does have merit. It would appear that pos trumps both neg and earth, with earth also trumping air. I'm going to look at the ingredient lists for each focus and work out if there is a pattern there.

Garth (still feeling guilty about accusing Eladrin of contradicting himself)