STR based Spellsword: a rebuild

[Aspenor]

Please critique, this character is specced to at end-game use GTWF with rapiers and shortswords. When I say end-game, I mean at level 20. Enjoy.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.75
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Ill 
Level 14 Lawful Good Drow Male
(4 Paladin \ 2 Rogue \ 8 Sorcerer) 
Hit Points: 149
Spell Points: 673 
BAB: 9\9\14
Fortitude: 11
Reflex: 15
Will: 10

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Stats          Modified Stats
Abilities        (Level 1)             (Level 14)
Strength             16                    20
Dexterity            17                    20
Constitution         12                    13
Intelligence         10                    10
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma             14                    17

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 1
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 1
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 1
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 1

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 14)
Balance               8                     9
Bluff                 2                     3
Concentration         3                     4
Diplomacy             2                     3
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle                5                     6
Heal                 -1                    -1
Hide                  4                     5
Intimidate            2                     3
Jump                  3                     5
Listen                3                     5
Move Silently         4                     5
Open Lock             8                    17
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                0                     0
Search                0                     2
Spot                  3                     5
Swim                  7                     9
Tumble                5                     6
Use Magic Device      6                    20

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Haggle (+3)
Skill: Listen (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Swim (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting

Level 2 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)

Level 3 (Paladin)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell

Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Open Lock (+1)

Level 5 (Paladin)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)

Level 6 (Paladin)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness

Level 7 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)

Level 8 (Sorcerer)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Open Lock (+1)

Level 9 (Rogue)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+8)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting

Level 10 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 11 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 12 (Sorcerer)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons

Level 13 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Level 14 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack I
Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack II
Enhancement: Drow Melee Damage I
Enhancement: Drow Melee Damage II
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Fluidity I
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Fluidity II
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Fluidity III
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Elven Enchantment Resistance I
Enhancement: Elven Enchantment Resistance II
Enhancement: Follower of Vulkoor
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Concentration I
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Force Manipulation I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Force Manipulation II
Enhancement: Sorcerer Force Manipulation III
Enhancement: Sorcerer Energy of the Dragonblooded I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Energy of the Dragonblooded II
Enhancement: Sorcerer Charisma I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Charisma II
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II

[Aspenor]

I am trying to figure out if I can squeeze the BAB to get this character into the STWF feat. I don't think I can. Can anybody help me out?

If not I'm going to tweak the dex down a little bit.

[Aspenor]

Or would this be better? I do not plan on taking more paladin levels to boost BAB, so I guess for now I am stuck without GTWF at level 15, and it doesn't look like I can squeeze in STWF at level 20

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.75
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Ill 
Level 14 Lawful Good Drow Male
(4 Paladin \ 2 Rogue \ 8 Sorcerer) 
Hit Points: 149
Spell Points: 673 
BAB: 9\9\14
Fortitude: 11
Reflex: 14
Will: 10

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Stats          Modified Stats
Abilities        (Level 1)             (Level 14)
Strength             17                    21
Dexterity            15                    18
Constitution         12                    12
Intelligence         10                    10
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma             14                    17

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 1
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 1
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 1

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 14)
Balance               7                     8
Bluff                 2                     3
Concentration         3                     4
Diplomacy             2                     3
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle                5                     6
Heal                 -1                    -1
Hide                  3                     4
Intimidate            2                     3
Jump                  4                     5
Listen                3                     5
Move Silently         3                     4
Open Lock             7                    16
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                0                     0
Search                0                     2
Spot                  3                     5
Swim                  8                     9
Tumble                4                     5
Use Magic Device      6                    20

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting

Level 2 (Sorcerer)

Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell

Level 4 (Paladin)

Level 5 (Paladin)

Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness

Level 7 (Sorcerer)

Level 8 (Sorcerer)

Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting

Level 10 (Sorcerer)

Level 11 (Sorcerer)

Level 12 (Sorcerer)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons

Level 13 (Sorcerer)

Level 14 (Sorcerer)
Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack I
Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack II
Enhancement: Drow Melee Damage I
Enhancement: Drow Melee Damage II
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Fluidity I
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Fluidity II
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Fluidity III
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Elven Enchantment Resistance I
Enhancement: Elven Enchantment Resistance II
Enhancement: Follower of Vulkoor
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Concentration I
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Force Manipulation I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Force Manipulation II
Enhancement: Sorcerer Force Manipulation III
Enhancement: Sorcerer Energy of the Dragonblooded I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Energy of the Dragonblooded II
Enhancement: Sorcerer Charisma I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Charisma II
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II

[EinarMal]

I've spent a lot of time thinking about arcane TWF builds, they are my favorite but we are of course missing prestige classes that help with the BAB.

I think you should ditch the pally levels. The saves are hurting the spell part of your spellsword. I would consider instead going Sorc 16/Rogue 3/Fighter 1. That still allows for GTWF by taking the fighter level at 20, and you are a better caster overall.

The other thing is I think you should stick with the dex based build and pump charisma. Go for wounding/puncturing, and the key spell is a heightened glitterdust. I think you would do equal damage to the strength build above because of the constant sneak attacks. With 3 rogue levels that is 10.5(Sneak) +2(Enh.) +5(Item)=17.5 damage per swing. Add in 20 strength (10 Base) and you would outdamage your build above because your glitterdust DC should be close to 30.

1-Weapon Finesse
3-TWF
6-Extend
9-ITWF
12-IC Piercing
15-Heighten
18-Force of Personality
20-(FB) GTWF

Your saves should still be good enough. I couldn't fit in toughness which would make you a litte more squishy but blind mobs can't really hit as well

[EinarMal]

I am trying to figure out if I can squeeze the BAB to get this character into the STWF feat. I don't think I can. Can anybody help me out?

If not I'm going to tweak the dex down a little bit.

Yeah this is not really doable without very few caster levels. Essentially you can only lose 5 BAB total.

2 Rogue = -1 BAB
8 Sorc= -4 BAB
10 Pally = -0 BAB

You still couldn't take it at level 18 with a 10 Pally/2 Rogue/6 Sorc BAB = 14

[Aspenor]

The other thing is I think you should stick with the dex based build and pump charisma.

I actually currently have this exact build, dex-based. He has 28 dex (could be increased to 30 with a +2 dex tome and +6 item) and 22 strength.

The paladin levels add significantly to my saves, allow for the twf feats at earlier levels due to the BAB, and boost hit points due to higher HD and access to the paladin toughness enhancements in combination with the toughness feat I took.

I was just trying to work out a strength based version of this. Wounding of puncturing items are virtually impossible to get your hands on on my server as well, especially rapiers. I'm aware that wounding of puncturing would be my best bet, though. I don't think I would gain all that much casting power from extra sorcerer levels, either. Take into account the low charisma and thus low DC's, I prefer to stick with buffs and no-save spells.

[Aspenor]

Yeah this is not really doable without very few caster levels. Essentially you can only lose 5 BAB total.

2 Rogue = -1 BAB
8 Sorc= -4 BAB
10 Pally = -0 BAB

You still couldn't take it at level 18 with a 10 Pally/2 Rogue/6 Sorc BAB = 14

Thanks, Einar. I didn't think it was going to fit. No worries. If I do eventually reroll into the strength-based version I will use the second build.

Since GTWF won't be available till level 18 I was thinking I would take power attack at level 15. My dex-based version of this character has plenty to-hit with rapiers and shortswords, around +30 on the first swing.

[EinarMal]

I actually currently have this exact build, dex-based. He has 28 dex (could be increased to 30 with a +2 dex tome and +6 item) and 22 strength.

The paladin levels add significantly to my saves, allow for the twf feats at earlier levels due to the BAB, and boost hit points due to higher HD and access to the paladin toughness enhancements in combination with the toughness feat I took.

I was just trying to work out a strength based version of this. Wounding of puncturing items are virtually impossible to get your hands on on my server as well, especially rapiers. I'm aware that wounding of puncturing would be my best bet, though. I don't think I would gain all that much casting power from extra sorcerer levels, either. Take into account the low charisma and thus low DC's, I prefer to stick with buffs and no-save spells.

Yeah I've seen the other build posted, what I was saying is that you don't have to have low charisma. With 18 dex and 18 charisma, 12 Con at creation all level ups into charisma. You could have a level 16 sorc that would be a good caster, and also be a good TWF with effects weapons. Actually I think a wizard works better than a sorc that is what my build is. The extra meta feats really help once you skip the pally save thing. I still have saves all 20+ with a 27 reflex save without them, good enough in my book.

If you are interested I can PM you the build for an alternate take for a Wiz/Rogue/Fighter build.

[Aspenor]

Yeah I've seen the other build posted, what I was saying is that you don't have to have low charisma. With 18 dex and 18 charisma, 12 Con at creation all level ups into charisma. You could have a level 16 sorc that would be a good caster, and also be a good TWF with effects weapons. Actually I think a wizard works better than a sorc that is what my build is. The extra meta feats really help once you skip the pally save thing. I still have saves all 20+ with a 27 reflex save without them, good enough in my book.

If you are interested I can PM you the build for an alternate take for a Wiz/Rogue/Fighter build.

Not to sound snitty but this is kindof a concept build, I don't plan on adjusting a whole lot. I've looked at wizard, if I were to make a melee wizard it would probably follow the pure wizard warforged build I posted today in the wizard forums. I might tweak that one a little bit to increase his stopping power with enchantments and transmutations for free critical hits!

[Aspenor]

I can definitely see wizard/rogue/fighter being highly viable. I just really like having the charisma for UMD, and the paly levels are flavor, and the sorc/paly just blends so well.

Having saves all approaching 30 instead of 20 is pretty dang nice too

[EinarMal]

I can definitely see wizard/rogue/fighter being highly viable. I just really like having the charisma for UMD, and the paly levels are flavor, and the sorc/paly just blends so well.

Having saves all approaching 30 instead of 20 is pretty dang nice too

Yeah it's nice, its a shame you can't do something like Sorc6/Rogue 2/Pally 2/Eldritch Knight 10

You would still get your saves, cast like a 15 level caster, and have 16 BAB! You would also get 10 hp per EK level....

[Aspenor]

Yeah it's nice, its a shame you can't do something like Sorc6/Rogue 2/Pally 2/Eldritch Knight 10

You would still get your saves, cast like a 15 level caster, and have 16 BAB! You would also get 10 hp per EK level....

OMG i know...I'd kill for eldritch knight PrC, that's basically what this guy was designed to be, an EK without the levels since they dont have them yet....I'd kill for that BAB and HP though. Sheesh.

[EinarMal]

OMG i know...I'd kill for eldritch knight PrC, that's basically what this guy was designed to be, an EK without the levels since they dont have them yet....I'd kill for that BAB and HP though. Sheesh.

Yeah this type of build with Eldritch Knight is my favorite, although I am more of a wizard type, I like having the extra feats and spells to play with. I've been playing Bards because that is as close as you can get (except for any damaging spells ).

The problem with TWF at the cap now with an arcane is without ITWF and IC Piercing it just isn't very good. Plus you have to wait so freaking long for GTWF.

[Aspenor]

Yeah this type of build with Eldritch Knight is my favorite, although I am more of a wizard type, I like having the extra feats and spells to play with. I've been playing Bards because that is as close as you can get (except for any damaging spells ).

The problem with TWF at the cap now with an arcane is without ITWF and IC Piercing it just isn't very good. Plus you have to wait so freaking long for GTWF.

Yeah the character that I have was originally designed back in the level cap 12 days, and was 8/2/2 and therefore: NO IC: PIERCING cuz I didn't take the 2 extra pally levels till 13 and 14 He also wasn't TWF back in those days....

Oh well though it's not necessarily build-breaking....the nice thing that I like about the strength based build is not using a feat for weapon finesse.