Str based dorf RGR

[Disavowed]

I see this all the time and it confuses me. A str based Dorf rgr with 30 Str at level 14. Thier favorite weapon choice is dual Dorf axes. I'm not sure why. You lose 50% str damage in you off hand. Why no use a greataxe. I suggest trying this out. I did and found there to be way more damage with a greataxe. I used dual flame burst dorf axes then a flame burst greataxe. With P/A on my combined numbers on the GA were 120 (lowest) and 143 (highest) on crits. The dorf axes only critted 35-55. I'd like to see waht other people find out when they try this. I know it looks cool but I'm not sure it's as productive. Most str based rgrs have some class mix in them so they aren't getting the extra swing from 2wf and even if so the speed of the swing on the greataxe coupled with the extra damage seems to more than make up for it.

[MrCow]

Two-weapon fighting will often be a better choice if you rely on weapon effects. Elemental weapon damage, seeker effects, bard song, wounding, sneak attack (backstabbing), vertigo, bodyfeeder, yada yada... if you use two weapons with effects like this vs. a two-handed weapon that is the same then often the two weapons will win out. If you are using weapons that are of low caliber effects or no extra effects then you are often better going with a two-handed weapon. DR is another thing that will favor the Two-handed weapon vs. the two-weapon fighting.

The places where two-weapon fighting shine over two-handed weapon fighting are simply situational.

[Disavowed]

Don't get me wrong there are times when I use 2 weps ie. when using wounders or a curspewer/ paralyzer etc.. But as you said it's situational and I feel there's far more times to use a 2 hander than 2 weps when it come to dishing out more damage. Especially when as you said there is DR involved.

[Soul-Shaker]

The idea behind twf is not that you lose .5 str but you gain 2 strikes to equal 1.5 str with 2 strikes 1main/.5 offhand. So you shouldnt loose any dps(except on first swing since its 1 attack unless you do a moving attack for double attack). The main difference is that x1.5 does more dmg on a dr mob just because its 1 stronger attack - dr vs a norm and weaker attack -2xdr.

twf gains double benefits from buffs like from recitation, songs, FE. example FE +10 dmg is like 1xstr +10 / .5xstr +10 while a thf build only gets 1.5 +10
TWF excels when its on Crit immune mobs.
twf can get more dps from static weapon effects. x2 +1 holy of grtr bane = 7 x 5d6 extra damage combat round vs thf 4 x 5d6 round.

I would say if you can bypass dr on a favorite enemy, use two weapons to take best use of FE.
If your fighting a mob that you cant bypass a mob with like 10+ dr swap to THF.
If your using better effect weapons like grtr banes, then your better off using 2 greater banes with TWF.
Also with mod6 slightly slow THF style and Tempest attack speed boost, TWF rounds seem to be a bit faster.

[Benjai]

One arguement against THF to me is its just not very ranger friendly, theres no free ranger feats, and other classes, mainly barbarians would be much better suited to THF.

[Blind_Skwerl]

Hehe my 2-hander character is a bard.

Back to the subject:

As was said, both are good situationally. Since most of the time I am using elemental/greater bane axes or stat damage/effect weapons, dual wielding is more often what I do. If I do get a good 2-hander, I wouldn't shy away from using it though. (Come to me, oh mighty +3 ghost touched greataxe of disruption!)

[Fallout]

The dorf axes only critted 35-55. I'd like to see waht other people find out when they try this. .

My twf dorf axe dorf fighter crits 100+ dam. Do you have PA on when dual wielding the dorf axes? TWF with dorf axes is good, now with that oversize feat coming out, plus it just looks cool. But I retire him since have a twf barb now that uses deathnips.

[Gol]

The dorf axes only critted 35-55.

I don't know what build you were using/testing as a reference point, but I frequently see low-mid 30s on non-crits against FEs. Fully madstoned, etc, I'll reach 140s on crits with a Dwarven.

[EspyLacopa]

I see this all the time and it confuses me. A str based Dorf rgr with 30 Str at level 14. Thier favorite weapon choice is dual Dorf axes. I'm not sure why. You lose 50% str damage in you off hand. Why no use a greataxe. I suggest trying this out. I did and found there to be way more damage with a greataxe. I used dual flame burst dorf axes then a flame burst greataxe. With P/A on my combined numbers on the GA were 120 (lowest) and 143 (highest) on crits. The dorf axes only critted 35-55. I'd like to see waht other people find out when they try this. I know it looks cool but I'm not sure it's as productive. Most str based rgrs have some class mix in them so they aren't getting the extra swing from 2wf and even if so the speed of the swing on the greataxe coupled with the extra damage seems to more than make up for it.

Assuming all else equal:

Greataxe: 1d12 + Str * 1.5
Dual Wield Dwarven Waraxes: 1d10 + Str, 1d10 + Str * .5 for total of 2d10 + Str * 1.5, Attack bonus is -4 compared to Greataxe.

So. . .Average damage time. Note that the Strength bonus is the same.

1d12: 6.5 average
2d10: 11 average

It's like being forced to have a -4 Power Attack. -4 Attack for +4.5 Damage. It's a reasonable tradeoff.

Damage Reduction: Greataxe Wins
Special Weapon Effects: Dual Axes Win.

Take your pick. On a ranger, it doesn't even cost more feats. With Mod6 and Oversized TWF(Cost of one feat), that'll make it -2 Attack for +4.5 damage, which is essentially like an always on Power Attack with a Twohanded Weapon.

[Westerner]

Take your pick. On a ranger, it doesn't even cost more feats. With Mod6 and Oversized TWF(Cost of one feat), that'll make it -2 Attack for +4.5 damage, which is essentially like an always on Power Attack with a Twohanded Weapon.

Nice summary.

As an additional option, D-axe/H-axe combination could also be chosen for -2 attack and +2.5 damage without a feat investment.

[kensihin_Himura]

Certain people need to learn how to spell words right. It's not dorf, it's dwarf.

[Disavowed]

I don't doubt your numbers at all. It's the application of the numbers I disagree with. You're only basing that on one enemy.

What about splash damage? Lets face it the majority of the time we have anywhere from 2-5 enemies around us as we melee. A 2 wep style only hits one of those enemies. My two hander hits all mobs within range for 10-20 points of splash damage each. This is still damage out put per swing or per second (whatever you prefer to consider DPS to be) and it has to be added in. It just can't be discounted. Not for an apples to apples true life comparison.

I'm willing to bet that if there was a way to calculate total hit point damage at the end of a quest. Instead of monsters killed at the end of a quest. The 2 hander will have accounted for far more hit points taken off of the total enemies than the 2 wep person. This is all that truly matters is total damage output, not how many kills you get, but how many hit points you delivered.

Thanks for your input and further rebuttle or input is wanted.

[jmonty]

generally it is more important to hit one end boss than a few trash mobs on the way though.

[Disavowed]

That end Boss will most likely have DR which goes right back to the point that a 2 hander is better for DR and more parties tend to wipe along the way than at the end boss so I'd say thy're more than just scrub mobs.

[Soul-Shaker]

For me its rare to see more then 3 mobs close enough together unless I'm herding them all up or its undead type quest. As for glancing blow dmg, It only really pays off if your dpsing many targets and without the feats its only like 1 of every 4 swings that get the glance(note twf is free for rgrs). But TWF with greater buffs is almost like doubling a buffs(not str) compared to THF just because of 2 hands. I dont know much about how they calc THF glancing dmg and I belive untrained its only 1 glance with axe/sword per combat round, correct me if im wrong here. If your doing 25 average extra per swing(str factored in for this) on 5 mobs for 1 glance swings in 1 combat round (4 swings) with songs, fav enemy, pa (9song/10FE, 10pa), +2 racial weapon dmg and a +1 grtr bane weapon. And then with the same buffs, 4 extra offhand (possible with moving on first swing), and 2 +1 grtr banes. Str is negated because 1.5 = 1 + .5 twf in this situation and if you really want to argue, then crit chance could be factored in to which favors twf.

+1 grtr bane Gaxe 4 swings main target
(29bufss + 10.5(3d6) + 6.5 (1d12) +2weapon dmg +5weapon)x4 = 176
+ 25(glance) x1(1 glancing blow untrained) x num of targets
so #targets/extra dmg: 1/25, 2/50, 3/75, 4/100, 5/125
so 5 targets 337 dmg not counting str or crits

two +1 grtr bane DAs 4 swing (8 attack) no crit
(24buffs + 10.5(3d6) + 5.5(1d10) + 2 wepaon dmg + 5weapon)x8 = 376

They are about the same, but this is already without crit chances which will favor TWF and 5 glancing targets. A TWF might not be hitting as many, but they are finishing off a target faster and just moving on to the next one much faster then a THF finishing off 1 and lowering the rest slowly. I know this is more ideal buff wise but thats just to help show how buffs (such as FE) favor twf style.

Results of just FE, racial weapon dmg, +5 grtr banes and 20 ave glance
GA
main: 176 + 100(5 target) = 276

TWF DA = 304

DPS numbers is not about kill count at all, its about dmg you can put out on average within the same time frame when there is any constant targets in range. Yes you can hit more targets but without investing in the feats, you wont make up for the already possible dps you can put out on a rgr with twf and you might as well have been a Barb or FTR which can make use of the STR buffs, larger crit range, or weapon specs and feats. Also if you kill a mob with 1 THF that was weak enough to kill with a TWF offhand, then a swing is waste as a TWF extra swing can carry over and hit the next target standing right next to dying target.

[Soul-Shaker]

That end Boss will most likely have DR which goes right back to the point that a 2 hander is better for DR and more parties tend to wipe along the way than at the end boss so I'd say thy're more than just scrub mobs.

Remember DR type matters to though. If the mob has dr and you cant bypass then its 2hander ftw. If you can bypass it with proper weapon type without losing effects (adamantine, silver, holy, CI holy) then TWF wins again. This is why it is harder to maintain higher dps because it requires 2x great weapon. Example odds of finding two +2 anarch byeshk DS of grtr abberation bane vs being able to just find 1 a +2 anarch byeshk GA of grtr abberation bane for Twilight Forge end Mindflayer. Reaver has a DR/- type I belive so this is where THF pulls ahead. titan and abbot are crit immune and dr type can be bypassed. most boss type mobs have dr/adamantine. ( Note there is a recipe for mod6 to add adamantine to weapons from what I been reading )

[Cowdenicus]

You know, I am building up my barbarian right now (he is level 7.4 now) and I cannot imagine how a great axe is going to outkill the 2 wounding of puncturing picks he has at level 14. He will have 10 attacks a round at 15, and will crit on a 17 or better.

For those that stat damage wont work on, again I have a hard time imagining something beating him out dps wise when he will be using 2 bursting picks of maiming (especially since he has a bloodstone as of today.)

assuming only a 44 strength (which is low but ok whatever)

1d6 (pick)
+ 17 str
+ 8 pa
+ 1d6 (element)

is 2d6 +25 (or 32 on a normal swing)

On a Crit though.....

4d6 (pick)
+17 str (68)
+8 pa (32)
+ 3d10 (element)
+ 3d6 (maiming)
+ 24 for seeker.

for worst case scenario of 124 +7d6 +3d10 damage and while you get 5 swings a round, I get 10 in the same time.

[Soul-Shaker]

Cowdenicus, hes coming from the perspective of his str dwarf ranger using a GA without THF(glance dmg increase and glance amount increase) feats vs TWF which rgrs already get for free. but from a TWF barb perspective, not going to see many out DPS dual Deathnips with that x18 crit factor (15-20 x4). GA only silly x8 crit factor.

[Disavowed]

And yes I do agree there is no way a rgr will out produce a barb. As was stated it's about a Str rgr going w/ a 2 hander as opposed to going TWF. I'm buying into the DR thing assuming you have a set of every type of weapons and enough slots to switch between mobs ie. A cry for help cats that need one type of DR rhaaks needing another and elves and humans with yet another. Or in DTOV the different undead mobs w/ dr or needing ghost touch, marautes, etc.

As far as the above statement about just going fighter for the str bonuses. At level fourteen and a 30 str 2 Ftr 1 Pally 11 RGR I have the same BAB and almost the same str bonuses as my LVL 14 ftr w/ 32 str (one less to hit I think). I still had enough feats allowing for 2hf feat. I prefer this over going straight ftr as was suggested because I can get enough dex (26 I think I'm at work) from enhancements to fill out mith BP w/ dorf armor mastery 3 then self bark. Yields much better AC, keeps evasion, and I can buff and heal. I feel it offers more than my 14 ftr as it's more well rounded.

I'm still not sure if I'm buying into the total amount of damage dealt over a quest goes to the 2 wep ftr. I play this toon as a main tank 350 hp 42 AC and I always try to get as many mobs to pile on me at once as possible. I'm usually the first or second tank seen by the mobs. When this happens most clerics will drop a greater command on the mobs (usually 3-6 mobs). Splash damage definately comes into play then. Using your thought process almost any fighter build would have enough extra feats to go twf yet most chose to go sword and board or 2hander. Why wouldn't they go twf?

Again thanks for the input. I'm not trying to offend or be an ass just trying to play devils advocate while gathering others input. So again any other input is wanted and welcomed.

[jmonty]

i don't care what you say, a twf with enough hp has more to offer a party than a barbarian.