Fix Concentration

[MysticTheurge]

You are allowed to take points in concentration when you level although most people don't bother. Good thing he's level 5 so he can still increase his concentration as he levels, if he was level 14 telling him to put points in concentration wouldn't be very helpful. With a wizard's intelligence you get a lot of skill points - you could easily have a concentration above 30 at level 5 if you put even 1/3 of your skill points into it.

No you can't.

You ranks in a skill max out at your level + 3.

So the most you can have is 8 ranks. Plus, let's be generous, 2 for constitution on a (non-dwarf) wizard and +5 for an item, you're really looking at pretty much 15 as being a reasonable maximum at level 5. You could squeeze a few more points (up to 4) out of constitution by being a dwarf and really maxing out Con... but you are a wizard after all.

[Mad_Bombardier]

DDO does use the proper Concentration check roll, and we do have ready access to +Concentration and +CON items to help with our skill. Unfortunately, DDO monster damage is significantly higher than our skill can mitigate.

My 14 Wiz has 17 ranks, 22 CON (+6), +2 Luck, +13 skill item, +4 GrHero = 42 Concentration.

The check is 1d20 + 42 ≥ 10 + Spell level + damage (pre-DR). If I take more than 46 pts of damage while casting a L7 spell, it's an automatic failure. And even with 100% fortification/no crits, there are quite a few mobs that can deal more than 46 pts of damage.

I could potentially squeeze out a few more points by spending feats and AP (2 feats + 10 AP = +11 Concentration). But, that would seriously cut into my available feats and AP. Quicken is fun, but should not be the only answer.

Something needs to be done to rework the system. Maybe take away the 10+ and spell level from the calculation would be enough; maybe not at higher level. I don't know. But, Devs need to look at it.

[MysticTheurge]

Quicken is fun, but should not be the only answer.

Well....

Aggro management is another answer. But people in DDO don't seem to like to do that very much.

[Hafeal]

Well....

Aggro management is another answer. But people in DDO don't seem to like to do that very much.

I would agree with you but as with so many things, in the fast paced combat system (which attracts many to DDO), aggro management it is half art and half skill. Those truly good at it are the power-gamers and the rare casual player who "gets it." But for many, especially casual players, it is more like "Well I did this quest last time and it worked but this time I am not handling it right."

It is hard to learn consistency that aggro management needs, in my opinion. This would be less of an issue if creature HD were not as inflated but we then get into the game balance discussion of many another thread.

I don't think there is an easy solution. I will say, for casual players (like myself) I have not really had a problem with any quest on normal. A few on hard are troublesome. Elite can be near impossible to very very difficult without good leaders and skill. So I guess you have to ask, isn't that how it is supposed to be?

[Issip]

No you can't.

You ranks in a skill max out at your level + 3.

So the most you can have is 8 ranks. Plus, let's be generous, 2 for constitution on a (non-dwarf) wizard and +5 for an item, you're really looking at pretty much 15 as being a reasonable maximum at level 5. You could squeeze a few more points (up to 4) out of constitution by being a dwarf and really maxing out Con... but you are a wizard after all.

My bad - I forgot that rogues get an extra +5 from the tools that stacks with a +5 item and can be used at any level (plus a skill boost). So for a wizard with concentration you would have to hit level 7 or 8, pick up a +7 concentration item, and take a couple of enhancements to hit 30 - still within a couple levels of our level 5 friend.

I take it back though - I don't much care anyway - keep your concentration at 12 and complain about it being broken - it's easier than dealing with the forums.

[lostx]

The DC is 10 + damage + level of spell being cast. And in my experience has always been working properly.

I'd need to see a screen shot to believe you failed a 20 + 18 roll vs. 16 damage.

Ouch my concentration must really suck. Got hit with burning blood with both fire/acid resist on and failed a haste cast.

Would that be dc 13 or does the resists not count?

[Turial]

Ouch my concentration must really suck. Got hit with burning blood with both fire/acid resist on and failed a haste cast.

Would that be dc 13 or does the resists not count?

Could be that the game is taking the damage that is resisted and applying it to the damage taken portion of the equation even though your not loosing hp. Would be a little odd though.

[MysticTheurge]

Ouch my concentration must really suck. Got hit with burning blood with both fire/acid resist on and failed a haste cast.

Would that be dc 13 or does the resists not count?

If you don't take any damage, because of resists, you shouldn't even have to make a check.

[sultro]

My bad - I forgot that rogues get an extra +5 from the tools that stacks with a +5 item and can be used at any level (plus a skill boost). So for a wizard with concentration you would have to hit level 7 or 8, pick up a +7 concentration item, and take a couple of enhancements to hit 30 - still within a couple levels of our level 5 friend.

I take it back though - I don't much care anyway - keep your concentration at 12 and complain about it being broken - it's easier than dealing with the forums.

easier you mean, because some one will call you on it if you make ridiculous claims? lets try to figure out what level you do need to hit 30. and i'm not being nice like mystic.

warforged rogue1wiz5 32 pt build 22 con(20 start,+1 tome, +1 enhancement), 9 ranks, 8 con(bears endurance or house p buff), 2heroism, 2? wizards concentration enhancement,+1 rogue boost, +6 item, +2 bard buff. if all those stack, and i think they do. but, thats pretty tweaked out, and requires a bard to help you. your not doing that unless you have played a while. reasonably, you can do it by about 8-9th level

[Gratch]

Well....

Aggro management is another answer. But people in DDO don't seem to like to do that very much.

I like aggro management. This was one of those House D depths troll triple attacks from across the room... boom - no time to even throw a repair spell... well... I tried to throw one I guess...

My main badly stated (due to sadness at being dead) point was not that 20 should auto succeed, but that concentration is pulled straight form the PnP system, whereas monster damage seems to far exceed the system. I just want a multiplier (possibly from enhancements?) applied to the skill so we aren't all forced to take quicken. Would PnP trolls in a CR 5 dungeon be doing > 32 damage. Sadly I forgot to check if it was a crit... which I could probably live with failing.

[Mad_Bombardier]

No, a CR:5 troll in PnP would be doing 2 claws 2*(1d6+6) and bite (1d6+3).

I just want a multiplier (possibly from enhancements?) applied to the skill so we aren't all forced to take quicken. Would PnP trolls in a CR 5 dungeon be doing > 32 damage. Sadly I forgot to check if it was a crit... which I could probably live with failing.

There's an interesting idea. Change Caster Skill: Concentration enhancements to "You gain +x% more skill ranks on your Concentration checks."

Concentration I - You gain +25% more skill ranks on your Concentration checks.
Concentration II - You gain +50% more skill ranks on your Concentration checks.
Concentration III - You gain +75% more skill ranks on your Concentration checks.
Concentration IV - You gain +100% more skill ranks on your Concentration checks.

It's still a high AP cost (10 AP for double skill ranks). That enhancement certainly obsoletes Combat Casting and Skill Focus: Concentration. But, they were already obsoleted by Quicken. So, no big loss.

[MysticTheurge]

No, a CR:5 troll in PnP would be doing 2 claws 2*(1d6+6) and bite (1d6+3).

Of course, your wizard probably has 8-12 constitution and no "concentration items" or enhancements.

So you're looking at, what 1d20 + 8 vs. 19 + spell level twice and 16 + spell level once? (All numbers being the averages of course.)

What's really missing, of course, is "Casting Defensively" which makes the check 15 + spell level and avoids AoOs all together.

[Gratch]

I take it back though - I don't much care anyway - keep your concentration at 12 and complain about it being broken - it's easier than dealing with the forums.

Don't worry... it will go up with levels. Just not as fast as monster damage. I don't usually tweak skills via items until higher levels since lower than cap items are like shoes for kids... outgrown every 2 levels... err... few months... I'm also guessing most new players to the game don't tweak on a per level basis. They might like max-ranks concentration to work as well when they roll 20's.

My capped rogue has a self boosted +65 dd roll additive... I can tweak.

[Missing_Minds]

No, a CR:5 troll in PnP would be doing 2 claws 2*(1d6+6) and bite (1d6+3).There's an interesting idea. Change Caster Skill: Concentration enhancements to "You gain +x% more skill ranks on your Concentration checks."

Concentration I - You gain +25% more skill ranks on your Concentration checks.
Concentration II - You gain +50% more skill ranks on your Concentration checks.
Concentration III - You gain +75% more skill ranks on your Concentration checks.
Concentration IV - You gain +100% more skill ranks on your Concentration checks.

It's still a high AP cost (10 AP for double skill ranks). That enhancement certainly obsoletes Combat Casting and Skill Focus: Concentration. But, they were already obsoleted by Quicken. So, no big loss.

like the concept but that would be way to much in my opinion. 50% more at max if you ask me, but at the same cost. I mean look at how expensive they made the metamagic and how much it reduces costs.

[Mad_Bombardier]

like the concept but that would be way to much in my opinion. 50% more at max if you ask me, but at the same cost. I mean look at how expensive they made the metamagic and how much it reduces costs.

Point well taken. It was just a concept. Essentially, what we have now with +1/2/3/4 Concentration and 17 max ranks is +5.9%, +11.8%, +17.6%, and +23.5%. But, as we get more max ranks available, the percentages will become less. Eventually, +4 Concentration will be only +17.4% compared to max ranks at L20.

So, +50% might be the right point. +8 to my Concentration checks would put my autofailure at 55 dmg received. And provided that monster damage doesn't continue to spiral out of control, that'd work fairly well. Though, it would require 10 APs spent.

[Missing_Minds]

Point well taken. It was just a concept. Essentially, what we have now with +1/2/3/4 Concentration and 17 max ranks is +5.9%, +11.8%, +17.6%, and +23.5%. But, as we get more max ranks available, the percentages will become less. Eventually, +4 Concentration will be only +17.4% compared to max ranks at L20.

So, +50% might be the right point. +8 to my Concentration checks would put my autofailure at 55 dmg received. And provided that monster damage doesn't continue to spiral out of control, that'd work fairly well. Though, it would require 10 APs spent.

Something was bugging me about this and I just figured out what. I don't think the Devs would go for both having AP spent for both a % and for straight up bonus (like we currently have now) It would either be one or the other. The problem that was nagging me was the fact that if one skill mod got changed, they'd all have to be changed. This means search, DD, open lock, spot.... and well, I'm certain you can see how suddenly rogues either get way over powered compared to the quests then or get messed over again.

Ah the fun games of damage output. Remove concentration for them and make us deal with it. Kind of tempting to pull in someone woh's read more of 4.0 rules (I mean I've ready squat about it) to see how they are handling concentration now.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Ah the fun games of damage output. Remove concentration for them and make us deal with it. Kind of tempting to pull in someone woh's read more of 4.0 rules (I mean I've ready squat about it) to see how they are handling concentration now.

I agree that a % system for one skill versus flat bonuses for other skills is problematic. As an alternative, they could use some percentage of monster damage instead of straight damage (since DDO monster damage is higher).

[Aspenor]

I agree that a % system for one skill versus flat bonuses for other skills is problematic. As an alternative, they could use some percentage of monster damage instead of straight damage (since DDO monster damage is higher).

Frankly, the ready availability of magic (i.e. +10 - +15 concentration items) makes up for the extra damage in DDO.

You can either choose to wear an item or not, but you will pay for it if you don't.

And even with an item, you won't ALWAYS pass your checks without Quicken. It's supposed to be like that.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Frankly, the ready availability of magic (i.e. +10 - +15 concentration items) makes up for the extra damage in DDO.

You can either choose to wear an item or not, but you will pay for it if you don't.

And even with an item, you won't ALWAYS pass your checks without Quicken. It's supposed to be like that.

That was my initial assumption as well. But no, it really doesn't. See my above example. I have a Concentration +13 item, max ranks, high CON, & 100% Fort and I autofail on anything above 46 dmg (If DR is working properly in the calculation, I can add 10 more from Stoneskin). AUTOFAIL = no roll will result in success! My point was that quite a few creatures will hit for more than 46. It's not about never failing, it's about decreasing the interruption rates to a viable amount. And if monster damage goes up in the new mod, then Quicken will be mandatory (right now, it's just 'highly desirable'). I really dislike any feat being mandatory.

[Missing_Minds]

Frankly, the ready availability of magic (i.e. +10 - +15 concentration items) makes up for the extra damage in DDO.

You can either choose to wear an item or not, but you will pay for it if you don't.

And even with an item, you won't ALWAYS pass your checks without Quicken. It's supposed to be like that.

I agree with you on this one. And if you don't draw a ton of agro, you are still pretty much safe. Also if you learn how to time your casts to happen between npc strikes, you are also safe.

However, with the changes apparently in mod6.... well... I think most melee mobs are going to end up hitting you for more than 40 pts of damage a swing. fort or no fort. On elite I'd like at least a 50/50 shot given how over powered mobs are and how monty haul the game is designed to be.