Trip and Sunder

[Kire]

ranged stun: paralyzing bow

ranged sunder: destruction bow

ranged trip: destruction bow + paralyzing bow (-4 ac, same as trip, and cant move except on a save every couple secs, same as trip)

add in crippling and wow.. problem solved

lets not change things.. that is how problems start and a game gets ruined..

if you dont want your ranger to have str but you want him to trip/sunder/stun, then you are out of luck.. my retired elf ranger had 24 str and 34 dex.. used stunning blow and trip all the time. worked great, and with an offhand vertigo/weighted weapon, you easily make over a 20 DC on both

Sorry i am thinking of the non leet players. Not everyone has all these weapons.

Its not changing things. Its adding to the things a ranged combatant can do. Why cant i load a blunted arrow and shoot at monsters heads hoping to stun them? Why can't i shoot at mobs legs hoping they either fall over in pain or move with less speed? Why can't i aim at vulnerable parts of an opponents armor hoping all their armor will come crashing down?

For some reason ive gotten quite a few posts in here about how their rangers can trip and sunder fine with melee weapons
Let me clarify: we are talking about bows.

~Kire

[Kire]

They should add in Disarm that gives a 25% penalty to melee damage on a failed save (or whatever it is) and implement these

Ranged Disarm- Disarm an opponent at range (duh)
prerequisites are Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot as well as a 15+Dex and a BAB of +5


Ranged Pin- causes an opponent to be stuck in place
prerequisites are the same as Ranged Disarm

Ranged Sunder- sunder at range (duh)
prerequisites are the same as Ranged Disarm + Ranged Pin


these are out of the Complete Warrior

Ranged Pin would be awesome for soloists

for Stunning effect they should create sap arrows (dang it can't remember what they are really called) that are Bludgeoning and have a % chance to stun... like Weighted but since they can't be used with Stunning Blow they should up the percents a little and remove the bonus to Stunning Blow... these arrows could be a damage die down even.

Tripping... I think the Ranged Pin thing would replace it really ... but I can't recall anything that would really mimic that for ranged combat in DnD

Aesop

Maybe add these as more ways to disable opponents at range?

Rangers already get the Trip and Sunder feat so i think we should be able to apply it to a ranged item. As for stunning blow we would have to spend feats to get it just as a tank does.

Maybe make enhancments (or feats) to increase the DCs for these effects?

~Kire

[Aesop]

Maybe add these as more ways to disable opponents at range?

Rangers already get the Trip and Sunder feat so i think we should be able to apply it to a ranged item. As for stunning blow we would have to spend feats to get it just as a tank does.

Maybe make enhancments (or feats) to increase the DCs for these effects?

~Kire

well really the only reason I bring thee up is because this is what is in PnP. In PnP anyone can attempt to trip or sunder but could soak up AoO when doing so... just like anyone can grapple. with ranged weapons however they normally can't without a special feat or class ability.

really I wish they would make most Enhancements generic non class specific and instead make them based on Feats and Skills taken and class features and whatnot

then even a fighter could take ranged disarm or what ever and the enhancements to go with it. As it stands it has gotten better from the old Enhancement system but we are still put into a box and have to struggle to move out of it

Aesop

[Kire]

well really the only reason I bring thee up is because this is what is in PnP. In PnP anyone can attempt to trip or sunder but could soak up AoO when doing so... just like anyone can grapple. with ranged weapons however they normally can't without a special feat or class ability.

really I wish they would make most Enhancements generic non class specific and instead make them based on Feats and Skills taken and class features and whatnot

then even a fighter could take ranged disarm or what ever and the enhancements to go with it. As it stands it has gotten better from the old Enhancement system but we are still put into a box and have to struggle to move out of it

Aesop

Don't get me wrong, i would love disarm. Shoot a mob and suddenly their huge greatsword is gone and their punching. Coding should just be a simple IF statement.

If
           usr.state = Disarmed
           Usr.Weapon loc = Inventory

Heh but devs please dont use my coding. its messy and more then likey wrong.

~Kire

[Kire]

Dev Response perhaps?

~Kire

[Kerr]

Don't get me wrong, i would love disarm. Shoot a mob and suddenly their huge greatsword is gone and their punching. Coding should just be a simple IF statement.

If
           usr.state = Disarmed
           Usr.Weapon loc = Inventory

Heh but devs please dont use my coding. its messy and more then likey wrong.

~Kire

Well I do know this, that mobs have no inventory. They don't carry armor, weapons, anything. What you see is just skin applied to the mob, and numbers applying to their attacks.

[salmag]

Look, I agree with the OP and Aesop gives good examples, but what I really want is MANYSHOT fixed. Then I would be happy. Really, its been applied wrong from the beginning, and should be made a toggle to coincide with PnP rules. Fix it and get rid of that stupid 120 second cooldown timer. Devs, you are making Improved Precise Shot a toggle; Why not fix MANYSHOT also?

[Josh]

The question I'd like to have answered is why do NPC's only have to make a balance check when we trip them, while we have to make stat checks?

[llevenbaxx]

The question I'd like to have answered is why do NPC's only have to make a balance check when we trip them, while we have to make stat checks?

I wonder if mobs even have stats like player characters do.

I wouldnt mind there being option for ranged trip and sunder, think its actually a good idea. They will never really be as good as the melee version due to the way ranged mechanics work(can miss with no roll etc.). That imo would make them even out with the whole not in danger part.

They seem to want ranged rangers to be a support combat character imo(or at least not DPS), these feats would work well with that in mind.

[Kire]

I wonder if mobs even have stats like player characters do.

Yes they do cuz you can weaken/wound/maladroit mobs.

~Kire

[Kire]

Well I do know this, that mobs have no inventory. They don't carry armor, weapons, anything. What you see is just skin applied to the mob, and numbers applying to their attacks.

Well that little bit of crappo code is for actual players. For monsters just maybe have the damage scaled down to fists and have a new icon where they have no weapon.

~Kire

[Tyrande]

Heya this is more of a post aimed towards teh Devs but feel free to comment.
...
Trip - Instead of letting us trip enemies let us cripple them. Yes im aware of crippling weapons in the game. However as a ranger i want to be able to shoot an enemy in the leg. This should slow them down. Maybe add a chance to trip also?

Sunder - Let us be able to do it but with a neg *insert number here* to our rolls.

Stun - Most rangers dont have the room to take Stunning Blow. Instead make us a raid bow or a set of raid arrows that can do this. They can simply have a rock at teh end of them that when used have a chance to stun the opponent. Or have the arrows cast Stunning Blow after a succesful attack progression.
...

~Kire

Stunning with a bow - use a paralyzing bow or you'll have to wait until crafting is implemented for crafting "stunning arrows".

Trip with a bow - Wait until module 6 and take the feat "Crippling Strike" with a L10 rogue multi-class?

Sunder with a bow- Aren't there bows of destruction?

[Mad_Bombardier]

Stunning with a bow - use a paralyzing bow or you'll have to wait until crafting is implemented for crafting "stunning arrows".

Trip with a bow - Wait until module 6 and take the feat "Crippling Strike" with a L10 rogue multi-class?

Sunder with a bow- Aren't there bows of destruction?

Yes, we can Paralyze (daze status in DDO). But, Stunning Blow provides for autocrits. And with the combat feat, you don't have to change bows to do it.

Nope, Crippling Strike is STR damage, not a Cripple or Trip. Yes, you can use a Crippling of Slowburst bow to mimic Hamstring, but neither trip the target. And with the combat feat, you don't have to change bows to do it.

Sunder. Again, yes you can use a Destruction bow. But, Destruction and Sunder stack for a total -8 penalty to AC. And with the combat feat, you don't have to change bows to do it.

I thought Deepwood Sniper would be a good platform for ranged combat feats. But, alas, it's being implemented as DPS, DPS, and more DPS.

[Kire]

Stunning with a bow - use a paralyzing bow or you'll have to wait until crafting is implemented for crafting "stunning arrows".

Trip with a bow - Wait until module 6 and take the feat "Crippling Strike" with a L10 rogue multi-class?

Sunder with a bow- Aren't there bows of destruction?

We should be able to use these effects with any bow just like melee can do these with any weapon.

~Kire

[Kire]

Hm what if they added new feats for this? like Ranged Trip and Ranged Sunder?

~Kire

[Mercules]

As many of you know i have been trying to increase the power of rangers in the game for awhile now.

This pretty much negated a lot of what you are asking for. Rangers are already fairly versatile in the game and that gives them a great deal of power. Now, your focus that Rangers are ranged characters is what is the issue. Fighters can be better at ranged combat than a Ranger and any character that focuses on ranged combat has the same issues as you describe. Rangers have no issue tripping and so forth, ranged based characters do.

Moving on from that it should likely be a series of feats and/or enhancements and several have been mentioned in the thread. These should be available to numerous classes or everyone. It should affect thrown and projectile weapons. It should not work with Manyshot although Improved Precise Shot is debatable. Probably not as you can't toss out a Sundering Cleave.

[Aesop]

Moving on from that it should likely be a series of feats and/or enhancements and several have been mentioned in the thread. These should be available to numerous classes or everyone. It should affect thrown and projectile weapons. It should not work with Manyshot although Improved Precise Shot is debatable. Probably not as you can't toss out a Sundering Cleave.

Yeah the Improved Precise shot mechanic does make this a touch trickier. I did post a few of the feats that do exist in WotC material. There may be more but I can't recall right now. Ranged Disarm, Ranged Pin and Ranged Sunder... they are on the previous page. I figured these would be single shots that bypassed the improved precise shot merchanic and only hit one target myself... becuase how else would you pin a target to the ground if the arrow keeps going. I could almost see letting the other two work with IPS ... but that would probably be ... unbalancing (a little )

short review

Pin: holds target inplace sorta like Web does for a short duration or until save is made
Sunder: just like regular saunder only with a ranged weapon
Disarm: -10-25% (not sure how much would be reasonable) damage for a short duration or until save is made

I suggested these because they exist in the WotC material.

I also made the suggestion of the blunt (bludgeoning damage)arrows (who'd name I stll cannot recall.... **** sleep deprivation) that could have a percent chance to stun a target while doing slightly less damage per shot... though this would need a little work I'm thinking

Aesop

[Kire]

I also made the suggestion of the blunt (bludgeoning damage)arrows (who'd name I stll cannot recall.... **** sleep deprivation) that could have a percent chance to stun a target while doing slightly less damage per shot... though this would need a little work I'm thinking

Aesop

Ok call me a whiner

But i think stun (ranged) should be available via feats for every class just like stunning blow. Although a raid item that has a chance to stun (tenderizer?) with ranged would be nice.

I think my main problem is that i think every class should be able to play many different roles yet all those roles be equal and needed in the party. A straight damage ranger (using ranged) is not wanted in quests because a twf ranger or a barb or a fighter can deal out better DPS.

This pretty much negated a lot of what you are asking for. Rangers are already fairly versatile in the game and that gives them a great deal of power. Now, your focus that Rangers are ranged characters is what is the issue. Fighters can be better at ranged combat than a Ranger and any character that focuses on ranged combat has the same issues as you describe. Rangers have no issue tripping and so forth, ranged based characters do.

Moving on from that it should likely be a series of feats and/or enhancements and several have been mentioned in the thread. These should be available to numerous classes or everyone. It should affect thrown and projectile weapons. It should not work with Manyshot although Improved Precise Shot is debatable. Probably not as you can't toss out a Sundering Cleave.

I think it should work with many shot but with descending DCs (simply put : 20 dc for first shot 18 for second shot 15 for third and 12 for fourth. these numbers would change of course)

It shouldnt work with IPS. Simple coding (though probably wrong depending on how they do it):

If
           usr.attack = stun
           usr.IPS = off

Though they probably use much different Vars.

That would take care of it. For the Descending DCs they could prolly use the same code they use for the ascending attack bonus and just place an if statement in for what attack they are using:

If
           usr.attack = stun
           usr.skill = manyshot
           usr.attackbonus =-1

thats all i got. Im not sure how they have each arrow coded in. Probably couldnt do the code even if i had this section of it.

DISCLAIMER : they do not use my coding and i hope (for all of DDO's sake ) they never do.


Ok you said fighters can be better at ranged then rangers. doesnt that seem wrong to you at all? While ranger's are versatile what if i want my ranger to just be good at one thing and i want to be extremely good at it. For TWF rangers they have a whole set of feats for it. Ranged rangers have nothing to increase our damage, attacks per round, or give use + to hit when using a ranged weapon (except weapon focus). Doesn't that seem odd to you?

~Kire

[MysticTheurge]

You can't do these things in DDO because you can't do them in D&D:

Trip

You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller.

...

Tripping with a Weapon

Some weapons can be used to make trip attacks. In this case, you make a melee touch attack with the weapon instead of an unarmed melee touch attack, and you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity.

Sunder

You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding...

Now... arguably, you shouldn't be able to Stunning "Blow" either, since D&D only has Stunning Fist. And personally, I'd love for them to fix that. It's part of what keeps Stunning Fist from being too overpowered.

Stunning Fist [General]

Stunning Fist forces a foe damaged by your unarmed attack to make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + ½ your character level + your Wis modifier), in addition to dealing damage normally...

[Mercules]

Ok you said fighters can be better at ranged then rangers. doesnt that seem wrong to you at all? While ranger's are versatile what if i want my ranger to just be good at one thing and i want to be extremely good at it. For TWF rangers they have a whole set of feats for it. Ranged rangers have nothing to increase our damage, attacks per round, or give use + to hit when using a ranged weapon (except weapon focus). Doesn't that seem odd to you?

~Kire

No, it doesn't seem wrong that a class focussed specifically on fighting is better at -FIGHTING- than a class focussed on survival in the wilderness, dealing with animals, and fighting. If you want to be good at one thing and be extremely good at it you shouldn't pick a class that is so diversified.

Ranged rangers get Bow Strength to increase damage, Rapid Shot, Many Shot, and Improved Precise Shot to increase attacks per round, Precise Shot to pick the exact target you want to hit and kill. In addition you get all the TWF feats, it's your choice not to use them as well. The best Rangers I know have no problem pulling out a bow to blast down a corridor of foes or pull out two weapons to fight in melee. They do both and use all their tools including their spells and ability to heal themselves and yes, even there Animal Empathy ability.

Again you are thinking Rangers are all about bows. They are not. If you want a focussed ranged combatant you should make a Fighter and maybe splash a level of Ranger for the Bow Strength if you plan to use bows(since DDO retardedly has that feat instead of using composite bows to allow Strength as a damage modifier).