Trip and Sunder

[Kire]

Heya this is more of a post aimed towards teh Devs but feel free to comment.

As many of you know i have been trying to increase the power of rangers in the game for awhile now.

I would like to address the issue of rangers being unable to trip, sunder, and stun enemies. I can understand how we are unable to Sunder. Although its possible to wreck someones armor with an arrow its more likely to be able to trip them with a shot into the leg or stun them by shooting them in the temple.

Heres my compromise:

Trip - Instead of letting us trip enemies let us cripple them. Yes im aware of crippling weapons in the game. However as a ranger i want to be able to shoot an enemy in the leg. This should slow them down. Maybe add a chance to trip also?

Sunder - Let us be able to do it but with a neg *insert number here* to our rolls.

Stun - Most rangers dont have the room to take Stunning Blow. Instead make us a raid bow or a set of raid arrows that can do this. They can simply have a rock at teh end of them that when used have a chance to stun the opponent. Or have the arrows cast Stunning Blow after a succesful attack progression.

Please feel free to discuss.

~Kire

[Kreaper]

I have been irritated with not being able to stun for quite some time. Especially since so many mob archers can stun us.

[Hadrian]

If an arrow to the temple just stuns you, I don't want to mess with you.

[Kire]

If an arrow to the temple just stuns you, I don't want to mess with you.

Lol thats why i said there would have to be a special bow and/or arrows for stunning.

~Kire

[Shade]

Think your post is missing a key phase: ....With a bow.

Rangers can melee too..

And a Dwarf rangaer with 30 strength (will be quite easy to get in mod6 with rams might)
Dwarven tactics enhancement
improved trip

Can trip most monsters in the game quite reliably. Add in a vertigo 10 dwarf axe and you almost never fail. Considering some TWF attacks hit twice per swing (and similarly trip, sunder and stun twice in 1 blow) - your chances are actually better then a pure tacitcs 1handed or 2handed fighter!

Same with sunder and stun.

[Kire]

Think your post is missing a key phase: ....With a bow.

Rangers can melee too..

And a Dwarf rangaer with 30 strength (will be quite easy to get in mod6 with rams might)
Dwarven tactics enhancement
improved trip

Can trip most monsters in the game quite reliably. Add in a vertigo 10 dwarf axe and you almost never fail. Considering some TWF attacks hit twice per swing (and similarly trip, sunder and stun twice in 1 blow) - your chances are actually better then a pure tacitcs 1handed or 2handed fighter!

Same with sunder and stun.

Uhm.. by rangers... i mean ranged combat. Those TWF rangers arent really rangers >.> jk. =P. However. a Dwarven ranger with 30 str using a bow (bow str!) should be able to put an arrow through anythings leg. 150 pound bow!

~Kire

[Kire]

Any more opinions on this?

~Kire

[Turial]

It would be interesting to see an enhancement line open up for rangers that have taken Stunning blow and Improved trip as well as one to cripple a target.

Stunning shot: Ranged shots have a 1% chance to stun the target on a successful hit. Max it out at a 5% chance over 5 tiers.
Opens when you take stunning blow.

Tripping Shot: Ranged shots have a 1% chance to trip the target on a successful hit. Max it out as a 5% chance over 5 tiers.
Opens when you take improved trip.

Crippling Shot: Ranged shots have a 1% chance to cripple the target on a successful hit. Max it out as a 5% chance over 5 tiers.
Opens when you take point blank shot.

Obviously a really rough outline of how it could be done, but it would be really interesting to see something like this.

[Kire]

It would be interesting to see an enhancement line open up for rangers that have taken Stunning blow and Improved trip as well as one to cripple a target.

Stunning shot: Ranged shots have a 1% chance to stun the target on a successful hit. Max it out at a 5% chance over 5 tiers.
Opens when you take stunning blow.

Tripping Shot: Ranged shots have a 1% chance to trip the target on a successful hit. Max it out as a 5% chance over 5 tiers.
Opens when you take improved trip.

Crippling Shot: Ranged shots have a 1% chance to cripple the target on a successful hit. Max it out as a 5% chance over 5 tiers.
Opens when you take point blank shot.

Obviously a really rough outline of how it could be done, but it would be really interesting to see something like this.

Well theres a coupel problems with this:

1. Melee classes cna do it without enhancements or extra feats why can't rangers?
2. That would be a very steep cost for only 5%.
3. We need more ranger type raid items and this would be a very nice start.

~Kire

[Turial]

Well theres a coupel problems with this:

1. Melee classes cna do it without enhancements or extra feats why can't rangers?
2. That would be a very steep cost for only 5%.
3. We need more ranger type raid items and this would be a very nice start.

~Kire

Well I think any class needs to take the feat stunning blow to do the stunning effect. In pnp I believe there are feats that allow for the effects of sunder, sunning blow, trip, crippling, and etc to work off of ranged. Part of the reason for it being more expensive is because I made it a % chance rather then a DC based ability. This means that in an average many shot which will hit 4 targets it is very likely that the effect with affect one or more of them. In the case of a stunning blow that creature will not survive the attack.

Out of the major melee crowd control abilities to port over to ranged attacks the only one that would be really nice on a raid bow would be the stunning blow due to the damage potential. Crippling is pretty common and tripping while it would be useful lacks a particular type of flair to it.

I'm all for some sort of way for these things to work on ranged attacks. I just don't know a good way to do it and that was a sloppy attempt.

[Kire]

Well I think any class needs to take the feat stunning blow to do the stunning effect. In pnp I believe there are feats that allow for the effects of sunder, sunning blow, trip, crippling, and etc to work off of ranged. Part of the reason for it being more expensive is because I made it a % chance rather then a DC based ability. This means that in an average many shot which will hit 4 targets it is very likely that the effect with affect one or more of them. In the case of a stunning blow that creature will not survive the attack.

Out of the major melee crowd control abilities to port over to ranged attacks the only one that would be really nice on a raid bow would be the stunning blow due to the damage potential. Crippling is pretty common and tripping while it would be useful lacks a particular type of flair to it.

I'm all for some sort of way for these things to work on ranged attacks. I just don't know a good way to do it and that was a sloppy attempt.

Hah its ok. Wasn't Flaming ya bud. I think trip could be transfered over to ranged just how it is but with a chance to cripple with a line of enhancements. As for sunder that wouldn't really be as useful. Stunning blow and trip are almost the same, as they both stop an opponent from moving. Maybe make it so you had to have the feat stunning blow and when you use it theres a chance to sunder with a line of enhancements?

~Kire

[Kire]

Cmon this needs more Responses to catch the devs attention!

~Kire

[Arnya]

I have a 6rog/6rgr with 16 Strength.

My trip and sunder goes off ALL THE TIME.

I comment and people don't believe me, so I show them.

All my melee characters have sunder on F3 and trip on F4, and are the first things I hit entering melee and every 10 seconds after.

I don't have a problem with trip or sunder, they work just fine

[Kire]

I have a 6rog/6rgr with 16 Strength.

My trip and sunder goes off ALL THE TIME.

I comment and people don't believe me, so I show them.

All my melee characters have sunder on F3 and trip on F4, and are the first things I hit entering melee and every 10 seconds after.

I don't have a problem with trip or sunder, they work just fine

Talking about trip and Sunder with ranged weapons... lol. thanks for the bump though =)

~Kire

[Aesop]

They should add in Disarm that gives a 25% penalty to melee damage on a failed save (or whatever it is) and implement these

Ranged Disarm- Disarm an opponent at range (duh)
prerequisites are Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot as well as a 15+Dex and a BAB of +5


Ranged Pin- causes an opponent to be stuck in place
prerequisites are the same as Ranged Disarm

Ranged Sunder- sunder at range (duh)
prerequisites are the same as Ranged Disarm + Ranged Pin


these are out of the Complete Warrior

Ranged Pin would be awesome for soloists

for Stunning effect they should create sap arrows (dang it can't remember what they are really called) that are Bludgeoning and have a % chance to stun... like Weighted but since they can't be used with Stunning Blow they should up the percents a little and remove the bonus to Stunning Blow... these arrows could be a damage die down even.

Tripping... I think the Ranged Pin thing would replace it really ... but I can't recall anything that would really mimic that for ranged combat in DnD

Aesop

[Kire]

They should add in Disarm that gives a 25% penalty to melee damage on a failed save (or whatever it is) and implement these

Ranged Disarm- Disarm an opponent at range (duh)
prerequisites are Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot as well as a 15+Dex and a BAB of +5


Ranged Pin- causes an opponent to be stuck in place
prerequisites are the same as Ranged Disarm

Ranged Sunder- sunder at range (duh)
prerequisites are the same as Ranged Disarm + Ranged Pin


these are out of the Complete Warrior

Ranged Pin would be awesome for soloists

for Stunning effect they should create sap arrows (dang it can't remember what they are really called) that are Bludgeoning and have a % chance to stun... like Weighted but since they can't be used with Stunning Blow they should up the percents a little and remove the bonus to Stunning Blow... these arrows could be a damage die down even.

Tripping... I think the Ranged Pin thing would replace it really ... but I can't recall anything that would really mimic that for ranged combat in DnD

Aesop

Maybe add these as more ways to disable opponents at range?

Rangers already get the Trip and Sunder feat so i think we should be able to apply it to a ranged item. As for stunning blow we would have to spend feats to get it just as a tank does.

Maybe make enhancments (or feats) to increase the DCs for these effects?

~Kire

[Talish]

Interesting idea. Rangers already get standard trip like a fighter. Now for a fighter to get improved trip they need combat expertise to become an expert in combat maneuvers and improved trip as well as 13 points in INT. That's 2 feats plus a stat requirment.

What prereq would you consider for ranged trip.. just spending 1 feat doesn't seem fair enough.

Note: my main is a ranger.

[Aesop]

Interesting idea. Rangers already get standard trip like a fighter. Now for a fighter to get improved trip they need combat expertise to become an expert in combat maneuvers and improved trip as well as 13 points in INT. That's 2 feats plus a stat requirment.

What prereq would you consider for ranged trip.. just spending 1 feat doesn't seem fair enough.

Note: my main is a ranger.

Probably something like what I mention above PBS and PS

Aesop

[bigj1608]

ranged stun: paralyzing bow

ranged sunder: destruction bow

ranged trip: destruction bow + paralyzing bow (-4 ac, same as trip, and cant move except on a save every couple secs, same as trip)

add in crippling and wow.. problem solved

lets not change things.. that is how problems start and a game gets ruined..

if you dont want your ranger to have str but you want him to trip/sunder/stun, then you are out of luck.. my retired elf ranger had 24 str and 34 dex.. used stunning blow and trip all the time. worked great, and with an offhand vertigo/weighted weapon, you easily make over a 20 DC on both

[Kire]

Dev Response perhaps?

~Kire