Trip and Sunder

[Kire]

No, it doesn't seem wrong that a class focussed specifically on fighting is better at -FIGHTING- than a class focussed on survival in the wilderness, dealing with animals, and fighting. If you want to be good at one thing and be extremely good at it you shouldn't pick a class that is so diversified.

Ranged rangers get Bow Strength to increase damage, Rapid Shot, Many Shot, and Improved Precise Shot to increase attacks per round, Precise Shot to pick the exact target you want to hit and kill. In addition you get all the TWF feats, it's your choice not to use them as well. The best Rangers I know have no problem pulling out a bow to blast down a corridor of foes or pull out two weapons to fight in melee. They do both and use all their tools including their spells and ability to heal themselves and yes, even there Animal Empathy ability.

Again you are thinking Rangers are all about bows. They are not. If you want a focussed ranged combatant you should make a Fighter and maybe splash a level of Ranger for the Bow Strength if you plan to use bows(since DDO retardedly has that feat instead of using composite bows to allow Strength as a damage modifier).

I know rangers are not all about bows, but i want a ranged ranger. If rangers are survivalist why arent they called survivalists? (i know the answer not a serious question)

Fighters are focused on fighting yes, if you look at their class description it says nothing about ranging. it talks about twf, sword and board and two handed fighting. Now i know that people build builds with classes that are supposed to be focused on one thing but they make them completely focused on something else.


~Kire

[MysticTheurge]

I know rangers are not all about bows, but i want a ranged ranger. If rangers are survivalist why arent they called survivalists? (i know the answer not a serious question)

The term ranger doesn't derive from the fact that they fight at range.

It derives from the fact that they range across many lands (or even just all over one land).

Edit -- Tolkien's ranger was presumably so named because of the following:

Ranger may mean a keeper, guardian, or soldier who ranges over a region to protect the area or enforce the law ("range" meaning "travel around an area"). In Britain, the term has long been associated with a keeper of a royal forest or park.

[Mercules]

Fighters are focused on fighting yes, if you look at their class description it says nothing about ranging. it talks about twf, sword and board and two handed fighting. Now i know that people build builds with classes that are supposed to be focused on one thing but they make them completely focused on something else.

Who's class description? Turbine's? The same people who make no mention of a Cleric's offensive divine magic? Not a good definition to go with.

Let me explain.

Level 14 Fighter gets 8 bonus feats. Just using those they can take.
Point Blank Shot
Rapid Shot
Precise Shot
Weapon Focus: Ranged
Weapon Specialization: Ranged
Improved Critical: Ranged
Many Shot
Improve Precise Shot

He can then go on to take 4 more feats.
Greater Weapon Focus: Ranged
Greater Weapon Specialization: Ranged
and two others of any sort.

Ranged based Ranger has:
Bow Strength
Rapid Shot
Many Shot
Precise Shot
Improved Precise Shot

He can then go on to tkae 4 more feats.
Improved Critical: Ranged
Point Blank Shot
Weapon Focus: Ranged.

This means that the Fighter will have a better to hit, might equal the bonus damage only coming from Specialization instead of Str bonus, has the same feats as a Ranger aside from Bow Strength which is made up by Turbine and obtainable by a splash from Ranger which replaces his level 14 bonus feat). With one splash level of Ranger to get a feat that shouldn't be Ranger only he can exceed Ranger damage with a bow fairly easily.

[Mad_Bombardier]

You can't do these things in DDO because you can't do them in D&D:

How about Hamstring then? Gnoll archers do it to us.

[Kire]

The term ranger doesn't derive from the fact that they fight at range.

It derives from the fact that they range across many lands (or even just all over one land).

Edit -- Tolkien's ranger was presumably so named because of the following:

Didn't know that . haha learn new things everyday.

~Kire

[Mercules]

How about Hamstring then? Gnoll archers do it to us.

Magical bows maybe? Doesn't mean they have a feat for it.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Magical bows maybe? Doesn't mean they have a feat for it.

No, it's not a Crippling effect. If it was crippling bows, I'd be fine with it. It's Hamstring.

[Kire]

Who's class description? Turbine's? The same people who make no mention of a Cleric's offensive divine magic? Not a good definition to go with.

Let me explain.

Level 14 Fighter gets 8 bonus feats. Just using those they can take.
Point Blank Shot
Rapid Shot
Precise Shot
Weapon Focus: Ranged
Weapon Specialization: Ranged
Improved Critical: Ranged
Many Shot
Improve Precise Shot

He can then go on to take 4 more feats.
Greater Weapon Focus: Ranged
Greater Weapon Specialization: Ranged
and two others of any sort.

Ranged based Ranger has:
Bow Strength
Rapid Shot
Many Shot
Precise Shot
Improved Precise Shot

He can then go on to tkae 4 more feats.
Improved Critical: Ranged
Point Blank Shot
Weapon Focus: Ranged.

This means that the Fighter will have a better to hit, might equal the bonus damage only coming from Specialization instead of Str bonus, has the same feats as a Ranger aside from Bow Strength which is made up by Turbine and obtainable by a splash from Ranger which replaces his level 14 bonus feat). With one splash level of Ranger to get a feat that shouldn't be Ranger only he can exceed Ranger damage with a bow fairly easily.

I was not arguing the point that fighters make better rangers. Im saying rangers should be better at ranged combat.

Hm not sure how im doing it but im getting all the feats you listed above (on my 13 ranger one fighter) under ranger and all the feats for shot on the run. Odd. I'll post the build later if you want to see how.

[MysticTheurge]

How about Hamstring then? Gnoll archers do it to us.

Yeah, and Gnoll Clerics summon Mephits. And the demon queen has those nice moving blade barriers.

And you know all those other things that they do that we don't like respawning at full health when they fall in the water or not having to make concentration checks to cast spells.

That said, I really don't see a problem with letting people (rangers and fighters perhaps) do these things via enhancements. I just don't think it makes sense to be able to do them by default (since that's not how they work in D&D).

[Mercules]

I was not arguing the point that fighters make better rangers. Im saying rangers should be better at ranged combat.

Hm not sure how im doing it but im getting all the feats you listed above (on my 13 ranger one fighter) under ranger and all the feats for shot on the run. Odd. I'll post the build later if you want to see how.

Come Mod 6 you will get bonuses for standing still while using a Ranged weapon thus negating some of the use of Shot on the Run. It's still useful to kite some foes.

Rangers are great and powerful and do not need to be any better at ranged combat.

You keep missing my point.

Rangers do not need a boost... RANGED COMBAT DOES.

[Kire]

Come Mod 6 you will get bonuses for standing still while using a Ranged weapon thus negating some of the use of Shot on the Run. It's still useful to kite some foes.

Rangers are great and powerful and do not need to be any better at ranged combat.

You keep missing my point.

Rangers do not need a boost... RANGED COMBAT DOES.

Well this would be a boost to ranged combat. It can be available for everyone. I could care less.

Shot on the Run is extremely useful still. Even though i wish they would let you keep your attack progression if you had it like melee's can with spring attack.

~Kire

[Mercules]

Well this would be a boost to ranged combat. It can be available for everyone. I could care less.

Shot on the Run is extremely useful still. Even though i wish they would let you keep your attack progression if you had it like melee's can with spring attack.

~Kire

Melee do not keep attack progression with Spring Attack.

Thank you for finally seeing my point, that this is not a ranger issue, but a ranged combat issue. Now that we have reached that point... I've already agreed with you that some of these should be considered but definately not with Manyshot or Improved Precise Shot as Melee can not use such feats with Cleave or Great Cleave.

[Kire]

Melee do not keep attack progression with Spring Attack.

Thank you for finally seeing my point, that this is not a ranger issue, but a ranged combat issue. Now that we have reached that point... I've already agreed with you that some of these should be considered but definately not with Manyshot or Improved Precise Shot as Melee can not use such feats with Cleave or Great Cleave.

Spring attack does let melee keep their attack progression while moving. my brother uses it on my all the time.

I think it should be used for many shot. If you watch your arrows when you shoot with many shot they all go to the same place. If we got trip and i used it with many shot all the arrows would go to the leg.

~Kire

[Mercules]

Spring attack does let melee keep their attack progression while moving. my brother uses it on my all the time.

I think it should be used for many shot. If you watch your arrows when you shoot with many shot they all go to the same place. If we got trip and i used it with many shot all the arrows would go to the leg.

So you get 2 or 3 chances to Trip them? Hmmmm... Does a TWFer get 2 shots when they hit the Trip button? I think they might so their might be some precedent.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Whoops, thinking of another feat.

[MrCow]

Does a TWFer get 2 shots when they hit the Trip button?

When you use the trip, sunder, and stunning blow (not sure on slicing blow/sap/hamstring as I never used them before) you will roll a trip/sunder/stunning blow for both weapons if you are on a part of your attack chain that allows two weapons. I can attest to this as I have seen on a stunning blow the save icon proceeded with the stunned graphic on one of my attacks that allowed both weapons.

Trip resets the attack chain and the first attack is a single main hand swing, so currently no.

None of these combat feats (trip, sunder, stunning blow, etc.) reset your attack chain. Cleave/Great Cleave/Whirlwind attack, however, do as they count as your last attack (and use your highest last attack bonus making them ideal for starting off fights with effects like destruction).

[Mad_Bombardier]

None of these combat feats (trip, sunder, stunning blow, etc.) reset your attack chain. Cleave/Great Cleave/Whirlwind attack, however, do as they count as your last attack (and use your highest last attack bonus making them ideal for starting off fights with effects like destruction).

Ack, I was thinking Cleave/Great Cleave. You're absolutely right! I totally forgot about swing-swing-swing, tumble to enemy, Trip w/+10 to-hit.

Thanks for confirming two attacks with combat feats.

[Kire]

Well no point in quoting

But uhm ok im out of ideas for this so weve gotten it down to this:

1. Enhancments for just rangers OR feats for everyone.
2. Usable with Many Shot.
3. Not usuable with IPS.

Did i miss anything?

~Kire

[MysticTheurge]

Spring attack does let melee keep their attack progression while moving. my brother uses it on my all the time.

This is incorrect.

[Kire]

This is incorrect.

Ah ok i understand it now. SOrry ive never taken it and when i asked my bro if it did let you keep your attack progression he said yes. Now i know other wise.

~Kire