Sorcerer Damage Totals (mod4 to mod5)

[MysticTheurge]

Hmmm, ya but do any of us really know how it currently works?

Uh yeah.

You roll 1d20 + caster level + spell penetration bonuses (feats/enhancements/items) vs. the target's SR.

If you meet or exceed the SR your spell works, if you don't it fails.

The problem is that in DDO, damaging spells ignore SR, even though they shouldn't.

[Taojeff]

Uh yeah.

You roll 1d20 + caster level + spell penetration bonuses (feats/enhancements/items) vs. the target's SR.

If you meet or exceed the SR your spell works, if you don't it fails.

The problem is that in DDO, damaging spells ignore SR, even though they shouldn't.

Yeah, I do not know if this will ever be fixed. I have given up hope on this one after that one developer interview. And now with the 4.0 trend to do away with immunities. Still it is kind of fishy to pick and choose the rules from 3.5 the way they did. But hey, what you gonna do.

[Cowdenicus]

And if they implemented this SR like these guys are suggesting, then melee will once again be overpowered as compared to casters..... WOOT.

In limited amounts I am ok with this, as a general lets throw SR on everything, I am not.

[smatt]

Uh yeah.

You roll 1d20 + caster level + spell penetration bonuses (feats/enhancements/items) vs. the target's SR.

If you meet or exceed the SR your spell works, if you don't it fails.

The problem is that in DDO, damaging spells ignore SR, even though they shouldn't.

Uh duh... LOL You think I don't know how THAT part of SR is implemented.... If that's what you're saying is broken.. Nope totally 100% disagree...

SR shouldn't effect damaging spells, that's a major bork in any version of D&D. That's what elemental resistances are for. Don't have my 3.5 borked up piece of **** version (4.0 appears to be even worse) of the books here right now. But at least it was one of the things in 3.0 that worked well. SR would onyl come into play with AOE spells on the TARGETED creature msot of the time. NOT when a creature walks into a spell that's already in effect. If they ran it like you suggest then it would be even worse for the casters.

WoF should be nerfed, but I'm sure I'll get the snivel attack for that.... Perhaps, extend the cool down when you use it with meta's...... But if they fix the other stuff there would be no need really. Let's face it the caters did get a bad deal for a long time. And are really limited to onyl a few spells.... You gotta give em something...

[smatt]

Yeah, I do not know if this will ever be fixed. I have given up hope on this one after that one developer interview. And now with the 4.0 trend to do away with immunities. Still it is kind of fishy to pick and choose the rules from 3.5 the way they did. But hey, what you gonna do.

Here's the thing Tao.... There are no ture rules in D&D... There are guidelines... No DM has to do anything...... They can change things as they see fit....

[smatt]

Yeah, it gets to now a days I no longer feel like I my WASD hand is going to fall of anymore, kind of miss it. Yeah, I know what your saying. And truthfully it is hard to be the one to step up and say, hey this has gotta happen for the good of the game. It is even harder for the devs to swing the nerf bat, knowing the kind of reaction they are going to get. All I know, is that SOMETHING must be done. And I for one am committed to seeing this issue through.

OK, first thingn is that you and others call it a "nerf bat". It's NOT a nerf, it's a rule change... The second the word nerf comes out the crying starts..... Again, that's why I go back to the fact that it's really hard to take thigns away.... Not neccesary.... Just make things a bit harder by adding SOME stuff to current HIGH level mobs, and future HIGH LEVEL mobs.

Now I am open to suggestions, and I do not expect the devs to use every suggestion they see. I am just throwing some suggestions out there, and others can do the same. What I do NOT think we should do is ignore the problem.

Not up to "Us" It's up to the Devs and the direction they want to take the game. If they want it to continue the way it is... So be it.... I'll play the game till I don't have fun anymore, as will others. BUT I think that if thsi trend continues it'll be a bunch of casters running around trying to prove how big their schwange is, and not much else. It'll loose it's variety and will die even fater.....
Just wanna comment on the suggestions you made.

1. All good ideas, but I think fixing enemy AI I think would go even farther to in restoring the balance. The problem is that the enemy AI reacts so differently to what you logically think they would. it is easy in PnP, or games like NWN for the most part, cause you can have a live DM/GM to step in and control the AI. And you gotta give the devs credit for what they have done so far. AI for MMOs is no joke....it is hard to implement in single player games without having to worry about the lantency issues an mmo has.

Agreed AI is by far the hardest, and MOST EXPENSIVE..... It's almost impossible to test on a budget, no matter what the geniuses around here say or think...

2. Yeah, I never understood the whole re-entry thing. I mean its a quest, and some of them your supposedly quite a ways a way from Eberron, days even. That kind of time would normally mean make/break in a PnP campaign. The monsters are not just going to sit on their haunches and take 5 (DAYS!!!!) while you go back to town or whatnot. And what happened to patrols? I never understood how you could rest so well in a dungeon overrun with mobs.

Well this isn't PnP, and it never will be.... There are no instant adjustments made by a live DM. They need to make the quests doable by a wide swath of people playing different characters and at varying skill levels. Yet another difficult problem. So you're going to tell the jsut OK players they can't have a chance at that really high level loot... Not a chance at all... That wouldn't be very popular....
[/quote] 3. What happened to the elemetal immunity, anti-magic, and silence spells, Were these left out to give casters and easy time?[/quote]

Who knows really.... I doubt the silence spell will ever make it in. Somethings just won't work well in the enviroment...There are so many implementation situations within the game intereactiosn that have to be taken into acount. Elemental immunities should be a bit more common in my view. I think enemy casters got the biggest nerf bat to be honest

Let's face it, none of this is an easy propositon for the Devs... This is hard stuff to consider, to try and design it,then code it, then test it with all the different permetations of classes, races, other spells, etc etc etc. Then there's all the unitended interactiosn that happen anytime you do anything... It's very difficult for anybody to forsee all the things 1,000's of people will do within a game.... Then they have please the whinny ass D&D players, as well as all the other gamers.....

Who knows exactly what they have in mind for mod 6 or the future mods. Personally, I'll just go with the flow, changes will come..... Whether I like them or not, they will come, I'll keep playing till it's not fun anymore. At this point none of the problems with the game are that big of a deal to "ME", but I'm easy..... I simply adjust my tactics and play style to fit the tools they give me... Nothing more nothing less....

[smatt]

And if they implemented this SR like these guys are suggesting, then melee will once again be overpowered as compared to casters..... WOOT.

In limited amounts I am ok with this, as a general lets throw SR on everything, I am not.

Ummmmmmm, more creative reading there Cow... I don't see anywhere that anybody said everything should have somekind of amazing SR. Or even any SR, and I also don't see anywhere where people are saying that casters shouldn't be bad ass.... I'm certainly not, never have..... But of course YOU think everything is fine with the caster classes right now and how it works within the entire game, and seem to have no problem with stretching people's statements, opinions, as well as situations within gameplay to fit your agenda of status quo ... So we will likely continue to disagree

[Emili]

Uh yeah.

You roll 1d20 + caster level + spell penetration bonuses (feats/enhancements/items) vs. the target's SR.

If you meet or exceed the SR your spell works, if you don't it fails.

The problem is that in DDO, damaging spells ignore SR, even though they shouldn't.

Fireball
Evocation [Fire]
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes

I believe they did this because the mob has inflated hp to make the encounter lasted a tad longer... We've 2hander melee per say swinging away 96 swings a min - 1.6 swings a second for 2d6 +35 damages before crits and a caster casting 100-600hp damages on a sec with a cooldown... SR on a damage spell tends to hurt the casters pool when it comes to the DC's... Wizards would fair out a tad better due to the amount they can push into feat vs a sorc.

Seriously though I think DnD SR - the way it is suppose to be according to the 3.5 rules - would be a good thing and allow them to do away with blanket immunities on nameds etc... It would make for better play in the quests as the tactics would have more variety with different strategies involved to reach the quest end ... it would mix it up quite a bit.

One of the biggest problems with the PVE is the AI and the fact the mob plays with a different set of rules... what would the player community think if the mob was generated like a PnP DM created it... giving the Mob and NPC the same abilities as the PCs? In all honesty I blame the AI and quests in the game for the problem of class power - I always have. They beef up the mob in the next mod then Turbine attempts to fix it by tossing enhancements to classes and races to adjust.

[Yaga_Nub]

I blame Yaga Nub.

Sure blame me when I'm not around to defend myself!

I didn't say 50% should be the number. I said I'd be okay with it on elite!

[smatt]

Fireball
Evocation [Fire]
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes

I believe they did this because the mob has inflated hp to make the encounter lasted a tad longer... We've 2hander melee per say swinging away 96 swings a min - 1.6 swings a second for 2d6 +35 damages before crits and a caster casting 100-600hp damages on a sec with a cooldown... SR on a damage spell tends to hurt the casters pool when it comes to the DC's... Wizards would fair out a tad better due to the amount they can push into feat vs a sorc.

Seriously though I think DnD SR - the way it is suppose to be according to the 3.5 rules - would be a good thing and allow them to do away with blanket immunities on nameds etc... It would make for better play in the quests as the tactics would have more variety with different strategies involved to reach the quest end ... it would mix it up quite a bit.

One of the biggest problems with the PVE is the AI and the fact the mob plays with a different set of rules... what would the player community think if the mob was generated like a PnP DM created it... giving the Mob and NPC the same abilities as the PCs? In all honesty I blame the AI and quests in the game for the problem of class power - I always have. They beef up the mob in the next mod then Turbine attempts to fix it by tossing enhancements to classes and races to adjust.

Well, AI is again by far the hardest thign to code in the game AFAIK, and to keep the game interesting we need all those fancy itmes and weapons. That leads to more damage output and therefore that leads to more mob HPs... I woudl agree quest design could be a bitmroe thoughtful.. But hey, I haven't tried to do it from the gorund up and neither has anybody else commenting here. Sure it's easy to say after it's all done tht this should be like this and that should be like that. Also, remember they have to allow for different levels of play, even above the normal, hard, elite. Not at all an easy proposition..... Probably far easier to make adjustments with other aspects of the game, and this also gives us all moe to do and think about in tweaking toons around this way and that.


What I do know, is that melees are limited by time, killing takes WAY longer, as well as cost, healing, buffs etc. While casters only limit is..... Mana, which at this point isn't limited.....

[Jaywade]

I keep reading all this make SR work like it does in PnP.....are you guys kidding me?

tell ya what do this get you a SR 15 item run around w/ a low will save melee based toon...take notice how often you see a blue blur around you..... now that's just for bestoe curse's, fear's, hold's, ect ....if it was for damage too... cause if that was to be made the case let's all roll drow 10/2/2 fighter/pally/rogue with high cha, dex and maxed out SR ....so on a fireball I'll get a SR check and if it get by that I then have a reflex check as well, same for a FOD, let me get my SR check than my fort save.....give me a break...that would break the game....listen the game is not done...at this point right now is the game "unbalanced" at current lvl cap maybe but wasn't it lvl 1 ?????...I mean all my lvl 1 fighters could bash through things my lvl 1 wizz or sorc couldn't ...so ....so what if my lvl 14 sorc and solo what a lvl 14 fighter can't....honestly are there not better things to be concered about in this game??? new classes?? new races?? new content?? no we get more of this ""ohh poo, player x can do something that I can't do, or player x can kill better than me" give it a rest

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I have an idea. maybe code the AI to treat firewall as an actual wall, so it would go around the firewall after being hit once by it. this wouldn't work on multiple walls very well, but it would force the caster to use more SP to kill a mob, which is the point right? Firewall kills stuff too easy. if that's the problem, make it take more firewalls to kill something, where you would have to create an elaborate wall of firewalls to keep the mobs stuck in it. like, make one next to a real wall, trapping the monster inside a little "box" and then drop a second firewall on top of the mob. this would make firewall much more difficult to use, since monsters would essentially stay out of the fire like a normal person would. Then firewall would become a way to slow down mobs so tanks could kill them easier as they ran around it. Or of you want to get real fancy, take a big mob of 10 monsters, split a firweall down themiddle in a room that has no path around it and you have cut your mob size in half. still worth it, but going to take a bit more work than running in a circle in your own fire.

anyway, I like firewall how it is. but I would prefer a change like this to a Sorc/wizzy nerf which I don't think is necessary.

-Wolfster/Blasticka/Stixthe

In PnP D&D, I never used or even considered Fire Wall as an attack spell.
I considered it as a barrier to keep things away from me....especially the fire ring version.
No one in their right mind would walk through a wall of fire or stay in one if there was another option.
It should be considered an actual barrier......unless you are smart enough to buff up against it to achieve an important goal.
And anything that gets burned should make it their number one priority to get out!

Now....that said intelligent baddies should know when it is time to suck it up and charge! But this is a last resort, unless you are very resistant to fire damage.

On a side note: all spells have range......if you stay out of range of a spell, a caster can not hurt you. Important for Devs and PvPers to remember. (fighters can use ranged weapons if they choose, and high strength makes throwing weapons do a lot of damage)(Devs might want to beef up throwing weapons a little to make them a more attractive tactic)

[MysticTheurge]

I keep reading all this make SR work like it does in PnP.....are you guys kidding me?

No.

And you bring up the other side of the argument. SR, as a player, should be a valid way to defend yourself against enemy casters. Currently, it's not really.

It shouldn't be protecting you 100% of the time, but if it blocks 60-70% of the enemy spells thrown at you, that's fine. The current version of SR is so gimped it's kind of pointless for doing anything besides protecting low-will-save characters from will-save spells. That shouldn't be all SR does.

[Strakeln]

2150? no offense but not possible without charming involved. Ask Mad hes crunched it and it didn't hit that high. ill say once again no offense got a screenie?

Highest crit CoC possible is 1097 (see calculations above). Enemies vulnerable to cold (purple damage) take double that, correct? 2x1097 = 2194.

[Taojeff]

In PnP D&D, I never used or even considered Fire Wall as an attack spell.
I considered it as a barrier to keep things away from me....especially the fire ring version.
No one in their right mind would walk through a wall of fire or stay in one if there was another option.
It should be considered an actual barrier......unless you are smart enough to buff up against it to achieve an important goal.
And anything that gets burned should make it their number one priority to get out!

Now....that said intelligent baddies should know when it is time to suck it up and charge! But this is a last resort, unless you are very resistant to fire damage.

On a side note: all spells have range......if you stay out of range of a spell, a caster can not hurt you. Important for Devs and PvPers to remember. (fighters can use ranged weapons if they choose, and high strength makes throwing weapons do a lot of damage)(Devs might want to beef up throwing weapons a little to make them a more attractive tactic)

Actually thrown weapons get the attack progression all range weapons get next mod. I know my fighter was having fun with his many different throwing weapons on Risia.

Yeah, baddies should just plain stay out of firewalls. AI should go something like this:

1. OUCH I am in a firewall. Move away. Heal Self (with potions spells, etc, or call for a heal from an ally).
2. Am I a caster. If so cast BE near the firewall (or greater dispel or dispel if they actually worked).
3. Am I a caster. Try to neutralize the enemy spell caster at range with spells like feeblemind that take away casting ability.
4. Try to eliminate caster with SOD spells.
5.. Throw my own firewall on top the enemies firewall to trick em.
6. If not a caster, stay far back and range enemy caster till firewall is gone.
2. C

[smatt]

Actually thrown weapons get the attack progression all range weapons get next mod. I know my fighter was having fun with his many different throwing weapons on Risia.

Yeah, baddies should just plain stay out of firewalls. AI should go something like this:

1. OUCH I am in a firewall. Move away. Heal Self (with potions spells, etc, or call for a heal from an ally).
2. Am I a caster. If so cast BE near the firewall (or greater dispel or dispel if they actually worked).
3. Am I a caster. Try to neutralize the enemy spell caster at range with spells like feeblemind that take away casting ability.
4. Try to eliminate caster with SOD spells.
5.. Throw my own firewall on top the enemies firewall to trick em.
6. If not a caster, stay far back and range enemy caster till firewall is gone.
2. C

OK, time to take the other side or wait soem side LOL

Um, lets nto get to hasty on how things should happen with AI. Sure that would be a good way to go in PnP, but yet again this isn't PnP. The game has to account for a great vareity of skill levels. If the above was implemented Sure;y they should work around them much more then thet do currently though.