Sorcerer Damage Totals (mod4 to mod5)

[Dimz]

2150? no offense but not possible without charming involved. Ask Mad hes crunched it and it didn't hit that high. ill say once again no offense got a screenie?

lol who would take a screen of everything. I don't think its that impressive i dont even remember the quest. But I remember it was 2000-2100, On an efreeti.

[Lifespawn]

try inferno of the damned see how many fw it takes u there

or fleshmakers lab that 1 would be fun mobs have 400 hp's? where do u get that maybe in lvl 10-12 quests more like 500+ and thats on normal.

Before the change casters were alot less useful oh and your calculations don't take into account any thrown buffs like jump haste resists stoneskin things most casters don't go without.

[Dimz]

It's simple I have had regular COC's hit for 900-1000ish.. Fire monster = double damage.. whats 2x 900-1000? Answer: 2,000ish

[Serpent]

try inferno of the damned see how many fw it takes u there

You don't use Firewall in Inferno, because the monsters are frequently immune to fire, or even healed by it. You use Fear/Hypno/Dance on the humans, Finger on the Elementals, and Cone of Cold on the Cinderspawns and mephits. Crowd control is the key to a smooth Inferno run, so it's a place that sorcs, wizards, and bards overpower any warriors.

or fleshmakers lab that 1 would be fun mobs have 400 hp's? where do u get that maybe in lvl 10-12 quests more like 500+ and thats on normal.

How many firewalls in Fleshmaker? Well, I basically use 3 to kill the boss. Nobody but a sorc or wiz can kill that boss 1/10th as well. A ranger can do it slowly, but for melees to fight him.... that's simply pathetic.
As to the rest of Fleshmaker, fighting the Golems? Well, everyone but the cleric is irrelevant there, because they all get killed by a few Blade Barriers. But if I do need to fight golems, a single Disintegrate takes off 90-100% of it's life.

Before the change casters were alot less useful oh and your calculations don't take into account any thrown buffs like jump haste resists stoneskin things most casters don't go without.

Interesting that you mention that. Yes, it is true that a sorcerer might often find that he won't use all his spellpoints to inflict damage, because some of his other spells are more useful. But think it through- the fact that a class has options which are (sometimes) preferable to damage is actually a further strength of the class.

Damage is one option for a sorc, using some of his mana for other spells is another option. Both can be viable. A character who can fight OR do other things is better than one who just fights... even if his combat power was a little less. Bards particularly excel at this

[Cowdenicus]

You don't use Firewall in Inferno, because the monsters are frequently immune to fire, or even healed by it. You use Fear/Hypno/Dance on the humans, Finger on the Elementals, and Cone of Cold on the Cinderspawns and mephits. Crowd control is the key to a smooth Inferno run, so it's a place that sorcs, wizards, and bards overpower any warriors.



How many firewalls in Fleshmaker? Well, I basically use 3 to kill the boss. Nobody but a sorc or wiz can kill that boss 1/10th as well. A ranger can do it slowly, but for melees to fight him.... that's simply pathetic.
As to the rest of Fleshmaker, fighting the Golems? Well, everyone but the cleric is irrelevant there, because they all get killed by a few Blade Barriers. But if I do need to fight golems, a single Disintegrate takes off 90-100% of it's life.



Interesting that you mention that. Yes, it is true that a sorcerer might often find that he won't use all his spellpoints to inflict damage, because some of his other spells are more useful. But think it through- the fact that a class has options which are (sometimes) preferable to damage is actually a further strength of the class.

Damage is one option for a sorc, using some of his mana for other spells is another option. Both can be viable. A character who can fight OR do other things is better than one who just fights... even if his combat power was a little less. Bards particularly excel at this

Only Since Mod 5 has damage become a real option for casters....... you know, unlike melee who has had damage as an option since the beginning.

[Serpent]

Only Since Mod 5 has damage become a real option for casters....... you know, unlike melee who has had damage as an option since the beginning.

Though I agree that melee's have always had damage as an option to them the opening post says very much different than what you say about casters.

[dameron]

This is important.

Damage was never a very viable option for casters early on. It has become one since Mod 5. I see nothing particularly wrong with this.

Exactly.

How long ago was it that folks were running around saying "Charm is too powerful"?

Fortunately the current D20 rules are skewed toward casters at higher levels. DDO's horrid forcing of empower+ maximize is a sickness, but at least attacking an enemy's hit points is a viable tactic now.

I'd hate it if they suddenly pulled away from that model and dorked casters, especially since melee had like a full year of being grossly (like +10 action boost) overpowered.

[GlassCannon]

My largest Purple Cone of Cold was against a Fire Giant Somethingorother in Gianthold Tor: 1,984 damage.
My largest Red Delayed Blast Fireball was one of many on an Elder Air Elemental in Stormreaver on Elite: 1,054 damage. Double this for purple #'s and you have 2,108 damage.

My best Niac's was a purple # against a Fire Giant in the Tor: 1,440 damage.

Regular #'s hang around 300 damage for the expense of 67 SP on a delayed blast fireball. I can only launch so many of those, and they only really work against certain monsters in certain situations. Tanks can damage to that degree infinitely against a Held monster, or use paralyzers and wound the things to death. Casters are still behind tanks/rangers in overall combat power. They simply choose the right moment to fire off whatever spell to benefit the party because it's less painful for them to contribute than to let the party handle it without them. This careful tactical planning makes them seem 'uber'.

My sorc is 100% fire/ice specialized and has the BEST gear you can possibly have for said application. She does nothing else.

[Emili]

Only Since Mod 5 has damage become a real option for casters....... you know, unlike melee who has had damage as an option since the beginning.

That is not neccessarily true... Are you saying you had no DPS before mod 5... or no other options to play the character? before mod 5 I was soloing cabal, trial by fire, feast or famine and wiz-king and while it was more a mix of other spells along with damage spells - the caster got the job done quicker than any of my other classes could alone. That in of itself tells you something does it not? It tells me a caster class is a more playable than the other class.

[Emili]

Only Since Mod 5 has damage become a real option for casters....... you know, unlike melee who has had damage as an option since the beginning.

That is not neccessarily true... Are you saying you had no DPS before mod 5... or no other options to play the character? Before mod 5 I was soloing cabal, trial by fire, feast or famine and wiz-king and while it was more a mix of other spells along with damage spells - the caster got the job done quicker than any of my other classes could alone. That in of itself tells you something does it not? It tells me a caster class is a more playable.

[Serpent]

Regular #'s hang around 300 damage for the expense of 67 SP on a delayed blast fireball. I can only launch so many of those, and they only really work against certain monsters in certain situations. Tanks can damage to that degree infinitely against a Held monster, or use paralyzers and wound the things to death. Casters are still behind tanks/rangers in overall combat power. They simply choose the right moment to fire off whatever spell to benefit the party because it's less painful for them to contribute than to let the party handle it without them. This careful tactical planning makes them seem 'uber'.

Are you implying that every sword swing is the equivalent of casting a spell? If so then I understand how you see melee's as more powerful. I view it as the ability of the character to remove the threat and move onto the next encounter while maintaining the highest level of survivability. The best way to do this is massive damage or removal of enemy (CC).

[Shade]

Could you list a few of those harder quests? Ones that you couldn't beat with 16 Maximized Empowered Walls of Fire, but can beat with 27. I'd like some examples to consider.

Dunno about wall of fires, didn't need much of those in mod4 really if you carefully placed them in very strategic locations. But other spells like disintegrate and fireball/delayed blast fireball we are definetely using more of and needing more of.

(refering to elite mode on all quests)
lots of firewalls? hmm pre-nerf abbot.. Current demon queen, which was updated to be harder for mod5.
lots of firewalls and disintegrates? ghosts of perdition (with optionals)
lots of fireballs/cone of colds? temple of vol
lots of everything? black mausoleum - cholthuulz wing

I dunno, sure we cast allot more and everyone smartened up and uses maximuze all the time (personally I used it all the time in mod4 anyways) but I think it's more about castings being smarter and maximizing more often like should have been before then we getting such a huge boost. I didn't notice that big of a boost on my sorc.

I think the changes were fine.

And im not caster biased because my main is a Barbarian, and has been for years.

[wrightdjohn]

Prior to the changes a wizard/sorcerer pretty much had two options. He could very rarely lay down a powerful attack and for most of the game just follow along and do nothing.

Or.. He could buff the party members and do some crowd control.

Or.. He could do regular attacks which were far less effective than a fighters generally


Now..
He can do all three to some degree. He is actually in the game and part of it. I think casters were horribly underpowered prior to the changes. I started the game with a wizard who I took up to 10. I then started playing a fighter type and realized that wizards were just weak. Recenly I've came back to the wizard class and am enjoying it again.

I think in a single blast that uses up 1/10 of a wizards spell points that that blast should do 5 to 10 times what a fighter can do every single time he swings. I regularly see fighters do 100+ hit points a "round". In fact I believe a properly built high level fighter with a damage focus is closer to 150 to 200.

Now I realize you do have sorcerers and wizards sniping everything coming and going with niacs just for the fun of it. This is partly a result of knowing the quests so well and know the shrines.

So if they nerf wizards/sorcerer back to pre-mod5 then I see a lot of people just not playing them anymore.

[MysticTheurge]

I'm not asking for a caster nerf, never have.

Oh come now... let's be honest:

Fixes
There are many possible ways Turbine can try fixing or improving this problem, but all of them bring serious downsides (which I won't fully detail).

1. Nerf casters...

2. Nerf casters...

3. Nerf casters...

4. Buff non-casters...

5. Nerf the Wall of Fire spell...

6. Nerf Wall of Fire and Blade Barrier...

In my opinion, choice 1 or 2 is the best.

[Hakushi]

Oh come now... let's be honest:

Fixes
There are many possible ways Turbine can try fixing or improving this problem, but all of them bring serious downsides (which I won't fully detail).

1. Nerf casters...

2. Nerf casters...

3. Nerf casters...

4. Buff non-casters...

5. Nerf the Wall of Fire spell...

6. Nerf Wall of Fire and Blade Barrier...

In my opinion, choice 1 or 2 is the best.

Oh my god, I rarely post, but this is a good laugh, you say let's be honest, and you only post the part you want of his post and making him say what you want him to say. I call that a lie or being hypocrite, not to be honest. It's easy to just take a part of a post, and to remove everything else, I can make almost everyone say what I want to. If you want to be honest, post the complete quote, and not the one you so proudly modified to your advantage.

[MysticTheurge]

Oh my god, I rarely post, but this is a good laugh, you say let's be honest, and you only post the part you want of his post and making him say what you want him to say. I call that a lie or being hypocrite, not to be honest. It's easy to just take a part of a post, and to remove everything else, I can make almost everyone say what I want to. If you want to be honest, post the complete quote, and not the one you so proudly modified to your advantage.

I took the parts that were relevant. The entire post was significantly longer and most of it didn't pertain to the topic at hand.

He claims to have never asked for a nerf to casters. But his previous posts include what I quoted above. The ellipses refer to how he intends to nerf casters, but by his own admission they would be nerfs. I'm not sure why anything else would be necessary.

However, if you really want to read the entire post in full, just to make sure I didn't twist his words, there's that nice little arrow next to his name in the quote which lets you go see if I dropped anything really that important.

Edit -- Perhaps you think I edited the quote to change his detailed "solution" to say "nerf casters" but I can assure you that I did not. Those are his own words. I merely shortened each statement to the first couple words of the line.

[Aesop]

Oh come now... let's be honest:

That's funny I don't care who you are

As for the damage totals... given the HP of Mobs I'd say that sounds about right.

If you wanted to bring casters in a little you could go with an effective spell level maximum... could be max effective spell level = the highest level spell you could cast ... thus limiting the higher level spells effectiveness severely... or highest spell level +1 or 2 to add a little power back in but still limit it somewhat

so a 14th level sorceror with the max spell level +2 option would be able to cast a maximized and empowered wall of fire but would have to wait til 16th level to throw an Extended version of the same

all this option does is spread the power out a little over the levels but it may help make it feel a little more balanced over all

As far as persistent AoEs go having mobs make decisions based on these spells would be a good thing. backing up and switching to ranged. Targeting the casters first. Using Break Enchantment to remove tese effects would be a good option. Also removing the stack of Firewall and having them not overlap. Make it so that a WoF takes up a certain area and that other WoF can't occupy the same space at the same time. Further walls get pushed to the outside of the effected area.

give melee a few Enhancement options based on class... Like Fighter Weapon Mastery which allows them to focus on a single weapon type and gived them further bonuses with said weapon. Change Paladin's Smite Evil from a use per rest to a Cooldown like they did with Stunning Blow. Give Paladins Enhancements to increase their Damage with the Smites. Barbarians are uber already Change Rogue's Sneak Attack Training from +2/4/6/8 per Sneak Attack to +1/2/3 per Sneak Attack DIE.... ie a 13th level Rogue could currently do 7d6+8 damage while with what I propose would do 7d6+21. Rangers... well they are doing pretty well with the melee ranger with the Tempest Enhancement and what not... we'll see how that plays out and make judgements on it later.... Ranged Rangers may still need a boosts though... like a RoF increase perhaps

overall while there may be an imbalance I don't think nerfing anyone into the ground is a good idea. slight changes here and there would help I'm sure but nothing too drastic. Also if you nerf one aspect of a character it is always good form to give something back to them... ie MORE SPELLS... like a lot more


Aesop

[Hvymetal]

Seriously after lots of consideration I feel casters shouldn;t be nerfed, but melee definatly needs to be brought up on par, or at least a little closer (especially us poor Rogues)

[Cowdenicus]

That is not neccessarily true... Are you saying you had no DPS before mod 5... or no other options to play the character? before mod 5 I was soloing cabal, trial by fire, feast or famine and wiz-king and while it was more a mix of other spells along with damage spells - the caster got the job done quicker than any of my other classes could alone. That in of itself tells you something does it not? It tells me a caster class is a more playable than the other class.

That was a typo on my part, I meant Mod 4..... but the point is still the same. Mod 4 casters (and clerics) gained alot of soloability with FoD and Destruction, Mod 5 allows damage to be used a bit more effectively.

Casters are not more playable than other classes, they all play, some solo better than others. For example my WF Pally solos at lower levels (he is 6 right now) like there is nothing between him and his objective. My currently rerolled sorc is not having as easy of a time at 4. My level 4 human TWF barbarian has a hard time even getting hit (might be that mithral full plate but who knows)

[Cowdenicus]

Though I agree that melee's have always had damage as an option to them the opening post says very much different than what you say about casters.

because there is no agenda for your posts as of late......