Trolls, Flamers and Bullies.

[Kire]

Agree to disagree.

The internetz and arguing on the internetz is like kissing your cousin. It might feel good, but it's still baaaad.

Continuing an argument across 4 different threads is like peeing your pants. It's a warm tingly feeling at first, until you realize what you did.

Trying to knock some sense into Kire is like....[insert funny metaphor]

We were all new at once, some people get a better grasp at the game then others. I share the same definition of a "newb" as Kire does. Not someone new to the game, thats a newbie, but a noob is one of those guys who insists on doing his own thing even though repeatedly asked to stop fire-walling the Iron Golem....which leads kind and charming Bards to go nuts.

You are mistaking people in this thread of bashing on newbies and noobs alike.

Case in point, Kire was in a Titan PuG two weeks back where this guy did not understand the concept of accepting a raise dead spell. Did Kire go off on him? No he didn't. Did Dimz go off on him? No. Did I go off on him? No, but we did try to explain to him how it works.

So don't think for one second that you are better than everyone else here, because you tolerate foolishness in your groups. It's your $15, spend it how you will, and we will spend ours how we want.

Now drop it, move on, and go back to teaching people how to run TBF.

Thank you Thank you. Trust me the first time i did titan i took the res as soon as i got it. where i died in the first place. that was pretty funny.

BTW! let me take this chance to advertise me and Dimz pug titan raids! fastest titan raids on the server! lotsa fun!

~Kire

[Litz]

If someone from another server has read through these 5 pages of, well I'll save the descriptive adjictive, and leave that up to you, please don't judge our server based on these sets of people or even me. Our server has space for all kinds of characters, and if you want you could avoid any char. here and still have a great time on Khyber..

that is all carry on..

[Cuchilo]

Before I start, I'd like to say...you ask more questions than even I do. And I thought I asked more questions than what was normal. O.O

You did say you wanted to debate etc.

Example of poor behaviour: You gather a pug group for a GH loot run of TBF. For the purpose of not just loot but to offer a chance at some newbies in GH to get a chance to understand the quests AND put some PP in their pockets. One certian player is an exeperienced player and while you are running said quest, this player insists on private messaging me rude comments about "The stupid noobs" in MY group. He acknownledges I am a good player and that I know my game(Maybe to butter me up?) but his comments do NOT win me over nor will I ever go along with talking down to my team memebers. Its bad form and just plain rude. If you are a part of any party I am in or leading, you will be treated fairly and given the chance to contribute to the quest. Someone wants to zerg and leave everyone to fend for themselves, thats NOT teamwork. If you want to zerg while in a group, drop and zerg solo. Never think I will accept bad behaviour in my party.

So we are back to specifics then. You are once again referring to a single player with who you had a bad experience. You seem to be against talking behind your team members back, but you did not have a problem sending PMs to people on these boards claiming bad attitude etc about various players. Don't you think it is the same thing? As to your example, I'll say it again: You have every right to recall out of the quest, with the rest of the party, drop and reform. You can all use the /squelch command, and go questing without the troublesome rude player in question. As a separate point, how do you get a group of new players into a quest in Gianthold? They can't be new to the game, as they need to be 10th level to even run there. If they are lower than that, the leader of the group is perhaps asking too much of them before they are ready. Any player who has made 10th level issurely capable of defending themselves in game from harassment. Perhaps you should have just copied those worrisome /tells to the party window and let them defend themselves?

Example #2: You are leading another group in-game with newbies of course. The experienced cleric of the group decides for himself to not only zerg but to drag every single creature back to the rest of the party who clearly are not ready to face that amount of mobs at once. Party starts dropping like flies and I am doing my best to not only protect the rest of the party from being wiped out but watching as this same zerging cleric not offering to heal ANYONE but himself. When I ask this cleric after repeated times why he is doing all of this, his response: "Me and my brother solo this all the time!" Ok one, you are not playing with your brother and two...you are with a group, your are not soloing this quest. Act as a team player or find another group to "solo" with. Is teamwork such a hard concept for some people to grasp?

Again we are on specifics about a cleric you seem to have a crusade against. And again, there is nothing to prevent you recalling out, dropping group and reforming. You can then /squelch the player whose playstyle you don't like, and not group with him or her ever again. You seem to constantly be trying to dictate the playstyle of other players. You don't have the right to do that. You do have the right not to group with any player whose playstyle you don't like however.

Example #3: You see an LFM up asking for any time of class. You send a polite tell to the leader, "May I join you all?" Simple yet polite. Said leader response back to you in a snotty tone: "I don't know, can you?" Really, did that person need to act like that? Then when I told this person: "Ok, guess not. Good luck then." I join another group and kindly asked anyone in the group if they know this particular person. Everyone in the party starts going off about this said person with not so kind words. How this said person is just a kid and other things I do not care to mention. Well, I got a little upset not just for them being rude about this said person but giving me more than I was really asking for. A simple, yeah we know him would have worked just as well.

Why would you bother sending a /tell if the lfm has you listed as welcome? Why not just join? At the same time, if the player was 'rude' to you, once again you have that wonderful option of using the /squelch command and not having to ever listen to them again. As to your getting upset with all of the players in a subsequent group, are you noticing a bit of a trend here? Of course, once again, if you were really upset with their behaviour you could have dropped group and used the /squelch command on the five of them as well.

Example #4: A few weeks ago "someone" from another guild that I do not care for(Personal reasons) decided to spread a lie to 3 of my guildmates. For the sole purpose to get these three to join their guild. I do not have issues with anyone leaving my guild, but to have lies spread about something I NEVER said is a bit much. These guildies took this persons word before even bothering to ask me, even though we all made up and they later admitted that they I would never lie to them or talk smack about them. That they should have just asked me personally, they know I don't lie but were so upset they just turned and walked away. It all came about from someone I talked to "misunderstanding" a convo I had with them. From me saying "I am not ready to lead my guild through any raid because I am not familar enough with them to put my guild through a failed raid" To somehow being: "My guildmates are all a bunch of morons and I have no desire to lead a bunch of stupid newbies through a raid" See how a person or guild leader would be a wee bit upset at something like that?

So we have a person from outside your guild whose behaviour you didn't like. And we have three of your own guildies whose behaviour you didn't like. Before you come back and defend them, please carefully consider your own quote above. You can't have been happy with them just walking away without talking to you first. Either your guildies don't hold you in the lofty respect you think they do, or their behaviour was bad. So that brings us to a total of twelve people so far who you have had issues with. Perhaps your expectations of what constitues good/bad behaviour are a little different to the rest of the online community that play DDO?

About raid loot. For the record, I could give a rats behind about raid loot for myself. Never cared for any, never will. Is raid loot nice to have? Sure. But I will not obsess over raid loot or go out of my way for it. If it is a tome my toon could use, of course I will take it. Other than a tome, I am usually yawning at any other raid loot that might drop for me. Now, I fully agree any raid loot that drops for someone in a chest is theirs completely to do as they please. I like the new system because of the past, the "Leader" of a Raid almost ALWAYS tilted raid loot chances towards his or her guildmates. We all know that is how it was. No more pretending it was not set up unfairly to all us Pugs in a raid. That being said, if something drops in a raid there is nothing wrong with asking politely if they could roll for it. Or even asking innocently if they were suppose to roll for it at all. Now again, what yours in a chest is yours. No agruement there. <<SNIP>>

Glad we are agreed that raid loot is for the owner to use/dispose of/sell/give away/leave in the chest as he or she sees fit. As to asking for something politely, that depends. I was brought up not to ask for things that were not offered to you in a case like this. Why is it ok to do it for raid loot, yet we don't do it for every chest? Do you routinely see people pull items from chests you can use and ask them to give the item to you? Would you do it in pop if someone pulled a vorpal? Would you just up and ask him to hand it over as you have a character who can use it? You don't think that would be rude if someone did it to you? Different story if someone asks the group if anyone can use the item, then say yes by all means. As to asking innocently if you should roll at all, I fail to see how that works. ANyone who knows that a roll mechanic is how raid loot is usually assigned can not be innocent of what they are asking. Once again, you are flogging a week dead horse here, referring back to an incident that has already been disucussed ad nauseum.

<<SNIP>>
Yelling, mocking, cussing, etc is not really needed when someone asks politely IF they were suppose to roll for it. Not knowing what the owner was going to do with it, if anything at all. I always say, there is no harm in asking. Its different if it was me being yelled at. I have some tough skin. Growing up with tons of brothers kind of does that. You could cuss at me all day and it wouldn't faze me one bit. Now, carring on like that when you don't know if the other players might be ladies or KIDS. In fact, acting like that in any party is un-called for period. Kids play this game, you just don't know who you are really playing with.

Your story seems to have changed somewhat. You have now added yelling and cussing to the list of crimes. Crusade on! As I said above, there can be harm in asking for something that isn't yours. I would consider it rude for you to ask me for an item I pulled out of a chest unless it was something I couldn't use. Even then, I personally wouldn't ask for an item out of a chest as the person pulling it probably has an alt who can use it. You claim to have a thick skin and to not be easily offended, yet gave examples above where twelve people upset you in four different instances? Which is it? Tough skinned or hyper sensitive? As to cussing in front of ladies and/or children, the ladies of the 21st century are quite capable of defending themselves, and kids are generally supervised by adults who can take care of them. I am not condoning anyone swearing in front of ladies or children, and if it happened in front of me I would take action. My action would be to report the offender via the ingame reporting function, and to remove myself and others from that users presence. I certainly wouldn't remain in a quest for 45 minutes where further abuse might be forthcoming.

I know you might find it hard to believe that people are purposely out to destroy my threads. Yet is by no means a stretch of the truth to understand it does in fact happen here. All the time. There are a few people who's sole purpose is to destroy threads which they are mighty proud of doing. The fact many of my threads were closed by the same exact people each time doing the same exact flaming just to close my threads is very real. I am not well liked from awhile ago when I posted about plat farmers. Those who did not share my opinion of plat farmers being a bane to this game had no problem taking their dim veiw of my opinions into the game to harrasse AND try to get my account banned outright. Purposely making a toon to "appear" like a plat farmer just to claim we "harrassed" him. When we spotted him and knew right away what he was trying to do and knew he was not a real plat farmer, he actually got mad because we ignored him! As my brother and I were sitting around talking about family matters, this person proceeds to send private messages to my brother claiming my brother was "harrassing" him and he was getting in touch with a GM to report him. My brother was confused and thought this guy was off his rocker. Neither one of us were going to take his bait and when we didn't, this person tried to threaten us. Nice aint it? <<SNIP>>

So we are now up to a total of thirteen people, and of course the numerous players who you suspect of being plat farmers. Was your brother in fact contacted by a GM for harassment? If so, that is something you should bring up. Or was it actually just another player sending you or your brother /tells? In this case, once again (I bet you can guess what I'm going to say) you can use the /squelch command. Problem solved. If he persists, you can (come on, take a guess) report said user for harassment.

<<SNIP>>So I sent him a private tell asking what his problem was and why he was harrassing my brother. It is the right thing to do since he is my brother but I am also the guild leader. I have to take the lead and try to resolve the matter. Well, this person proceeds to tell me this was not my problem and that he was reporting me also. I responded one more time, if he decided to do that it was fine but he also needed to be reminded that all chat is recorded and a GM will see the truth of his claims. If they were not true HE would be in trouble himself. He quickly made some comment like "Ok, whatever. You both suck" kind of statement and logged off. He was in the wrong and he knew it. That kind of behavior my brother and I have come to expect in the forums and in-game. We are getting use to it.<<SNIP>>

Once again, you seem to be on a mission to be the Avenging Crusader or something? Why did you deal with it? Why not just report bad behaviour to the GMs? You are not empowered to actually enforce or moderate anything in the game. By sending that user a tell, you inflame the situation and provoke further response from him. You seem to be aware of the fact that communication between players is recorded, so why did you not contact a GM and let them deal with it?

<<SNIP>>In-game help from GM's: Do I really need to explain the lack of help from ANY GM in-game about any issue. I think we all have about the same lack of help from them so I rarely have faith in their "help". I don't send tickets in to report harrassement or anything else, not for the reason I described. No, I would like to think people will change and not act horrible. <<SNIP>>

I disagree with you on this one. The support from the GMs is slow at times, but has almost always been good when they finally get to you, in my opinion anyway. I would just like to point out that by not reporting bad behaviour or cheating within the game, you are passively adding to the problem. Evil thrives while good men stand idle. Report them. When it happens enough, they go away one way or the other. Then others learn by seeing that they are not around. Crusading all by yourself to change the world doesn't work. John Lennon also wanted people to change and not act horrible. Didn't work for him either.

<<SNIP>>I personally do not want to see anyone banned for things. Even plat buyers. Do I like them? No. But our player base is slowly shrinking. Loosing another one for any reason is not the answer to the problem. It also goes to treating new or newer players better. If we who think we are all "elite" or experienced would stop treating newbies like trash they may not leave the game because of this unfriendly behaviour. It does not take much to show a bit of kindness to new players and old alike to encourage more players to sticking around here. The more the merrier. The more money in Turbine's pocket, the more content we might get like we ALL want.

What? You don't want to see players removed from game for cheating or for bad behaviour. You also don't want to see them blacklisted. So, one more time, What DO you want the rest of the community to do after reading your long posts on bad behaviour? Is it just a public service anouncement letting us know these things happen? Are you appealing to the bad men to stop being bad? What are you hoping for as a reaction to your threads?!?!?!?

And no, I have never been harrassed to the point that I would actually care enough about it. If I did, I would have quit long ago.

Then why in the name of all that is holy do you continue to spam the boards with threads about these things? If they don't matter at all to you, go back into the game and play. Of course, if you follow my advice and hold the same attitude you seem to have now I suspect you will soon have a /squelch list longer than my arm, and a very, very small pool of players to group with.

[Altarboy]

Trolling...posting something you know will provoke others. Seems like that is exactly what this thread is.

Meh, if people disagree with you, so what? Getting all worked up and posting threads like this isn't hurting anyone but yourself. Take sometime to read your op over and ask yourself what it's really accomplishing. Not what it was intended to accomplish, but what it really is accomplishing.

I don't doubt that you enjoy a good debate, when done respectfully. I have experienced that with you myself. I have seen you effectively bring peace to frustrating threads. But this thread has strong under tones of anger and closed mindedness towards others that many of the words posted here ring hollow. I see the point you want to make, but fear you have hurt that goal more than anything else in this thread.

Well said

[Altarboy]

....... Reread what you just said... YOU just called them the mentally handicapped...

LOL bro...just choked on my coffee

[Altarboy]

Cuchilo, well said. That was great. From the way you pointed out things, I believe he's going to start doing solo only quests!

Ditto...wish I could concentrate long enough to break it up like that....oh look something shiny....scampers off

[Tolero]

The following behavior is prohibited on the forums, and I dare say each and every one of these has been broken in the course of this thread:

- Name calling
- Insulting others
- Responding to trolling posts
- Discussion of politics
- Posting with the intent of provoking other users
- Reposting closed discussions
- Bringing disagreements across multiple threads

Additionally:

• "Avoid So & So" style posts are prohibited on the forums (see the following thread)
• If you are at odds with another user, you are to use the forum's "ignore" feature
• If you feel a user's post is in violation of forum guidelines, you are to use the "reported post" feature

In short, our forum guidelines require that you be respectful to one another, and if you can't be respectful to one another, ignore one another.

Additionally, the following is not justification for a post that violates forum guidelines:

"He/she started it"
"Everyone else was doing it"
"I'm not a tattle tale"
"I don't like him/her"
"Nobody likes him/her anyway"
...and so on

There is never a permissible reason to make a post that is in violation of forum guidelines. Metaphorically speaking, I don't care who started the fight, you're all going to the principals office.