Casters vs Melee

[Emili]

Actually you are off on the mnemonic potion part there glass, I can get one as an end reward at least 2/3 of the time as an end reward on a caster provided I have checked the end rewards based upon class selection and I have yet to see any +6 stat item show up on my end rewrds list nearly as often....

Aye, I agree, I take the mana potion on the end reward list quite often because it pops so much... over the past year I'd estimate at least 100-200 of them between my cleric, bard and wizard... in fact I think I've got them before on my ranger and pally - not quite sure. In comparison I have 3 +6 str belts, 1 +6 con necklace, 3 +6 cha cloaks, 2 +6 dex boots, I've not been so lucky to find a +6 wisdom item as of yet... however I bet I've run across least 10 or more +6 int goggles.

I used to get enough mana potions together and sell them on the ah... however anymore I keep them.

I do believe Glass' post though an exageration just intended to show they're not as common as a healing potion, which they by far are not.

I will state a few things though... from a wizards perspective... not a sorc. If the caster is put into the role of party support thru buffs - such as a wizard who general is because they cannot deny they have the buff in thier spell lists;-) It generally regulates them into a more passive role thru more of the quest because they wish to manage thier sp pools. Most sorc do not have this same problem as they're not neccessarily key buffers. When alone or short-maned the SP pool actually becomes more viable on a wizard for DPS... thus you can take a more active role in the group just by limiting the number of other classes who may ask for a buff.

I do not advocate any nerfing to any class... but i do forsee a problem unfolding in the future, and what we do see is it's just starting to unfold. This is a fact... Arcane casters will get more DPS power from this point forward... melee will not - unless they pass it out through items... the BaB goes up on melee and the number of attacks also (but they've already showed they're slowing them down - more attacks = less over same period of time)... however the damage per attack will not rise really - by just a few points ie.) +2 more str and +2 for mighty rage. While it's true other classes have incoming feats ... ie a fighter has 5 more coming to 20. None of them attribute to dps in any great resort. Whereas the arcane also get 3 feats coming but also about 100sp per level and 2 more levels of spells. I do not know if you think of it this way or not... but every spell in your list is comparable to a feat or a weapon.

[maddmatt70]

It will be said over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again: this will cause many casual gamers to leave.

You seem very angry man.. I would say you are the troll..

I think if the next mod is like the current mod many casual players who like to play melee will leave. I dont know about nerfing anything I just dont like it if every quest becomes like GOP and that is what alot of the mod5 quests are like. I dont care about uberness of anything, but I do like to contribute to a party just like anybody else... I don't play my fighter nearly as much i.e. he is not logged in as much as I would like to because well my bards and my cleric are just more effective in the new quests (my wiz of course is also very effective but i prefer my bards and my cleric)......

[MysticTheurge]

Actually you are off on the mnemonic potion part there glass, I can get one as an end reward at least 2/3 of the time as an end reward on a caster provided I have checked the end rewards based upon class selection and I have yet to see any +6 stat item show up on my end rewrds list nearly as often....

While I don't agree they're as rare as a +6 stat item, I do feel the need to point out what you're giving up by taking the mnemonic. Especially in comparison to what a non-caster gives up to get a healing potion.

This has consistently been one of my complaints when it comes to the question of caster v. noncaster. As a caster, you're mostly worrying about your spell points. As a noncaster, the "limited resource" you have is hit points, or at least it would be in D&D.

But DDO makes methods of recovering hit points (cure potions, wands, clickies like the Brass Beaver) relatively easy to come by and/or stock up on, but methods of recovering spell points (mnemonics, spell storing ring) are much harder to come by and, in the case of the ring, "exclusive."

Now, I understand that without a limit on caster SPs you get into problem territory (we can already see this with "recalling for SPs"), but if you're going to apply that logic to SPs you ought to apply similar logic to HPs. Methods of recovering HPs just shouldn't be as readily available as they are in DDO today.

[Hvymetal]

While I don't agree they're as rare as a +6 stat item, I do feel the need to point out what you're giving up by taking the mnemonic. Especially in comparison to what a non-caster gives up to get a healing potion.

This has consistently been one of my complaints when it comes to the question of caster v. noncaster. As a caster, you're mostly worrying about your spell points. As a noncaster, the "limited resource" you have is hit points, or at least it would be in D&D.

But DDO makes methods of recovering hit points (cure potions, wands, clickies like the Brass Beaver) relatively easy to come by and/or stock up on, but methods of recovering spell points (mnemonics, spell storing ring) are much harder to come by and, in the case of the ring, "exclusive."

Now, I understand that without a limit on caster SPs you get into problem territory (we can already see this with "recalling for SPs"), but if you're going to apply that logic to SPs you ought to apply similar logic to HPs. Methods of recovering HPs just shouldn't be as readily available as they are in DDO today.

True, but I would also argue that a caster class is not nearly AS gear dependent, so in actuality most of them are giving up cash, same as a melee that get's an item on their end reward list that they will use.

[MysticTheurge]

True, but I would also argue that a caster class is not nearly AS gear dependent, so in actuality most of them are giving up cash, same as a melee that get's an item on their end reward list that they will use.

While you're right that casters are less gear-dependent, they do still need some things.

But that aside, you'd have a tough time convincing me that a consumable item (like a mnemonic) to a non-consumable item (like a weapon) are really comparable.

[brshelton]

well now that i have your attention, hehe let me share a little observation i noticed last night while questing.

First the back ground..

There seems to be a lot of comments along the lines of casters AOE spells should be made to effect party memebers, to make it in line with PnP rules etc...

ok.. i can see that, BUT....

1/ When was the last time you where in a PnP dungeon quest and the GM let you swing that very large greatsword inside that 3foot wide tunnel?

2/ When was the last time in a PnP quest that you all stood FACING one enemy (ie you all have him boxed in) and the GM let you all swing at him with those large greatswords WITHOUT CAUSING EACH OFF YOU TO GET HIT BY EACH OTHERS SWORDS!

3/ When was the last time in a PnP quest when the GM let you all stand on top of each other and attack with your swords all at the same time using all your special moves in very tight spaces without any of you taking damae from each others attacks?

Now these where just observations i noted that suddenly jumped out at me as i was playing my melee rogue, and yeah we all stand on top of each other swinging madly at creatures with our swords. If you want damage from casters spells to effect party members then we MUST HAVE the corresponding balance of melees causing damage as well, then add in the weapon restrictions based on dungeon size etc..

Do you tanks really want that? do you want to be forced to use daggers in small areas? do you want to lose your melee specials as well due to space restrictions?

sure it'd fanatastic to have this level of game play in the game and i do like the idea.. BUT... in a MMO i cant see how it would ever work out.
How many of you would get so utterly frustrated and quite that when ever you go to attack you get a message "unable to attack with that weapon in this place, choose a smaller weapon"
or then theres the "wheres the healer? i'm getting wasted here" only to hear back, sorry none of us is joining you while you swing that greatsword around in that confinded space, you'll kill us as well!

You call for nerfs to casters, but many of us casters play melees as well, if we call for nerfs to melees well many of us melees play casters also.
you get the point?
By nerfing one class you only hurting YOURSELF as at some time you might want to play the class your calling to get nerfed.

Lets play this game as it is. A TEAM game requiring TEAM players to play in a TEAM utilizing each others strenghts to cover each others weaknesses.

Now thats real D&D there. a TEAM game!

my best DnD moment was when the sorcerer cast Disrupt Undead on a skeleton and missed it. Well behind him was another player! He rolled and disrupt undead hit him lol. I as the GM decided seeing as how it was positive energy it healed him. Was priceless.

[issiana]

well my caster has the grand total of 5 of the good mana potions. i don't use them unless its a case of use or wipe simply because they just dont get offered to me. Now maybe its a bug but when my sorc was listed as class only rewards they NEVER showed, after switching to random (someone told me they showed up as wizard end rewards!) i started to see them as offer.

Mana potions from my experiences are very rare and not to be used unless you really need to.

[Hvymetal]

While you're right that casters are less gear-dependent, they do still need some things.

But that aside, you'd have a tough time convincing me that a consumable item (like a mnemonic) to a non-consumable item (like a weapon) are really comparable.

Actually not really comparing them, they really aren't but was trying to point out the obvious exageration on glass's part.

[Missing_Minds]

While you're right that casters are less gear-dependent, they do still need some things.

But that aside, you'd have a tough time convincing me that a consumable item (like a mnemonic) to a non-consumable item (like a weapon) are really comparable.

If weapons broke and were useless, un repairable, etc. after say 5 quests. Then I'd agree, but as a player of casters and melees, I hate it when my "item" is replaced by a 'potion' even a semi useful one.

Emm.. raid chest and I get... a neumonic and rocks. yeah, that is raid quality loot for you. bleh.

[Taojeff]

If you guys think nothing needs to be done, we can always just wait and see how low the server population gets in the next two quarters of the year when many new games are coming out. A lot of people are bored and unhappy about the current balance. Ignore it now you might find yourself looking for people to play with.

[MysticTheurge]

If you guys think nothing needs to be done, we can always just wait and see how low the server population gets in the next two quarters of the year when many new games are coming out. A lot of people are bored and unhappy about the current balance. Ignore it now you might find yourself looking for people to play with.

DDOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!

[Taojeff]

DDOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!

That doom is too big, try



DOOOOOMMMM!!!!

I am sure they will struggle on for at least another year.

[Missing_Minds]

If you guys think nothing needs to be done, we can always just wait and see how low the server population gets in the next two quarters of the year when many new games are coming out. A lot of people are bored and unhappy about the current balance. Ignore it now you might find yourself looking for people to play with.

lets see how good you are with your facts shall we. What is your average MMO life span?

[bellack]

It was supposed to be a little absurd.

It's still valid to say that by adding all the extra stuff like magic (or power if I remember right) and healing for all classes it just doesn't feel like D&D. Each class is supposed to have their niche, this "seems" like it takes that away to a certain degree. I hope it plays differently thought.

I also don't like the the removal of the save or die spells. That also seems like an overly drastic change.

I do like some of the things that I've read about 4.0 just not what they are doing with the classes.

Yea they are making D&D less of a challange with out the save or die spells. And I also don't like the class changes. 3.5 in my opinon is the best incarnation of D&D and my group and I will stick with it. We may try 4.0 to see how it plays but from what I have read I doubt I will per it over 3.5

[Taojeff]

Maybe we should just wait till 4.0 is out, hey wait isnt there like a different thread for this?

[bellack]

well my caster has the grand total of 5 of the good mana potions. i don't use them unless its a case of use or wipe simply because they just dont get offered to me. Now maybe its a bug but when my sorc was listed as class only rewards they NEVER showed, after switching to random (someone told me they showed up as wizard end rewards!) i started to see them as offer.

Mana potions from my experiences are very rare and not to be used unless you really need to.

I have to agree I rarly see the mana potions in the game for any of my characters. I have the following:
Paladin 8th
Fighter/Wizard 2/2
Bard 6th
Cleric 2
Rogue 4th
sorceror - 2

Now I do have the class specific items seleted in options. But when I do get an end reward I rarly pick a consumable. Saying that I have only seen 2 end rewards that were Mana potions (1 on the Bard the other the Paladin) but they were the minor potion.
Most of the time I buy the potions if I have the money but this is hard for my Wizard/Fighter because most of the money is used buy scrbing materials and spell componets. I don't buy from farmers so I don't make a lot of money

[Hvymetal]

lets see how good you are with your facts shall we. What is your average MMO life span?

That would depend upon what you mean by average MMO, and what you consider still living, after all UO, EQ1 & AC are all still chugging along (perhaps not much life left but still alive) so to answer your question I would say that MMO's have not yet been around long enough to know what an average MMO's lifespan really is....